Should Atari have attempted more updates of classic games on the Jaguar?

[Gaztee]

 

According to UK Press at the time (Feb'1994):

1st batch of Jaguar consoles arrived in London and went to:Virgin Megastores, HMV and Harrods.UK got mere 4,000 units to start with.

So when Darryl talks of inital demand out stripping supplies, your simply looking at a tiny number of units (same report claimed USA had 40,000 units made avaiable at same time) made avaiable in UK which had to be spread across branches of Comet, Dixons, Toys R Us as well

I know it's the 1 piece of wreckage certain Jaguar fans often like to quote when asked what Atari could of done different (this comment not aimed at anyone on here, i assure you :-) ) and how Ohhh if only they'd had more units avaiable at launch here in UK....but the actual reality is as it's described here..a mere trickle reached UK in 1st wave and yes, stores were left with orders they could'nt fullfill, so if your branch recieved 5 consoles, yet you had orders for 8, then yes demmand outstripped supply, but your not talking 100's of orders per store...

 

I can't quite remember the exact Jag launch, but the only high street electrical retailer that stocked the machine was Rumbelows. I never saw a Jaguar in Comet, Curry's or Dixons. I remember Daryl Still was hoping to get them in Dixons as he was hoping that showcasing FFL next to VF & its ilk would help sell more units. I vaguely remember seeing them in Our price & I think Virgin. I mainly remember seeing them in indy game shops (a very rare thing these days!) which is where I bought most of my games.

[Lost Dragon]

Friend of mine worked in retail and recounts this story:

 

 

'I managed to sell a jaguar once when I worked at calculus in Coventry. I didn't see it as a big deal but got a huge pat on the back from the boss later on that day. It turned out they were struggling to give them away!

 

It's funny though, I remember how I got the sale, by being brutally honest and telling the customer he would be taking a gamble in buying one. Ie: that the machines potential was great, but as of yet there wasn't much going on for it in terms of games etc.'

 

http://www.retrogamer.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48050&p=946474&hilit=jaguar#p946474

[Lost Dragon]

As for Rise Of The Robots, which was mentioned earlier, i wonder if this might of put paid to any Jaguar version:

 

A nameless member of the sales team talked of getting phone calls from retailers, indie's in particular, saying that they knew the game was a pile of shite and despite selling well, those copies would come straight back in from customers as soon as they realised how bad it was, plus stores had ordered far too many copies.He also talked of the mistakes made at the duplication plants with there being so many versions, 3 different dupilcation plants involved, different companies handling the packaging, versions on CD, on Cart, on 8 disks, on 4 disks etc.whole affair described as terrible, just terrible, so i doubt after the dust had settled of the mainstream versions, anyone was going to invest resources in a version for the Jaguar of all platforms.

[Bill Loguidice]

On a completely unrelated side note, I remember interviewing at Absolute Entertainment in the mid-90s when they were working on Rise of the Robots 2. As tactfully as I could I brought up the "issues" with Rise of the Robots, and, with a chuckle, the gentleman I was interviewing with assured me that Rise of the Robots 2 was going to fix all of the issues. We all know how that turned out.

[ilaskey]

As people are talking about the UK press view of the Jaguar, here's the reviews I did for Atari St Review magazine back then. You need to scroll down a bit for the Jaguar reviews but there's a good few there.

http://laskey.co.uk/category/retro/atari/

[Lost Dragon]

@ilaskey:Cheers for sharing those, i'll boomark and look at later (off to work in a mo.)

@Bill:When PR Department of Mirage were busy hawking Rise, then 70% complete on PC+Amiga, MD+SNES versions 'planned' .......OMG, the hype...not just the visuals, but the ground breaking A.I routines (Amiga A.I tables ported to PC ver.), the gameplay which would be something never seen before and they'd feel insulted if people refered to Rise as just another Street Fighter clone, no this was a true Next Gen product, in fact it was THE Next Gen product :-) So, i could see how Atari at that point would of been keen to secure a version of Rise, to show how Jaguar would also play home to the 'hottest' titles, but after inital versions landed, think both parties might of been very keen to move swiftly on....

And yep PS1 Press by time of Rise 2 had PR department making a big deal out of lessons learned from mistakes of the 1st....

[Lost Dragon]

@NeoGeoNinja:Not sure if this info re:PS1 Raiden is of any help but...

