TransKey-II in development

[+mytek]

Since the next update will also affect the mouse, here is what I am proposing to do...

 

EDIT MODE (default):

1. Mouse Movement Sends out CTRL+Arrow Keys
2. Left Button = RETURN KEY
3. Right Button = ??? (I need your feedback)

Game Mode:

1. Mouse Movement Sends out Un-CTRL'ed Arrow Keys
2. Left Button = SPACE BAR
3. Right Button = START KEY

 

The original Mouse Button implementation uses two normally unavailable key codes for the Left and Right Buttons. But For what I call the Mouse EDIT MODE I was thinking that the Left Button should actually be the RETURN KEY since that is more the norm in modern mouse applications. I'm just not sure what to use for the Right Button, other than the present assignment. Any ideas from the peanut gallery???

 

Thanks,

 

- Michael

[Irgendwer]

(I need your feedback)

 

Wouldn't make it sense to put "Shift" and "Control" to the mouse buttons? This way, movements with pressed buttons (Drag & Drop) would be possible...

Otherwise I would vote for "ESC" for the right button, also in "Game Mode".

[+mytek]

 

Wouldn't make it sense to put "Shift" and "Control" to the mouse buttons? This way, movements with pressed buttons (Drag & Drop) would be possible...

Otherwise I would vote for "ESC" for the right button, also in "Game Mode".

 

What a great idea! Yes "Shift" would allow a button to remain pressed and detected, as well as "Control". Unfortunately "Control" is being used with the Arrows in EDIT MODE, so it isn't a candidate. However Drag'n'Drop is mainly a Left Button thing anyway, so having only "Shift" available should be fine. And yes I can see a certain symmetry with the Right Button being "ESC". So based on your suggestions here's where this would bring us.

 

EDIT MODE (default):

1. Mouse Movement Sends out CTRL+Arrow Keys
2. Left Button = SHIFT KEY
3. Right Button = ESC KEY

Game Mode:

1. Mouse Movement Sends out Un-CTRL'ed Arrow Keys
2. Left Button = SPACE BAR
3. Right Button = ESC KEY

My original decision to use the START KEY for the Right Button in GAME MODE was to support your ECKN game, which works quite well with the TK-II mouse. So this would allow for starting and re-starting the game. Will ESC do the same thing, or can it do so in an updated version of ECKN or ECKN+ ?

 

Thanks for your suggestions Christian.

 

- Michael

 

P.S. This topic is still open for other suggestions.

 

[+mytek]

Actually after playing around with the mouse, and based on the way it works right now, I don't think a sustained button press will work all that well. The present characteristics of a button press is to shut off movement when the button is depressed, and then send out the character for as long as the button is held. The reason that it was done in this way has to do with minimizing unwanted screen movement when pressing buttons, and disallowed the possibility of trying to send two keys at once. It needs to be remembered that TK-II's mouse implementation can not be looked at like a real mouse in a GUI, where a small movement in the mouse = a small movement on screen. the TK-II's mouse is character based, so small movement = large changes on screen. The other problem with a sustained button press, is that the buttons and the movement all have to be done with key sends. using "Shift" would allow for simultaneous key sends by acting like a modifier, but at the cost of modifying what is being sent by appending "Shift" to it. So currently in what I call "EDIT MODE", CTRL+Arrows are sent for mouse movement. If you were to have the Left Button press be a "Shift" and hold it, any mouse movement would now send SHIFT+CTRL+Arrows. See the problem?

 

- Michael

Edited December 8, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[flashjazzcat]

Is there any low-level access to the mouse through software? If these things are going to be common out in the wild (enabling PS/2 mice to be connected to the Atari), it might be useful. Haven't thought through the possibilities in detail mind you (I'm used to reading serial mouse grey code).

[+mytek]

Is there any low-level access to the mouse through software? If these things are going to be common out in the wild (enabling PS/2 mice to be connected to the Atari), it might be useful. Haven't thought through the possibilities in detail mind you (I'm used to reading serial mouse grey code).

