Commercially successful Jaguar

[JagChris]

 

Ah, so we'll just completely ignore that bat-shit crazy rant out of nowhere you went on in the RMAC thread shall we?

 

Last time I admitted a mistake? Check the 'bugs' section in the RAPTOR forum... Gosh! If I was perfect, that section wouldn't even exist.

 

That's because I'm bat-shit crazy and I got pants on my head!!

 

And that bugs section in the Raptor forum is a good start, a small small step forward on your journey to a well-rounded CJ.

[+CyranoJ]

 

That's because I'm bat-shit crazy and I got pants on my head!!

 

And that bugs section in the Raptor forum is a good start, a small small step forward on your journey to a well-rounded CJ.

 

Well, now that I have your blessing I'll rest much easier......

 

In the meantime - please, please continue to ignore me, this thread, this entire forum, the world around you, and reality itself.

[Eyemsougly]

 

Fight for Life is not a good example of anything, and who really cares about extra chips? If a console can make use of extra chips in a cartridge and it uses them for more powerful games, it still counts. Regardless, I wouldn't even call the Jaguar the best hardware on the market until the Saturn. I'd argue based on the software we got that the 3DO was the technologically superior platform. Again, I'm of the mind don't tell me what the specs are on paper, show me in the software. The 3DO easily showed off more power in the software in my opinion.

 

Have you seen the finished Fight for Life game that was recently released? It was almost as good as Saturn's Virtua Fighter.

 

When game makers start sticking extra chips in their cartridges, it is because the console itself is nearing it's end and the game makers are trying to max out the consoles capability. Cybermorph, IronSoldier, Superburnout and Fight for Life were done by 2nd rate developers early on in the console's life and were technically superior to the absolute best things the Genesis and SNES could produce at the end of their lives, with extra chips and the most elite game companies.

 

Arguing that the 3DO is technically superior to the Jaguar is a legitimate (although I think probably incorrect) opinion but arguing that the Jaguar is not superior to hardware to the Genesis or SNES is not. The Jag is a legit 5th generation as even it's half assed, crappy library of games made by 3 man development teams clearly demonstrates.

[Warzard]

IMO, the only way for the Jag to have been successful is if Atari Games was in charge of the console side and arcade side and Corp was only in charge of the computer side. A lot of smart, creative, and resourceful people worked at Atari Games and I could easily see them taming the buggy beast that was the Jag with good tools or a redesign. Also, they would have had exclusive games based on their arcade titles. So there you go.

[+remowilliams]

Have you seen the finished Fight for Life game that was recently released? It was almost as good as Saturn's Virtua Fighter.

 

Troll confirmed.

[JagChris]

 

Out of curiosity, based on the sales figures we know of that are fact, i.e., the 125,000 sold through the end of 1995 and another 100,000 sitting in warehouses that eventually went out when it was liquidated, what target sales figure would you consider for it to be a "niche success." Frankly, with the total units the Jaguar actually sold, it wouldn't even be considered a particularly successful SINGLE game on other platforms, let alone a sustainable business model for a CONSOLE where even selling a few million units (MANY multiples of what the Jaguar sold even when liquidated) is a failure. Again, the Jaguar was probably the least successful of the major console releases, so it's a big stretch to envision success scenarios for it. Atari would have had to have been an especially lean, smart organization, one laser focused on just the console itself and who greelit and saw through to completion truly compelling game concepts. That's a lot to ask of any company, let alone a post-Crash Atari.

 

I thought there was another batch beyond the 100k. I remember a few years ago someone talking about a warehouse in germany with another shitload of them. But anyhow perhaps if they had done smarter choices that sold more units it would have been enough to produce more and sell more. A critical mass could have been reached. If they had made smart choice to where inventory had sold out and they needed money to produce more perhaps IBM seeing some kind of profit from it could have continued producing. And/or they could have went for corporate welfare.

 

 

Regardless, I wouldn't even call the Jaguar the best hardware on the market until the Saturn. I'd argue based on the software we got that the 3DO was the technologically superior platform. Again, I'm of the mind don't tell me what the specs are on paper, show me in the software. The 3DO easily showed off more power in the software in my opinion.

 

And the above could have been affected by Atari making better choices. IMO one would have been paying attention to developers like Scatologic and High Voltage Software. HVS were about ready to pitch to Atari the new development setup they had created based on the risc c compiler Atari had that they thought was unfixably buggy. IMO just reading about what it did and what it streamlined and made transparent for developers it may have changed the landscape significantly. But Atari folded right before HVS was able to pitch it to them.