 

Co-Programmer, Richard Honneywood, said PS1 version originally started out as an attempt of Raiden II and it was'nt until a few months into coding he+Kazutoshi Shoji decided to inc stages from the original in the game.He said the team had'nt been happy with the conversions done to Famicom, PC Engine, MD, FM Towns etc by other companies, as despite being ok, they were far from the real arcade versions.They wanted a good conversion so decided to do it themselves.

 

He also talked of the challenges bringing the game to the PS1 hardware, as for Parallax scrolling the PS1 could do it, but it was'nt the best machine for it and it helped that Raiden's music was being done on the PS soundchip (although they'd of liked more sound memory), rather than competing with the graphics for CD-Rom Acess.

[NeoGeoNinja]

@NeoGeoNinja:Not sure if this info re:PS1 Raiden is of any help but...

 

Co-Programmer, Richard Honneywood, said PS1 version originally started out as an attempt of Raiden II and it was'nt until a few months into coding he+Kazutoshi Shoji decided to inc stages from the original in the game.He said the team had'nt been happy with the conversions done to Famicom, PC Engine, MD, FM Towns etc by other companies, as despite being ok, they were far from the real arcade versions.They wanted a good conversion so decided to do it themselves.

 

He also talked of the challenges bringing the game to the PS1 hardware, as for Parallax scrolling the PS1 could do it, but it was'nt the best machine for it and it helped that Raiden's music was being done on the PS soundchip (although they'd of liked more sound memory), rather than competing with the graphics for CD-Rom Acess.

 

Interesting stuff Lost Dragon!

 

Cheers

[Lost Dragon]

@NeoGeoNinja:Glad it was of some 'use' :-).I know it's just gaming triva, but i thought it was worth sharing and it struck a chord as when Raiden was being previewed on Jaguar, likes of Edge were mocking it for being something a 'Super Console' would hardly break into a sweat running, yet the preview that triva game from, made it very clear just what the task was involved converting a game based on dedicated sprite pushing hardware, onto the Playstation which was far more geared towards Polygon pushing.

I also like hearing coders thoughts on what they'd of liked changed on hardware they worked on and why and also why they took on the task at hand to start with.

[Lost Dragon]

Bit more from UK Press regarding hardware shortages:

 

Atari UK had hoped to get several 1000 consoles to fullfill essential Xmas Pre-Orders at stores, actually recieved several hundred machines and these did'nt arrive in stores until Xmas Eve, so good few customers were let down, stores not happy as expressed by:

 

Gerry Berkley, HMV Games Manager:

 

'I have to say that it was'nt particularly well handled and in the end it was hardly worth the effort.There's been a lot of bad feeling created.I don't think Atari have done themselves any favours'.

 

Ironically this quote on the strangled UK early launch, would go onto sum up Atari's handling of the Jaguar from start to finish it seems.

[Atlantis]

 

Looking at the list of Jag games by release (pretty old link but that is what everyone referred to for a long time), those three titles (CF, CD, KN) were still early enough in the lifespan to have made the difference. I assume you might be arguing that it was the pre-t2k titles that did it, correct me if I am wrong but in looking at the old reviews from back-in-the-day, CyberMorph generally got good reviews(EGM excepted); Trevor McFur wasn't liked too well but Atari was able to use a Gamepro quote about the graphics in some ads; Raiden wasn't 100% but it also wasn't viewed that poorly. Overall I don't see that those games had bad enough PR to make the Jag get stuck with the "worst system ever" sort of reputation, not at that point.

I looked through this dated order of games released myself, and I still think that an initial plan of getting out lots/or more at least of old classics would have been a good backup plan, if things didn't work out for Jaguar in the attempt to follow successful games styles of its time or tie 3rd part developers to the system.

 

Had they released like 10 classics in 2000 or 3D editions it could have helped them to survive a little longer I think, if trouble in getting 3rd part companies on the hook. I see these three strategies Atari could have used more together:

 

1. get 3rd part companies to get cutting edge games out on this system and try to get them to be exclusives.