 

Hi Jon,

 

This is where my knowledge is a bit fuzzy, but I think this is also where POKEY becomes the bottle neck and severely limits what can be done other than keyboard scans. And since this is TK-II's only interface with the Atari, my suspicions are that low-level access will only be whatever could be done via the stock keyboard and POKEY, and nothing more. So unlike a joystick port's ability to be so much more than simply a joystick interface, POKEY was not designed to be anywhere near this flexible and nor did it need to be in order to scan and interpret a keyboard matrix. Of course I could be wrong, and there may be a way to do much more through direct access with POKEY's registers, but I don't currently possess the knowledge to say so either way.

 

Personally I never intended TK-II's mouse support to be on par with a real mouse, and it was merely going to be a cool little trick to implement some very basic mouse-like abilities by piggy backing on top of the keyboard hardware, and do so with nearly zero added cost. And although it will have its uses and find its place, it'll likely never be able to navigate a GUI like the one that you have created. This would be better left to a true mouse, although the aging ST mouse is probably not an ideal candidate either, but still better than the TK-II mouse will ever be in this regard. What I would rather see happen, is that someone would either resume selling a PS/2 (or USB) mouse to ST converter for the Atari 8, or put the code for such in the public domain. At which point I would be happy to create a board for purchase from OSH Park. This would be in my opinion the best solution of all.

 

- Michael

Edited December 8, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[flashjazzcat]

Yes: that all makes perfect sense. Thanks for the explanation. PeST adapters would be a great solution, or even something connecting to the SIO port and generating an IRQ, perhaps.

[+mytek]

Yes: that all makes perfect sense. Thanks for the explanation. PeST adapters would be a great solution, or even something connecting to the SIO port and generating an IRQ, perhaps.

 

Yeah SIO would seem like a logical interface, but unfortunately the plug is nowhere near as available as the D-Sub 9 connector on the joystick ports. And then you have the daisy-chain aspect to consider as well.

 

I know the original creator of the PeST passed away several years ago, and then IIRC it was still being supported by a friend that she worked with for a while thereafter. Any chance of that code going into the public domain? From what I've read, it looked like a very solid solution.

 

- Michael

[+mytek]

UPDATE: Version 1.4 Firmware Under test

 

If all goes well, this should be rolled out by the end of this week.

 

What has Changed?

 

Two things mainly, one being to change from a pulsed key send to a sustained send when a key is held down (same as stock Atari keyboard). Although for many applications this change will be invisible, but for the ones where this matters (mainly games), it'll take something that didn't work and make it whole again. However due to limitations in how a PS/2 keyboard works, there is one major difference between this and the stock keyboard. If you press and hold a key on a PS/2 keyboard, and then press and hold another key, yes the first key repeat changes to the 2nd just as you would suspect. But if you then lift the last held key, key sends completely stop even though you are still holding down the 1st key. A stock Atari keyboard will always send something if any key is still held down.

 

This is unfortunately an attribute of not only PS/2 keyboards, but also the USB ones that took their place (try it yourself; open a text editor on your PC, and then do the two key press sequence I just mentioned). However if you keep this limitation in mind, you can still make it work for games like Bomber by lifting a key just before pressing the other. It's not quite as smooth as what can be done with the stock keyboard, but it'll work.

 

The 2nd change in the firmware is the creation of two different mouse modes, with one specifically aimed at games. Since a picture can better help to get a point across, I give you a look at the new mouse support and all of its features.

 

 

 

 

Switching to Game Mode will only stick if the computer with TK-II installed is left powered up. Powering down clears this setting and starts up with the mouse in Edit Mode. To better know when you have pressed the left or Right buttons long enough to switch modes, there is an audible alert (sends CTRL+2 "buzzer") for Edit Mode, and a visual multi Escape sequence when Game Mode is activated (this will also show up as a double repeating Tile mark in the ECKN+ game, which is both visual and audible).

 

The other thing that Game Mode does, is to disable the ScreenSaver (attract) setting, so that color cycling is reactivated. This was done since some games like ECKN+ directly respond to a Shift key press, and also unfortunately to a CTRL+SHIFT which is part of the attract mode defeat key send used by TK-II. However this is only a temporary disable function and does not change the non-volatile user setting, which will resume when the mouse is put back into the Edit Mode setting.

 

So I think that pretty well covers it.

 

- Michael

 

EDIT: the mouse buttons are pulsed sends (not sustained as I had said in an earlier post). Basically when pressed they send out a single key press only.