 

And it seems that even by Carmacks estimation the Jaguar was not that far behind the PSX. I believe Carmack said if the Jaguar had a small cache on the blitter it would have been able to run with the original playstation? He doesn't say the Jaguar needs faster or newer processors just that it needs a little more memory. What was it like 90k or something he recommended? That is not even the 1mb vram the PSX has. And he seems to think that's all that would be needed to give the PSX a run. Though I can't remember verbatim what he said it is still amazing considering the Jaguar chips were finalized in 91?

 

But woulda coulda shoulda. Blah. We have what we have.

[+madman]

 

Troll confirmed.

Yep, plenty of his posts confirm that he's a troll.

[Bill Loguidice]

 

Have you seen the finished Fight for Life game that was recently released? It was almost as good as Saturn's Virtua Fighter.

 

When game makers start sticking extra chips in their cartridges, it is because the console itself is nearing it's end and the game makers are trying to max out the consoles capability. Cybermorph, IronSoldier, Superburnout and Fight for Life were done by 2nd rate developers early on in the console's life and were technically superior to the absolute best things the Genesis and SNES could produce at the end of their lives, with extra chips and the most elite game companies.

 

Arguing that the 3DO is technically superior to the Jaguar is a legitimate (although I think probably incorrect) opinion but arguing that the Jaguar is not superior to hardware to the Genesis or SNES is not. The Jag is a legit 5th generation as even it's half assed, crappy library of games made by 3 man development teams clearly demonstrates.

 

I would love to see this amazing version of Fight for Life you're referring to, because whether it's the released game or the "superior" beta, it falls far short of Virtua Fighter quality. I have serious doubts that the Jaguar could create anything approaching even the buggy first release of Virtua Fighter (obviously, we're not talking the superior Virtua Fighter Remix) on the Saturn even with the best developers working on it. It's simply not the type of game that plays to the platform's strengths.

 

I wasn't arguing that the Jaguar was not superior to the Genesis and SNES. Your statement was it was the most powerful hardware until the release of the Saturn. I disagreed based on what we saw out of the 3DO, which itself has a library (albeit much larger) of hit or miss (and optimized and unoptimized) titles. In actual games released, the power of the 3DO was clearly demonstrated and in my opinion clearly demonstrated to be superior. I'm of course not going to say that the Jaguar couldn't compete and/or win in most areas, but the reality is I don't believe we've really seen it do so, particularly since there are so many more titles on the 3DO that showcase its various capabilities.

[Bill Loguidice]

And it seems that even by Carmacks estimation the Jaguar was not that far behind the PSX. I believe Carmack said if the Jaguar had a small cache on the blitter it would have been able to run with the original playstation? He doesn't say the Jaguar needs faster or newer processors just that it needs a little more memory. What was it like 90k or something he recommended? That is not even the 1mb vram the PSX has. And he seems to think that's all that would be needed to give the PSX a run. Though I can't remember verbatim what he said it is still amazing considering the Jaguar chips were finalized in 91?

 

But woulda coulda shoulda. Blah. We have what we have.

 

If he did say something to that effect, I'm sure it was in one particular technical aspect. It also doesn't say much if he said "with the addition of x in the hardware from the design phase," because you can only work with what the actual capabilities of the hardware are. That's like saying if the PS1 has 8MB instead of 4MB it would have had arcade perfect 2D fighters. Sure, but it only had the 4MB to work with.

[Eyemsougly]

If we are talking about actually released software I agree that the 3DO appeared better, but do you seriously think 3DO games would have looked that good if they had the level of 3rd party support that the Jaguar did? It just isn't a level playing field.

 

I remember being very impressed when I first saw Fight for Life beta but this thread inspired me to go take another look at it and it was pretty terrible so please forget I mentioned it.

[JagChris]

 

If he did say something to that effect, I'm sure it was in one particular technical aspect. It also doesn't say much if he said "with the addition of x in the hardware from the design phase," because you can only work with what the actual capabilities of the hardware are. That's like saying if the PS1 has 8MB instead of 4MB it would have had arcade perfect 2D fighters. Sure, but it only had the 4MB to work with.

 

 

The 'one particular technical aspect' appears to have been all that was needed for Carmack to feel it would have given the PSX a run for its money in general.

 

And considering Carmack felt it only needed 100k more memory rather than a whole mb more memory to keep up with the PSX then the Jaguar's potential as-is perhaps isn't as far behind the PSX as everyone thinks.

[+CyranoJ]

 

 

The 'one particular technical aspect' appears to have been all that was needed for Carmack to feel it would have given the PSX a run for its money in general.

 

And considering Carmack felt it only needed 100k more memory rather than a whole mb more memory to keep up with the PSX then the Jaguar's potential as-is perhaps isn't as far behind the PSX as everyone thinks.

