José Pereira Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) YES, that is Mumbles. And no C64 also. Soo these games were indeed, as it seems coder/Databyte problems and not usual A8 small market because C64 would sell for sure. Edited March 7, 2015 by José Pereira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 Well Ron was active on the places up to last year so there's a chance he may well still be with us (I've no idea how old he is) and I've also invited him to this forum so with a little luck we will both get an answer and have a chin wag with the man himself. I'd imagine that Databyte was a one or two man team, their offices are tiny but occupied by a Data Agency these days.. I found a mention of Ron on Moby Games, sadly they are under the impression he wrote two games only..Not such a good site.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 YES, that is Mumbles. And no C64 also. Soo these games were indeed, as it seems coder/Databyte problems and not usual A8 small market because C64 would sell for sure. I doubt Databyte themselves had any real control on these titles as these were games precoded in the US and re-released here in the UK, I get the impression that simple mock ups or even conversations about the games were had and everything was built on them rather than an actual playable item. Hopefully if Ron Rosen comes on here or replies to me I might be able to get an answer re that Mumbles game as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 www.gamesthatwerent.com/gtw64/mumbles-superspy/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 One more and officially we had 3games from Databyte (this last one its a First Star Software one) that never get into A8 nor C64: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 www.gamesthatwerent.com/gtw64/mumbles-superspy/ Yup but its merely a picture / mockup, it actually looks like a picture of a printout / magazine page.. I doubt very much there was any real game.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
José Pereira Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 (edited) Oops sorry no link, now you have it: www.gamesthatwerent.com/gtw64/results/gy/0/gh/0/gc/Databyte/gco/0/ga/0/gs/0/go/0 @McLaneinc yes they are, all, but also was Polar Pierre and in the same magazine page as Polar Pierre and this one we had. On A8 we had soo many heard and adverts but no screens. In this case the screens seem true and are from people supporting Atari and that also C64 version didn't came soo we, at least me, are curious to know what happened... And the three are from 1984 that there was still A8 support and not 16bits around I think. Edited March 7, 2015 by José Pereira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 I'd posted this up a while back, but makes sense to put it in here as well: Trail basically gone stone cold with Databyte's Adam Caveman.Datatbyte was in effect 1 chap and his girlfriend (Tim Holland).Tims sadly dissapeared off the face of the earth it seems, as guy i recently interviewed, who once kept in contact with Tim, said both he and another guy he knew, ( a friend of Tim's) had'nt heard from him in ages, had no means to contact him, nor knew where he was. Only thing he could say was Tim really loved the A8 hardware.' So Databyte was in effect a tiny 'operation' and thus less sources to try and track down :-( Mock-up's used as advertising are common place (cough..Edge, Jaguar Tomb Raider), but then what would i know? lol, as it was once said of me, i was nothing but old magazines, not right in the head :-) It's not like, god forbid, i started actively looking into magazine claims for various sites, finding people, putting questions to them, discovering the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 Sorry in-joke there, Full Moon etc.It's just the 'Hard Hitting' Jurnolism line that appeared elsewhere jogged my memory of something and it fitted in with me looking into claims made in adverts, in news sections of magazines etc, rather than taking them at face value... Anywho..not relevant to this thread. Back on topic, if 'we' could put the likes of Adam Caveman and Mumbles 'to bed' as it were, i know GTW alone would be delighted. My fingers and toes are firmly crossed and i appreciate the work put in by others here to try and get an answer if possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 The version of the story i heard "back in the day" was that Acornsoft had insisted on a clause in the license that said the BBC version had to be superior to all others. That is most likely just rubbish and i forget if it came from someone who could potentially know (as a somewhat naive teen i visited both Firebird and a small dev house on the south east coast whilst trying to sell C64 code) or was just doing the rounds, but at the time it sort of made sense because Elite was one of Acornsoft's flagship games. The Atari demo looks good but it isn't as fast and flickers more than the BBC version. I realize this isn't the original Atari version and it could certainly be improved but it would take quite a bit to get it to measure up to the faster CPU of the