Edited December 16, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[morelenmir]

I just wanted to post and say thank you for all the work done on this! The keyboard on the XL machines and I think the XE's as well for that matter is a major obstacle to using them for extended periods. T least in my case it is - I have three XL keyboards and none of them function properly. Being able to use a modern, inexpensive keyboard would make all the difference in the world. In regards the fit over the POKEY socket after the Lotharek-Stereo is attached... To be honest I am not too worried. I would quite happily remove the keyboard frame itself from the box and run without it! Not only does it help any - reputedly mythical - cooling problems but makes accessing the connectors a lot easier.

 

I do also appreciate your stance on not manufacturing these items on a mass basis. I thin this might be a good project to hone my SMT soldering skills on since I recently bottled out of trying to assemble an 'UltimateCart' from scratch. I think this would be a good place to start!

 

Could anyone explain how I, as a non-commercial end-user go about getting PCB's made by a supplier? I know there is some dodge where you can make your own PCB by using a laser printer, but I don't have one, so...

[+mytek]

Could anyone explain how I, as a non-commercial end-user go about getting PCB's made by a supplier? I know there is some dodge where you can make your own PCB by using a laser printer, but I don't have one, so...

 

If you are talking about getting one of the TK-II PCB's made, it is actually quite easy and can be done with a click of a button or two (plus registering on OSH Park). The "Buy Me" buttons can be found here: ataribits.weebly.com/design I just wish there was a service as good as this that would supply the programmed PIC chip, otherwise you are looking at possibly having to buy a programmer as well (Hex file download is also on that design page).

 

If on the other hand you are looking to layout your own boards, you just need a PCB Design application that either produces Gerber plot files (such as Eagle) or do what I've been doing and use the FREE ExpressPCB software, and then send the PCB file to stewartinstrumentsinc.com and he'll convert them to Gerbers for you for a small fee. Then when you have the Gerbers, go to OSH Park and have them make you a few (minimum order is 3 pieces, but the price is very reasonable).

 

 

Thanks for your compliments, and good luck on the soldering practice.

 

- Michael

[morelenmir]

 

If you are talking about getting one of the TK-II PCB's made, it is actually quite easy and can be done with a click of a button or two (plus registering on OSH Park). The "Buy Me" buttons can be found here: ataribits.weebly.com/design I just wish there was a service as good as this that would supply the programmed PIC chip, otherwise you are looking at possibly having to buy a programmer as well (Hex file download is also on that design page).

 

If on the other hand you are looking to layout your own boards, you just need a PCB Design application that either produces Gerber plot files (such as Eagle) or do what I've been doing and use the FREE ExpressPCB software, and then send the PCB file to stewartinstrumentsinc.com and he'll convert them to Gerbers for you for a small fee. Then when you have the Gerbers, go to OSH Park and have them make you a few (minimum order is 3 pieces, but the price is very reasonable).

 

 

Thanks for your compliments, and good luck on the soldering practice.

 

- Michael

 

Hey Michael!

 

Yeah - I was wondering how to go about having a board or two printed from this design. I assumed you would need to buy really large quantities. Doing a bit of reading tells me that hobbyists like myself can often get a couple of boards done by the companies who are making large orders for commercial purposes - apparently they used the otherwise wasted space around larger orders with the hobbyist's design. That strikes me as very cool indeed and a really good way to save resources.

[vazquezrick]

How do I order one of these?

[+mytek]

How do I order one of these?

 

This is still a DIY item, but you can get the unstuffed manufactured PCB, Hex file to program the chip, and the full documentation including a Bil of Materials at: ataribits.weebly.com/design

 

- Michael

[+mytek]

There have been a lot of changes since this project first started earlier this year, and I thought it might be confusing for someone just reading the tail end of this forum thread as to what TransKey-II (TK-II) has really morphed into. So I created a little photo montage that might better show where TK-II has ended up hardware wise.

 

 

 

The TK-II-PB is what I would call the "Classic" version, that more closely resembles the POKEY Piggy-Back idea first presented in the original 1990 TransKey product. And thanks to FujiMan's great idea, a panel mountable PS/2 Connector Interface Board (TK-II-INTFC) was later created that really compliments the TK-II-PB.