2. try to copy successful games

3. revamp more Ataris old games, than they did

 

Strategy 1 worked well with AvP. Then a big failure after that. And the Jaguar being a copy cat of successful games didn't work out. This list is a bit ironic, but has a serious point into it also:

 

Jaguar's counterparts:

When you think Starfox, Jaguar thinks Cybermorph

When you think Sega rally, Jaguar thinks Checkered flag

When you think Mario kart, Jaguar thinks Atari karts

When you think Micro machines, Jaguar thinks Club drive

When you think Wipeout, Jaguar thinks Val d'isere

When you think Mortal kombat, Jaguar thinks Ultra vortek

When you think Street fighter II, Jaguar thinks Kasumi ninja

When you think Virtua fighter, Jaguar thinks Fight for life

When you think Double dragon, Jaguar thinks Double dragon V

When you think Super mario bros, Jaguar thinks Bubsy

When you think R-type, Jaguar thinks Trevor McFur

When you think Fifa, Jaguar thinks Fever pitch

When you think Madden, Jaguar thinks Troy Aikman

When you think EA sports, Jaguar thinks Brutal sports

When you think Tetris, Jaguar thinks Flip out!

When you think Lemmings, Jaguar thinks Dino dudes

When you think Alone in the dark, Jaguar thinks Highlander

When you think Settlers, Jaguar thinks Baldies

When you think Super mario 64, Jaguar thinks I-war

When you think Zelda, Jaguar thinks Attack of the mutant penguins (LOL)

Strategy 2 didn't work out so good either.

 

Then more classic Atari games, form the very start, could have helped, imo...

Edited May 2, 2015 by Atlantis

[+madman]

 

When you think Zelda, Jaguar thinks Attack of the mutant penguins (LOL)

AMP is a copy of Zelda?

 

[+save2600]

Haha, yeah I don't get that either. Or the Sega Rally<>Checkered Flag comparison. Should be Virtua Racing.

 

Sega Rally's got more in common with Power Drive Rally. Micro Machines and Power Drive too.

 

Super Mario and I-War? Dude... what is you smokin'?

[+madman]

Not to mention Wipeout and Val d'Isere. A skiing game is a copy of a futuristic racer?

[+remowilliams]

When you think 'good game', Jaguar thinks 'crap'

[Atlantis]

When you think 'good game', Jaguar thinks 'crap'

Nope, I have 8 of those games and 7 of them are great (Baldies I haven't dug my head into that much yet, but will go ostrich soon).

 

Glad you guys catched the irony.

Still the argument is: should got more classics out in the beginning.

 

/ Luke Fumewalker.

[Atlantis]

Not to mention Wipeout and Val d'Isere. A skiing game is a copy of a futuristic racer?

"Use the fume, Luke."

"Ok, here goes nothing:"

 

They are both extremely fast racers on a very narrow track. The rest is just colors, fluff and atmosphere. =)

You see, mad?

[Bill Loguidice]

Had they released like 10 classics in 2000 or 3D editions it could have helped them to survive a little longer I think, if trouble in getting 3rd part companies on the hook. I see these three strategies Atari could have used more together:

 

 

The wrench in the works is the fact that the Jaguar console sold approximately 125,000 units from its launch right up to when it went on liquidation, which was approximately a two year span. It's hard to envision a survivable scenario or even a scenario where they were bought more time. The numbers were so monumentally against success after that first year. If the launch was handled better and it was able to legitimately demonstrate that 64-bit power, then maybe it might have built up some momentum in its first months on the market and then we'd have something to talk about.

 

I don't know what that figure is, but I would love to know how many units they would have had to have moved for Atari to have lasted in the form that it was in by that time. Was it lifetime sales of 1 million? Less? More? The problem we're dealing with again is the fact that the number of units sold was so vanishingly small that if the Jaguar console were a single console game, it would struggle to be considered even a modest success. And that's the platform that needed to support robust sales for lots of game cartridges, which would have helped the bottom line.

[Clint Thompson]

 

The wrench in the works is the fact that the Jaguar console sold approximately 125,000 units from its launch right up to when it went on liquidation, which was approximately a two year span. It's hard to envision a survivable scenario or even a scenario where they were bought more time. The numbers were so monumentally against success after that first year. If the launch was handled better and it was able to legitimately demonstrate that 64-bit power, then maybe it might have built up some momentum in its first months on the market and then we'd have something to talk about.