BBC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesD Posted March 7, 2015 Share Posted March 7, 2015 http://www.iancgbell.clara.net/elite/demos/ Ian Bell's site gives credit to Mark for the demo creation for Atari. Really, if there was an Atari version made with any progress in the day I think it would have come to light now. Not necessarily a program find, but at least someone speaking up and shedding some truth on the matter. I think if there was any code available it probably would have been published. For anyone that has seen the original source it used the built in assembler on the BBC. It looks like BASIC with embedded assembly instructions and it would have taken quite a bit of time just to convert it to regular assembler. Trust me, I spent quite a bit of time trying to do that a few years back. I wouldn't be too surprised to find out the Atari developers spent some time doing the same thing and said the heck with this and left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted March 7, 2015 Author Share Posted March 7, 2015 James D made a great point earlier on about coders being brought in a what a task it can be to try and recover something usable from others code... Was'nt that the reason the Original Last Ninja was canned on the ZX Spectrum?.It'd originally been outsourced and despite being worked on for ages, coders encountered issues converting game to the ZX Spectrum, System 3 brought in Mev Dinc to salvage what he could and turn game around, he looked at it and said it'd be too big a task, System 3 would simply be better of canning the game there and then, saying it was'nt good enough etc, and he could get cracking on Spectrum version of Last Ninja II instead and have that ready to go alongside the C64 version etc. Supposing there was existing code and supposing Firebird did find willing coders...if they suggested a total re-write or said it'll take X amount of months to salvage and finish the game, Firebird might simply have looked at the shrinking A8 market and said it was'nt a commercially viable project anymore... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 There are some old threads which cover this: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/70485-acornsoftsfirebirds-a8-version-of-elite-etc/?hl=%2Bbell&do=findComment&comment=865606 http://atariage.com/forums/topic/31087-favorite-8-bit-game-never-ported-to-the-atari-series/page-2?hl=%2Bflicker&do=findComment&comment=358962 http://atariage.com/forums/topic/214148-where-can-i-find-the-latest-version-of-elite-wip-for-a8/?hl=%2Bbell&do=findComment&comment=2787465 http://atariage.com/forums/topic/149925-just-for-fun/?p=1971500 http://atariage.com/forums/topic/41309-survey-missing-milestones-on-the-atari-elite-sourcecode/?hl=%2Bbell&do=findComment&comment=495828 http://atariage.com/forums/topic/22546-elite-worries/?hl=%2Bbell&do=findComment&comment=249474 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 MArk... Any chance to get back to Elite? What about emulating bbc? More XXL job? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Personal coding motivation not with me for a long while now but perhaps around the summer I'll be a bit clearer on where I'm heading (I have a financial dispute resolution (FDR) appointment in a 1 week's time ). More of the substitute BBC OS routines in use (e.g. sound) could be added, people like PeteD had done this in the past or the likes of XXL & Fandal would have handled this in their ports. That would help the BBC version. Also the keyboard-repeat could be handled better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Damned RL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
am1933 Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 The Atari demo looks good but it isn't as fast and flickers more than the BBC version. I realize this isn't the original Atari version and it could certainly be improved but it would take quite a bit to get it to measure up to the faster CPU of the BBC. Not sure this is a very good comparison, that BBC micro version looks like the 2nd processor edition which ran faster, had more colours and ships etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Yes: I think that's the Master edition, if it makes a difference. This is recorded from a real Beeb: Still not much tearing on the wire-frame stuff though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Wright Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 I can remember reading several well-meaning letters published in Atari User and Page 6 (in the mid-80s) recommending Star Raiders (of 1979 vintage) as an alternative to (or superior to) Elite. A perfect example of why UK Atari owners were so often wryly referred to by UK video game journalists as "loyal". Secretly we all knew that we'd backed the wrong horse, betting the farm (+VAT; +import tax) in the process, now resigned to watching it fall at the first hurdle. But being British - by thunder - we stiffened our lips, secured our blinkers, and resolved to go forth and grumble quietly. As General Melchett said to Lieutenant George in Blackadder, "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." Impressive though it was