 

The two XEGS models allow the user some flexibility in what he wants to do. The first one (TK-II-XEGS) was primarily focused on providing an extremely easy installation, and simply plugs into the existing keyboard port on these game machines. Whereas the TK-II-XEGS-S utilizing only one multi-use PS/2 jack, creates the smallest footprint of all the models. And although it can be used the same as it's XEGS cousin, it can also be mounted internally in any of the Atari 8 models by soldering jumper wires (or ribbon connected cable) directly to the POKEY chip. For panel mounting, it also has attachment points for small angle brackets (same as the TK-II-INTFC board).

 

All of these different versions use the exact same Firmware OS, as well as the same PIC microcontroller chip. Thus keeping things simple.

 

BTW, I've noticed that many people would like to see a completely assembled version of this made available. Are there any User Groups and/or individuals that would like to do this? If so please jump in here, and feel free to make any announcements to that effect. I will support you in any way that I can.

 

- Michael

Edited December 17, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[gilsaluki]

I would like to see a KIT form of these. I think I could then do the assembly.

[+mytek]

I would like to see a KIT form of these. I think I could then do the assembly.

 

Since there is very little soldering required, the bulk of the work is in ordering the parts, kitting them out, flashing the chip, boxing it all up, and shipping. So in other words a kit vs assembled is pretty close to the same amount of work as far as I'm concerned. If you check out my AtariBits.com website you'll find everything required to basically do all this. There are order buttons for the PCB's, there is a BOM including suggested vendors and part numbers for each version, and there is a download link for the Firmware. Admittedly flashing the firmware might be a problem if you don't already have a programmer, but if you can find a few others to go in with you and share the cost, even this is not terribly expensive. Programmer LINK

 

Quite frankly I am surprised no one has shown an interest in producing these. I have mentioned this idea many times, but so far no takers. Seems odd to me, since all the really hard design work has already been accomplished. So at this point it would be a simple turn-key profit making opportunity for the right person. Originally I decided to undertake this project because I thought people really wanted these, and secondly it was a fulfillment of a dream I had dating back to when I first started working with PIC microcontroller chips. That being to create what had taken multiple chips back in the 90's and put it all on a single chip. Well I've done it, and now it's time to move on to other things.

 

So before I go, is there any producer of Atari related add-ons that is looking for a new product to add to their product line? If so here it is and it's yours for the taking.

 

- Michael

[Fuji-Man]

I will throw my hat in for those who want them.

I've not decided on prices as of yet.

PM me if you are interested and I'll try to gauge prices on interest.

[+mytek]

I will throw my hat in for those who want them.

I've not decided on prices as of yet.

PM me if you are interested and I'll try to gauge prices on interest.

 

Thank you Fuji-Man

 

I'll finish testing the latest firmware rev in a few more days (just trying to insure that I didn't break anything). It should be pretty well rounded at this point and ready for prime time.

 

It is a fantastic offer you are making to the community, and not something that I could take on without getting in the way of my "real" job, which will soon be a bit more demanding.

 

- Michael

Edited December 18, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[gilsaluki]

I am definitely in for one. "secondly it was a fulfillment of a dream I had dating back to when I first started working with PIC microcontroller chips" and flashing a chip are exactly why this is beyond my capabilities' why I desire a finished product or kit. I don't know what a 'PIC' is (bet I am not alone). I certainly can't flash a chip. Hell,I have one of those SIO2SDs, I can't use it because it is beyond my understanding. I cannot even figure out how to download an Atari image off the net. What the hell is FAT 32 anyway? My point, not all of us are electrical engineers or programmers. I am a user, plain and simple. I can assemble and solder,..that's it. Hoping this is produced.

[+mytek]

I am definitely in for one. "secondly it was a fulfillment of a dream I had dating back to when I first started working with PIC microcontroller chips" and flashing a chip are exactly why this is beyond my capabilities' why I desire a finished product or kit. I don't know what a 'PIC' is (bet I am not alone). I certainly can't flash a chip. Hell,I have one of those SIO2SDs, I can't use it because it is beyond my understanding. I cannot even figure out how to download an Atari image off the net. What the hell is FAT 32 anyway? My point, not all of us are electrical engineers or programmers. I am a user, plain and simple. I can assemble and solder,..that's it. Hoping this is produced.