 

100k or so LOCAL SCRATCH RAM IN THE GPU, not 100k of RAM. Again, grasp reality before commenting out of your depth.

[NeoGeoNinja]

No way that Iron Soldier, Superburnout, Cybermorph or Fight for Life could have been done on the SNES or Genesis without an extra chip in the cartridge and perhaps even with it. When the Jaguar was released it was the best hardware on the market until the Saturn came out 2 years later.

 

Depends which way you look at all this.

 

Technically, the Saturn & PS1 hardware was available from Japan, only 1 year AFTER the Jag released. On the same technicality, the Jaguar was released in Japan 1 year AFTER it launched in the US. Therefore, either territory had the option to import either hardware 12 months earlier.

 

I agree that what the Jag achieved in its small inter-generational window (re: titles quoted) couldn't have been as well created on the SNES, even using Super FX. I do think that based on the Super FX titles available though, that versions of those games - although lesser - could have been realised. Esp. Cybermorph. Although FFL is a woeful game, I think that would have been respectfully unachievable though vs the others. IS would have been nowhere near as good either... BUT I think 'a' Cybermorph would have been doable (See: StarFox 2 & Vortex)

 

However, Bill is right. The 3DO - regardless of price - was the best hardware on the console market up until Saturn & PS1 launched. Concerning price, the Jaguar was the best hardware on the market at that time, at nearly 1/3 of 3DO's RRP.

[NeoGeoNinja]

p.s. there have been a LOT of f*cking posts since I started typing that up

[Thorsten Günther]

Comparing any Jaguar 3D racing game to Rage Racer/RR4/GT/GT2, any Jaguar 3D FPS to Quake II, etc., reveals the Jaguar is miles behind the PSX - the only area where it even comes close is 2D, so Atari officials' "no 2D" attitude did not exactly support the Jaguar.

[NeoGeoNinja]

...so Atari officials' "no 2D" attitude did not exactly support the Jaguar.

 

Really? Is that true?

 

As HALF of the Jaguar's library is 2D

[JagChris]

 

100k or so LOCAL SCRATCH RAM IN THE GPU, not 100k of RAM. Again, grasp reality before commenting out of your depth.

 

I thought he said blitter. And though I didn't specifically say on the blitter that time in that particular sentence I do believe it should have been inferred.

 

Oh shit CJ go to bed. Or go back to bed. Or whatever.

Edited March 8, 2015 by JagChris

[+CyranoJ]

 

I thought he said blitter. And though I didn't specifically say on the blitter that time in that particular sentence I do believe it should have been inferred.

 

Oh hey and speaking of grasping reality before speaking out of your depth why don't you talk crap about and scoff at the achievements the Battlesphere developers did some more. All us reasonable people get a big kick out of that.

 

OK, lets see what they achieved...

 

One game in 20 years - check

Network card - developer quit due to Scato (MAC address bullshit) - check

Impossibly high cost of game due to ridiculous demands and not making another run - check

Cashing in on impossibly high cost og game by 'finding another box under my bed' syndrome - check

Impossible claims on the box regarding how it runs - check

Non-disclosure and general ego-wanking about DSP-link bug-fix - check

Running a whole forum dedicated to bashing people they didn't agree with - check

Scene development halted for over a decade due to 'piracy bullshit' - check

Skunkboard BIOS crippling due to said 'piracy bullshit' - check (name one other console with such lockouts...)

 

I'm sure there's more - but, ya know, the fact that they're all banned says an awful lot about them. Don't swing too hard there JC, you might cause one of them groin strain.

 

PS. A blitter doesn't need RAM. Something you'd know if you had a clue about anything.

Edited March 8, 2015 by CyranoJ

[Willard]

The saturn launched at 44,800 yen in '94 (roughly equivalent to $457 usd at the time). ¥39,800 for the PS1 ($406 USD), both launched about a year later in north america at $400 and $300 respectively. The Jaguar was launched at $250 with a pack-in.

 

The Jaguar certainly had a year disadvantage against the tech of the PSX and Saturn but the tramiels also seemed to want to keep the system cost low to attract more buyers. I wonder if things would've been any better had they improved the tech a little and launched in the $300-$350 range so the specs were more comparable to the other next-gen consoles.

 

Of course, that wouldn't have been the only thing they would've had to have done better (as the games themselves were often lacking), but it might've helped attract buyers and third party support if the few games they released in the first year (AVP, Iron soldier, Cybermorph .etc) had used better tech and really blown people away.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Willard

[JagChris]

 

OK, lets see what they achieved...