in 1979, suggesting Star Raiders to someone seeking Elite, in 1986, is surely equivalent to offering a game of Snap to someone who wants to play Chess. But anyway. Think back. If Firebird *had* sought to release Elite for the Atari, it would have been farmed out to Mr Micro/Marjacq and done in a massive hurry to meet deadlines/expectations on likely return. It would've been yet another reason for detractors to laugh at our beloved machine. It would've been *shit*. To get someone competent on the case (Braben/Bell themselves?) would've cost too much in both time and finances... It was never planned. It was never worked on. It never existed. But hey - it's worth remembering that in the year that Elite emerged for platforms other than the BBC Micro, Atari owners were already enjoying the delights of "Chop Suey", "Astro Droid" and "Electric Starfish" - so yah booh sucks! A slight return: I can remember letters published in UK magazines aside from Atari User and Page 6, such as C+VG and Computer Gamer, from indignant Atari owners asking when Paperboy, Ghosts 'n' Goblins, Commando, 1942, Bubble Bobble (etc.) were going to be converted for their machine. The answer was inevitably never, and in hindsight, thank goodness they weren't. Think back. Imagine the disappointment you would've felt at being confronted - yet again - by a game where you were in control of a "sprite" that felt massively disconnected from, and weirdly superimposed against the rest of the action.. Your Paperboy, for example, would've eerily floated around the screen while everything else jerkilly juddered by, due to both programmer incompetence and arcane hardware limitations... It doesn't bear thinking about! My old Atari 800XL will forever be my first computer love, but its restrictions are manifold: the unmistakable Pokey FX in *any* shoot-em-up - "piaaawwwwwscchhhhhhhh"; oh it's THAT scrolling colour DLI yet again; aarrgh, the characters are drifting un-naturally around the screen, disjointed from everything else - arrrrrgh; wow - I've been given Gauntlet for Xmas - 25 minute tape load, brown and brown... more brown.. slow brown... slow down.. brown sound; in amongst the racks of the high street store stocking Uridium, Underwurlde, Last Ninja, Out Run, Monty on the Run and Skool Daze is... "Frenesis" by Tony Takoushi, for any Atari 8-bit... Well, setcolor me happy! No Elite? No shameful legacy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrathchild Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Not sure this is a very good comparison, that BBC micro version looks like the 2nd processor edition which ran faster, had more colours and ships etc. Its not worth a comparison as I'd left out the programming against the tearing/flickering which would have equated to a VCOUNT range check. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 the BBC if that is realspeed is impressive... only 8bit version I know is the c64 "fast" version and later Atari ST. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tickled_Pink Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I can remember reading several well-meaning letters published in Atari User and Page 6 (in the mid-80s) recommending Star Raiders (of 1979 vintage) as an alternative to (or superior to) Elite. A perfect example of why UK Atari owners were so often wryly referred to by UK video game journalists as "loyal". Secretly we all knew that we'd backed the wrong horse, betting the farm (+VAT; +import tax) in the process, now resigned to watching it fall at the first hurdle. But being British - by thunder - we stiffened our lips, secured our blinkers, and resolved to go forth and grumble quietly. As General Melchett said to Lieutenant George in Blackadder, "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through." Impressive though it was in 1979, suggesting Star Raiders to someone seeking Elite, in 1986, is surely equivalent to offering a game of Snap to someone who wants to play Chess. But anyway. Think back. If Firebird *had* sought to release Elite for the Atari, it would have been farmed out to Mr Micro/Marjacq and done in a massive hurry to meet deadlines/expectations on likely return. It would've been yet another reason for detractors to laugh at our beloved machine. It would've been *shit*. To get someone competent on the case (Braben/Bell themselves?) would've cost too much in both time and finances... It was never planned. It was never worked on. It never existed. But hey - it's worth remembering that in the year that Elite emerged for platforms other than the BBC Micro, Atari owners were already enjoying the delights of "Chop Suey", "Astro Droid" and "Electric Starfish" - so yah booh sucks! A slight return: I can remember letters published in UK magazines aside from Atari User and Page 6, such as C+VG and Computer Gamer, from indignant Atari owners asking when Paperboy, Ghosts 'n' Goblins, Commando, 1942, Bubble Bobble (etc.) were going to be converted for their machine. The answer was inevitably never, and in hindsight, thank goodness they weren't. Think back. Imagine the disappointment you would've felt at being confronted - yet again - by a game