 

I apologize if I made this out to be a trivial thing (which it is not). Although I too started with no such knowledge about soldering, programming, flashing chips, or any number of computer or electronic related things. The reason that changed for me, was that I really wanted to learn and do these things, and I never gave up trying (which I still do to this day). I am a good example of what a High School dropout can do if he or she applies themselves. I also never attended college or took any kind of training classes. And I believe that everybody applies themselves equally in a way of their choosing. My choice just happened to be related to the things that allowed me to create something like the TK-II. But I am no more special than anyone else.

 

And I too hope that this gets produced, and is found to be of use to anyone that gets one. That will truly make me happy

 

- Michael

 

EDIT: And I'd rather think of myself as being an Inventor, not an Engineer

Edited December 19, 2015 by mytekcontrols

[+bob1200xl]

But, you DO Special Things, Michael...

 

This all gets to one reason we have our Ataris, doesn't it?

 

You can call Dell and have a desktop system delivered to your house. All the s/w is loaded on it, plug it in and you are a computer user. Nobody is going to attach an Atari keyboard to a PC and stuff it all in a 1200XL case (well, at least not normal users...). You don't 'fix' the video. You don't add hard drives or CF cards. That is either done by a bunch of engineers or you go without. For the most part, even a highly motivated and talented user like Michael faces a monumental task to do these on a PC.

 

Doing these kind of things on an Atari is a different story. There are increasingly complex projects that can be addressed on the Atari platform, from alternate OS chips to complete processor re-configuration.

 

We can do these things. The learning curve may be minimal or substantial, but it can be mastered with effort. We can write simple BASIC or M/L routines. We can open up our systems and make/design changes. You don't have to be an engineer or a programmer to do engineering or programming. And, you're not alone out here.

 

Hang in there.

 

Bob

[+mytek]

Thanks Bob it is appreciated. And of course the same can be said of you, only I'd up it by a factor of at least 100 in your case. Because some of the ideas and solutions you've come up with, are quite frankly mind boggling at times (i.e., XL14). And your generosity is beyond compare.

 

Getting back to TK-II stuff...

 

So folks thanks to Fuji-Man, the circle is now completed. However please keep in mind that any bugs that are discovered in the operation of the TK-II's will still fall squarely on top of my head. So please don't harass Fuji-Man about these kind of problems should they arise. I'll still be around, so feel free to bug me instead. Hopefully this about to be released firmware version 1.4 will be solid. And from a feature point of view I would have to say we are full up. So likely the only upgrades beyond this will be either bug fixes or enhancements to existing operations.

 

I also can't envision any new and/or different hardware versions coming out of me, but I would like to see Yogi's combined SIO2PC-USB version become available at some point down the road. And of course integration with the Stereo Pokey board would also be cool if that were to happen (similar to Candle's Stereo Pokey/AKI board). This would be a good candidate to have a 10-pin ribbon connection for the TK-II-INTFC board.

 

Funny to think this all began a mere 6 months ago Seems longer than that

 

- Michael

[Van]

Hi Michael,

So many enhancements, looking forward to trying them

And respect to Fuji-man. I'm sure there are more then a few that will want/need built boards. As mods go, a PC KB is really a nice one; one of my biggest 'nit-picks' with, not just the A8 but all of the retro machines, is being locked into not being able to arrange my work space. Gotten used to being able to move the KB as I like. I know it's kind of contrary to the retro 'experience' and all but really like my KB mobil when I'm spending a lot of time on it

There's a question I have, is there any reason I couldn't use a PS2 KVM switch (less the the Monitor connection of course)? Thinking about sharing the KB & Mouse between a couple systems. I'll be trying it out but just wanted to ask.

Sheepish mode::

Sorry I've been MIA, got all the parts in but also got busy with other things. Will be compiling a build how-to in the next few weeks and release the Eagle project as soon as I've verified the board (unless someone wants the file sooner, which is fine, just let me know. As much as I feel that there aren't any errors, don't want to cause anyone extra headache with an unverified board). Just pokin' along, sorry.

Yogi

[+David_P]

I've got three spare blank TK-II-PB boards. No components. I'll let them go for the cost of postage. PM me.