 

I don't know what that figure is, but I would love to know how many units they would have had to have moved for Atari to have lasted in the form that it was in by that time. Was it lifetime sales of 1 million? Less? More? The problem we're dealing with again is the fact that the number of units sold was so vanishingly small that if the Jaguar console were a single console game, it would struggle to be considered even a modest success. And that's the platform that needed to support robust sales for lots of game cartridges, which would have helped the bottom line.

 

Yeah, and even with the pack-ins during 1995 when the unit was pushing off for $149 at most stores, they still seemed to have trouble selling them. Even then at KB-Toys with the units being $30 and games at $10 a piece, they lingered around for quite some time... of course by then, everyone was on to much better things. Would have been a smart move to pick up a few dozen boxed, toss in the attic and wait until 2015 for 500% markup haha...

[danny_galaga]

Stun runner would have been sick on the jag. Sick I tell you. Just look at tube SE...

 

Someone should make it now, make only 50 copies, and sell them on Kevincals eBay store for $600 a pop. THERE IS A MARKET FOR THAT!!!!

 

S.T.U.N Runner would definitely have been a great game on the Jag (",)

[kid_vidiot]

Why wasn't T-Mek released for Jaguar? Could it handle 4 player split screen? Or two linked 2 player split screen?

[+remowilliams]

Why wasn't T-Mek released for Jaguar?

Because it needed a system that could handle fast moving fluid 3D graphics.

 

 

 

 

[+madman]

Actually in all seriousness, on the 32X they pulled off T-Mek, but instead of 3D they used pre-rendered sprites and scaling to simulate actual 3D texture mapped polys. What you end up with is barely playable junk that isn't even appealing to the eyes. In other words, it would've been perfectly at home on the Jag.

[Schmudde]

Actually in all seriousness, on the 32X they pulled off T-Mek, but instead of 3D they used pre-rendered sprites and scaling to simulate actual 3D texture mapped polys. What you end up with is barely playable junk that isn't even appealing to the eyes. In other words, it would've been perfectly at home on the Jag.

 

 

Meh. IIRC, T-Mek was a mix of 3D enemies and sprite-based obstacles. The landscape wasn't even as complex as Hoverstrike. Decent T-Mek pastiche seems quite doable on the Jaguar.

 

However, the feeling of the gameplay really relies on the environment's chaotic speed. I remember the frame rate being rock solid and incredibly smooth, which made the game feel crazy fast. Not even the Jaguar's gouraud shaded I-War accomplishes this.

 

The designers of the 32x version might have made the compromises you mentioned to replicate the feel of the game. The system was certainly capable of more (Virtua Racing and Metal Head come to mind). In the end, the game really fails at all levels. You'd be better off playing Battlewheels on the Lynx.

 

I certainly don't miss T-Mek. If there is one aspect of the Jaguar library that feels pretty complete, it's the plethora of tank and low-orbit aircraft simulators.

 

ü

[+madman]

 

 

Meh. IIRC, T-Mek was a mix of 3D enemies and sprite-based obstacles. The landscape wasn't even as complex as Hoverstrike. Decent T-Mek pastiche seems quite doable on the Jaguar.

 

However, the feeling of the gameplay really relies on the environment's chaotic speed. I remember the frame rate being rock solid and incredibly smooth, which made the game feel crazy fast. Not even the Jaguar's gouraud shaded I-War accomplishes this.

 

The designers of the 32x version might have made the compromises you mentioned to replicate the feel of the game. The system was certainly capable of more (Virtua Racing and Metal Head come to mind). In the end, the game really fails at all levels. You'd be better off playing Battlewheels on the Lynx.

 

I certainly don't miss T-Mek. If there is one aspect of the Jaguar library that feels pretty complete, it's the plethora of tank and low-orbit aircraft simulators.

 

ü

I agree, T-Mek is one of the many 32X games that isn't fully utilizing the 32X hardware. However, I'm not sure the 32X could've pulled off full texture mapping at a decent frame rate with what devs knew about the hardware at the time. At least it has scaling in it, so it's more than some of the 32X games that are just Genesis games with a deeper palette. Virtua Fighter and Virtua Racing are great games (IMO VR is a reason alone to own a 32X), but they don't prove the 32X was capable of texture mapping, just great flat shaded 3D. Of course it's all speculation on my part.

 

And you're right, the Jag already had enough of these types of games.