Sheddy Posted April 7, 2003 Share Posted April 7, 2003 @Sheddy: there will be a nice partial demo of the game for emulators, available by the time the game is done. (We will probably release the entire ROM in time). In addition to this, it appears we will be making 5200 and Atari8bit carts for this game. I love the 5200 but I realize there are many more Atari 8bit users, and I think all of us on the team would like as many people as possible to play Adv II. Thanks to AtariAge's considerable resources, it seems that Atari 8bit carts can also be made. That's good to know. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 the demo looks awesome. good work! if you need any help just drop me an email. i have not much time left for hardcore engine coding but in moral support and 6502 & design questions? cheers, hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelen Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 Very nice graphics ! Nice Demo ! with what kind of program did you design the graphics ? thelen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Cafeman Posted April 8, 2003 Share Posted April 8, 2003 @Thelen: Calamari's Antic 4 utility is invaluable. IMO it takes real artistic talent to use the tool to build nice screens within the confines of a limited charset and few default colors. I love working with artists! @heaven: I will ask your help at the programming forum as needed, and as usual. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 just one simple suggestion... charset animation would definitly enhance the game! maybe for the 8bit edition? f.e. the waves in the lake could be simply animated... and yes... it definitly helps to have real artists... even when you are in 4 colors only... that's the real challenge for them.... that's why everybody is impressed on this stage of dev. reminds me on the ps2 activision complilation... have you seen the "all in one" commercial with some previews on upcoming activision titles? when you see david crane, etc. painting the gfx on paper for their games... hahaha...those were days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Cafeman Posted April 9, 2003 Share Posted April 9, 2003 just one simple suggestion... charset animation would definitly enhance the game! maybe for the 8bit edition? f.e. the waves in the lake could be simply animated... Good suggestion, and we agree. Yes, we'll have charset animation. It didn't make it into this demo version -- and the waves are indeed what will be animated, and perhaps some other things too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 cool... another idea...if you have played zelda on snes, gba than you have realised the clouds? they used to have a complete foreground playfield for moving clouds... or take the worms main menu (worms 3 i gues...) as you are using "just" 1 player and 2 for the dragon... maybe you could use the left out players/missles as clouds moving over the screens? would help to create more atmosphere? just use sizep0 = 3 to make them big as possible... what do you think? or you use this "cloud" method for a trick like in hounted house on 2600? maybe some caves will have this "dark" effect where you have search items or the exit in a dark chamber... just highlighted by the light around you? could be simply done on 5200 just by hanging prior & color registers.... hve ps. our gfx guy yesterday was painting mobile phone logos.... hahaha...using photoshop and try to convert & repaint our highres game logo on nokia screen... hahaha... you should have to see here face.... ps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Cafeman Posted April 10, 2003 Share Posted April 10, 2003 as you are using "just" 1 player and 2 for the dragon... maybe you could use the left out players/missles as clouds moving over the screens? would help to create more atmosphere? just use sizep0 = 3 to make them big as possible... what do you think? ==> That would be a cool effect in another game, but not Adventure II. I have a lot of items to display with the Players and Missiles -- sword, multiple keys, multiple dragons, a troll, a bat, bridge, etc. Imagine a screen with the player square, 2 dragons, the sword, and 2 keys, and the troll! All the players are used in this scenario, and more. or you use this "cloud" method for a trick like in hounted house on 2600? maybe some caves will have this "dark" effect where you have search items or the exit in a dark chamber... just highlighted by the light around you? could be simply done on 5200 just by hanging prior & color registers.... ==> The original Adventure 2600 had a few dark areas with just a 'spotlight' effect showing the maze in the viscinity nearest the player. There is a section like this planned for Adv II as well ... if it works well, we'll keep it. In theory, just make all the screen colors black and make the player0 extra wide (like a light) every other frame, and 'behind the playfield' priority -- which is what you are saying too, I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 exactly... --> clouds... why not using charset as well for the objects? then you free up some player/missles. collision detection can't be so hard with a square as player... --> dark parts.... yes... that's how it could work... anyway... keep the things going... will you have background music? if yes.... more classic? hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Mo Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Personally, I don't see how adding clouds and such will add anything but coding complexity. Personally, I'd rather see the P/Ms used effectively to minimize flicker or to make the moving objects look nicer. And, yeah, you can use character grapics in place of P/Ms for some things, but there are a lot of limitations when you have to move them around (the fixed grid) and then you're restricted to the playfield colors for all such objects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Cafeman Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 I don't plan on using playfield graphics for any sprites. It is too difficult to move them. Although the 5200 can make astronomically better playfields than the 2600, it has basically similar sprite capabilities. It only doubles the # of single color sprites & missiles (although you lose the 'ball' sprite). Due to the need to keep things a certain color, missiles aren't really all that useful here either, since the missiles have the same colors as the onscreen player sprites. I don't like single color sprites, but I think that flicker is even worse. I have a theory: If I display two on-screen sprites -- say the bat and the sword. Both are Player1. If I bump up the color luminsocity of each item when I determine I need to flicker them every-other-frame, will the flicker be more difficult to detect on a TV set? For example, if Bat is #$02 (almost black) and Sword is #$16 (yellowish), but when I flicker I change these values to #$04 and #$18 -- since it is only every other frame, I wonder if the objects might appear more stable on the TV? I haven't tried this yet. THoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Despite the fact that you're not gonna use character set sprites - I'd just like to refudeate Big_Mo's assertion they are limited - check out the Menace demos on my website (www.jetbootjack.com)... Also do you really consider DOUBLE the number of sprites only a marginal improvement to the 2600 hardware? The use of just the hardware sprites and simple playfields is generally in my opinion what lead to the least exciting 5200/8bit games - its those where clever software sprite systems or heavy multiplexing of the PM were used that provide the visual richness the system is really capable of. sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEBRO Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 Wasn't Shamus done with character graphics? I think this was discussed once before in the programming forum where they used an engine to move their characters smoothly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 11, 2003 Share Posted April 11, 2003 --> i thought if you are placing PM objects on the screen like keys etc... without moving them (they disappear when you pick'em up) then i see no advantage to use pm sprites for the objects... they are even monochrome... and if doing in antic 4 you could even add a 5th color for blinking etc... so the player is noticing the object... but if you move them around than you are right... it might get complex... hve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Mo Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 Despite the fact that you're not gonna use character set sprites - I'd just like to refudeate Big_Mo's assertion they are limited - check out the Menace demos on my website (www.jetbootjack.com)... First of all, there's no such word as "refudeate". I think you mean refute (to prove wrong by argument or evidence : show to be false or erroneous), or maybe repudiate. Secondly, I made no reference to character set "sprites" (I assume you mean software sprites). I was referring to redefined character sets and the limited number of colors. I looked at the page you listed (the direct URL for Menace being http://www.jetbootjack.com/Menace.htm), but from screenshots alone (and jpgs at that, which blur the true number of colors) you can't make out how many colors are actually in an image. So, enlighten me; what techniques are being used to display these screens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted April 13, 2003 Share Posted April 13, 2003 Hang on there “Big_Mo” is it fun to pick on people for misspelling things - does it make you feel big and strong, and witty???? Maybe if you were, like me, dyslexic you may not find it so hilarious…. Onto the real meat here - I was responding to the line - "And, yeah, you can use character graphics in place of P/Ms for some things, but there are a lot of limitations when you have to move them around (the fixed grid) and then you're restricted to the playfield colors for all such objects." Which I thought clearly as about the issue of "when you have to move them around (the fixed grid)"... Which is not true, Menace is Antic 4 and very lively…. If you download the Menace demo files and play them on an emulator you will see what I mean. Sure you are limited in color use, but if you look at say Black Lamp – that is colorful and uses Antic 4 software sprites for a GREAT looking game!!! Add in some Fancy DLI work (Which we never got round to on Menace) and I assure you it would look even better! sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Mo Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Re Menace: do character graphics scroll at different speeds relative to one another on the same scanline? If yes, you are right. If no, then there's still a fixed grid, but the offsets are being changed (as in fine scrolling). And as to picking on people's spelling; I don't pick on typos or misspellings (everyone makes them)...but I do cock my eyebrow at words that don't exist and routine substitutions of incorrect words for some other word (like "better then" for "better than" or "could of" for of "could've"...oy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Big Mo, Yes we did do REAL software sprites - overlapping, moving at different speeds, at any pixel position on an ANTIC 4 screen, whilst fine scrolling... sTeVE P.S. Gee thanks for your understanding - FYI - I have NOT IDEA HOW WORDS ARE SPELLED even when I see them, even when told - for me the letters are just a jumble, they make no sense to me, whatever the order or the pronunciation - its ignorant people like you who don't understand my and millions of other's problem that make it hard - so please stop it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_Mo Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Re: software sprites. Maybe I'm missing something. You're doing software sprites on top of an ANTIC 4 playfield. But what does that mean, exactly? I understand how a P/M gets put over a background, but the sprites you refer to are what exactly? If you have a character set you're using as a background, and you have a software sprite you want to put over it, how is that done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Cafeman Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Beats me how you'd do that. IF you have an Antic 4 screen like a row of redefined A characters, if you use masking to superimpose an object over the bg character, you'd change all the occurrences in Screen RAM of that A character. In an ANtic E screen (not tile/character based), it would be different. You can mask an image over existing pixels and 'restore' those pixels after your software sprite had passed over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heaven/TQA Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 cafeman... you could have arrange fonts in a special & intelligent way so you can do this... in fact antic e & antic 4 are not so different (in handling the bits for masking etc...) than you might think... f.e. look at jetboot's menace... the background is done by switching through 4 different fonts... and the sprites are all preshifted for accurate pixel positioning... you could even simulate antic e by antic 4...you would adress pixels just in a different way, more like on c64... abcdefg hijklmn opqrst uvwxy there you could have a "antic e" small gfx window just done by charmode... you have no double char...so your fear with double chars is not valid... that's what i ment with do it clever just by organising the screen & chars... now you can clear the screen very fast just by deleting the chars in the screenram which is much faster than doing it byte by byte in antic e... f.e. the above "window" has 28x32 antic e pixles... now imagine that our sprite would be a 4x8 pixel sprite (hence the size of an antic 4 char). now you would mask and copy that directly into the chars...f.e. if you position it at 0,0 than you would copy that directly into the area of the "a" in the font... positioned at 1,1 you would need now a shifted version and would copy that into the font to a,b,h,i of course you would need to restore the font as you would do it with antic e screen... i hope you got it...there is really nothing special in simultating antic e in antic 4 but gaining the 5th color and sometimes faster in the sprite handling..... watch the menace demos close hve [/code] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Cafeman Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 I believe I understand your explanation, but I am not at that programming / familiarity level yet, if ever. You are the sensei, I am but a grasshoppa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted April 14, 2003 Share Posted April 14, 2003 Yup in essence that's the techique - one day I might write up a real how to - but I'm busy working on a revision to the technique allowing many more unique characters to be displayed (uses LOTS of DLI!).... I urge everyone who doesn't understand the technique - download the Menace demos and play it - see the technique in action! Also look at Black Lamp in action - same system.... With Antic E Software sprites you get more colour, less RAM usage, easier data management and a faster system than Antic E software sprites. Plus you can use Charset rotation for LOADS of super fast animation - it rules!!!! sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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