 

One game in 20 years - check

Network card - developer quit due to Scato (MAC address bullshit) - check

Impossibly high cost of game due to ridiculous demands and not making another run - check

Cashing in on impossibly high cost og game by 'finding another box under my bed' syndrome - check

Impossible claims on the box regarding how it runs - check

Non-disclosure and general ego-wanking about DSP-link bug-fix - check

Running a whole forum dedicated to bashing people they didn't agree with - check

Scene development halted for over a decade due to 'piracy bullshit' - check

Skunkboard BIOS crippling due to said 'piracy bullshit' - check (name one other console with such lockouts...)

 

I'm sure there's more - but, ya know, the fact that they're all banned says an awful lot about them. Don't swing too hard there JC, you might cause one of them groin strain.

 

PS. A blitter doesn't need RAM. Something you'd know if you had a clue about anything.

 

As for the blitter thing I am trying to go by what I remember Carmack saying.

 

 

If the jaguar had dumped the 68k and offered a dynamic cache on the risc processors and had a tiny bit of buffering on the blitter, it could have put up a reasonable fight against sony

 

There you go chucklehead.

 

Now as for that line of B$ you are ranting about Scatologic since you've brought this all here, I can't believe you did this but haha you must have been stewing over something.

 

Development halted for ten years? Please. Crippled Skunkboard bios? You're kidding? How does it 'cripple it' besides stop it from running BS? Impossible claims on how it runs? Then match what they have achieved without using their 'impossible claims'.

 

CJ everyone knows you're jealous of them. Just let it go. I wish you hadn't seen what I wrote. I was irritated but tried to delete it. Just let it go.

Edited March 8, 2015 by JagChris

[+CyranoJ]

Now as for that line of B$ you are ranting about Scatologic since you've brought this all here, I can't believe you did this but haha you must have been stewing over something.

 

Development halted for ten years? Please. Crippled Skunkboard bios? You're kidding? How does it 'cripple it' besides stop it from running BS? Impossible claims on how it runs? Then match what they have achieved without using their 'impossible claims'.

 

CJ everyone knows you're jealous of them. Just let it go. I wish you hadn't seen what I wrote. I was irritated but tried to delete it. Just let it go.

 

LOLS. Jealous. Yup, that must be it. More clueless ranting, no shock there....

 

Maybe you need to open more debug windows

[JagChris]

 

LOLS. Jealous. Yup, that must be it. More clueless ranting, no shock there....

 

Maybe you need to open more debug windows

 

 

ok CJ let's chill out. In Carmacks statement he talks about needing a buffer on the blitter. If there is some other way of putting a buffer on the blitter without memory of some kind then please let me know. This is where instead of talking rudely or swinging a mistake or misunderstanding at someone like a weapon you step forward and say 'you're misunderstanding what he's referring to, let me explain.'

 

And then everything is cool. No need to get excited.

[+CyranoJ]

And then everything is cool. No need to get excited.

 

Until you go on another unrelated, disjointed rant about the evils of Reboot.

 

Its a bit disingenuous of you to say 'everything is cool' after your previous tirade. I doubt your sincerity in the matter. Did you think you would have 'carte blanche impunity' after that outburst?

 

Clearly you have an agenda.

Edited March 8, 2015 by CyranoJ

[JagChris]

 

 

[phoenixdownita]

Not sure how this degenerated in a piss contest between CJ and JC.

 

As I said before regarding the Jag commercial success: "If my grandmother had balls she would have been my grandfather".

 

Having said that, I doubt that small buffering in the blitter or some form of dynamic caching on the RISC alone would been "a fighting chance" .... also the quote reported states "reasonable fighting chance" ..... lemme me see, maybe like the Saturn (I doubt the Jag is anywhere close to be as powerful as the Saturn, is it that far off?, maybe not, but is it close in a meaningful way? .... not really) so I am not even sure what it means ... also there were already enough Doom/Doom clones as it was while the whole gaming experience was going 3D ("real" 3D, not simple raycasting) on a whole lot of genres (racing, fighting, adventures [Tomb Raider]) and 2.5D (arcades, shmups) and the industry also started using the CD media better (Resident Evil was something special back then as well as FF VII).

Likely the quote relates to Doom-clones kind of games which although popular to PC gamers where received less warmly by console players .... once you played one of those on a PC the console version was kind of mehhh .... not bad but not mind blowing.

 

 

Anyway CJ and JC keep going at it, eventually enough dirt would be public so we could all see what the heck are you two taking about.

 

[Personal note: I side with CJ, not that he needs my support, I just don't get JC argument, although he seems to believe he's been drinking from the source of truth I am afraid it's just Kool Aid]

Edited March 8, 2015 by phoenixdownita