where you were in control of a "sprite" that felt massively disconnected from, and weirdly superimposed against the rest of the action.. Your Paperboy, for example, would've eerily floated around the screen while everything else jerkilly juddered by, due to both programmer incompetence and arcane hardware limitations... It doesn't bear thinking about! My old Atari 800XL will forever be my first computer love, but its restrictions are manifold: the unmistakable Pokey FX in *any* shoot-em-up - "piaaawwwwwscchhhhhhhh"; oh it's THAT scrolling colour DLI yet again; aarrgh, the characters are drifting un-naturally around the screen, disjointed from everything else - arrrrrgh; wow - I've been given Gauntlet for Xmas - 25 minute tape load, brown and brown... more brown.. slow brown... slow down.. brown sound; in amongst the racks of the high street store stocking Uridium, Underwurlde, Last Ninja, Out Run, Monty on the Run and Skool Daze is... "Frenesis" by Tony Takoushi, for any Atari 8-bit... Well, setcolor me happy! No Elite? No shameful legacy. Not entirely convinced. The biggest problem would have been a dearth of quality Atari coders at the time. If they could have found someone who knew the machine inside and out then it could have been done relatively quickly if they had access to the original BBC Micro 6502 code. I can think of very few programmers at the time, particularly in the UK (remember, no internet), who could have done the job. If you look at the speed that XXL seems to churn out projects once he gets started then A8 Elite would certainly doable in a fairly rapid timeframe. Although at the time Elite was seen as a major breakthrough, looking back now much of it wasn't that impressive in terms of coding. A lot was just very clever design that nobody had put into games before. Put together, it was a breathtaking achievement. To anyone who didn't know anything about programming, and to some who did, the galaxy maps and all that data would have looked impressive. However, theoretically they could have really pushed the boat out and had an almost indefinite number of galaxies (well, at least 65,536) without impacting on memory. I guess they did it the way that they did to speed things up between galaxy jumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Loguidice Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Although at the time Elite was seen as a major breakthrough, looking back now much of it wasn't that impressive in terms of coding. A lot was just very clever design that nobody had put into games before. Put together, it was a breathtaking achievement. To anyone who didn't know anything about programming, and to some who did, the galaxy maps and all that data would have looked impressive. However, theoretically they could have really pushed the boat out and had an almost indefinite number of galaxies (well, at least 65,536) without impacting on memory. I guess they did it the way that they did to speed things up between galaxy jumps. "This means that no extra memory is needed to store the characteristics of each planet, yet each is unique and has fixed properties. Each galaxy is also procedurally generated from the first. Braben and Bell at first intended to have 248 galaxies, but Acornsoft insisted on a smaller universe to hide the galaxies' mathematical origins." http://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/oct/18/features.weekend 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tickled_Pink Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I was thinking of saying something about the fact that they appeared to have restricted themselves to 8-bit information, given the size of each galaxy. This confirms it. The article also confirms that they could have had an infinite number of galaxies and were planning something stupid - 282,000,000,000 of them! That's not 248 ... that's 2 to the power of 48. And this is why, since understanding how pseudo random number generators work, I'm having trouble understanding why the Acorn Electron cassette version (not sure about disk) only had one galaxy. Procedural generation is processor intensive, not memory intensive. The only reason I can think of is that Acorn again stepped in and decided that they wanted the BBC Micro version to be the premier version of the game. Of course, Frontier have gone nuts with Elite: Dangerous. One of the more interesting parts of the game is exploration. I've come across some incredible solar systems on my journey. Really need to get enough cash to buy an Advanced Discovery Scanner for my Cobra. If an A8 version is completed I hope whoever does it goes the whole hog and give us 256 galaxies. I'd love to find the Arse system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+CharlieChaplin Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Hmmm, believe it or not, I never played Elite... But on the A8 there exists Omnitrend`s "Universe" - is it similar (better/weaker) to Elite somehow ?!? http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-400-800-xl-xe-universe_5617.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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