Best Apple II model for Gaming

[walterg74]

 

Wow.. I thought it would be pretty easy to find, but have been googling A LOT without being able to find an answer...

 

So I collect old computers and consoles, with my main interest being in GAMES. while I don't discard it in the future, for now Imdon't code, not interested in expansions, capabilities for other uses, etc. just GAMES.

 

So, having said that, amd being an apple noob, whenever I hear about 80s games being for "Apple", never sure which one they were for. Easily enough I found we were talking about the Apple II, of course, however, with several variants out there I would like to know which is the best model of Apple II one can get (again, exclusively talking about the games).

 

So which model were games for? Or put it another way, which model(s) will let you play all released games? (Now if you say "yeah there's this one game that xxx developed to take advantage of the GS hardware and can only be played on it", blah blah blah, I really don't care about it). In a nutshell, if not all woth what model of Appel II can I play say 99.9% of the games released?

 

Thanks!!!!

[akator]

There is no single Apple II model that can play 99.9% of Apple II games. There were simply too many hardware configurations spanning the 10+ years that the Apple II was relevant. It wasn't like the C64 with one hardware standard. However, you can probably play 80% of the Apple II game library on a //c+ or a late model //e.

[walterg74]

So even though the later ones were expanded in capabilities, they were not backwards compatible?

[BassGuitari]

However, you can probably play 80% of the Apple II game library on a //c+ or a late model //e.

Wasn't the IIc+ the one with the 3.5" drive? Not much came out on 3.5" disk for the Apple, at least not games-wise.

 

A 64K IIe or IIc (which has 128K RAM IIRC) is probably your safest best. I think I'd lean toward the IIe for the simple fact it's expandable. Plus it's got the tape jacks in case you want to go way back with some of the early cassette games (though a lot of those probably later turned up on disk at some point anyway).

[HuckleCat]

Stay away from the //c+, and go for a normal //c.

 

With a //c, you don't have to mess with an external drive, you don't need to worry about memory, and despite what Akator said, you will be able to play pretty much any game. (In the 10 years I had one, I never had a game not work for me.)

 

A IIe is exandable, but you may end up with one with only 64k, and then some of the best games you cannot play. (Wings of Fury, Test Drive, Prince of Persia and Airheart all need 128k, which the //c comes with.)

 

So, yeah, get a //c. The one without the plus.

[david__schmidt]

The GS is probably your best bet, if your objective is to play the most games possible. It is by and large backwards compatible with older models; you would run into trouble with some that required, for example, the audio jacks or had really hardcoded dependencies on the firmware. But there's a whole class of GS games that came out in the late 80s that are of course completely inaccessible to the earlier models. So unless you're talking about a few games that came out in 1977... the GS is probably what you're looking for.

[barrym95838]

I wonder how many popular late-70s and early-80s machine language games depended on undocumented NMOS op-codes, making them buggy or unplayable on any CMOS Apple II.

 

Mike B.

[Keatah]

The first expansion option on a //e should be the 64K/80column card. They're less than $20.00 on fleabay. The next option is the enhanced roms, processor, and character set.

 

I'd go with a //e expanded to 128K and enhanced.

Next choice would be a IIgs.

 

You can use AppleWin emulator to pick up the slack and try games among the II, II+, //e, and enhanced //e.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Keatah

[desiv]

I agree with the 2 options most listed.

I think it comes down to sound and "feel".

For simple and easy, it's hard to beat a //c. Runs almost all the games, compact. Built in floppy (tho you'll probably want an external for those multi-disk games.. Not needed, but nice to have..)

 

But the //c has no card slots... Mostly it already has the RAM and floppy controller you need, but nowhere to add a soundcard.

 

There aren't a lot of games that support the Mockingboard, but if you want that option, you need an Apple with slots.

Expanded //e with 128k RAM and a Mockingboard (or 2 :-) is a very nice system.

 

I don't have 2 Mockingboards in my //e, but there is at least 1 Ultima game (V??) that supports multiple Mockingboards.. The 1 Mockingboard I have is plenty tho, and the sound is great.

 

That said, my main gaming Apple is my //c.

Just much more convenient. It sits on the shelf in the office next to the Vectrex.

It's got the little green screen, and there's just something about it (nostalgia?) about that combination.

 

I do sometimes go downstairs to my //e with his Mockingboard, Color Monitor /// and DuoDisk (double disk drive) from time to time.

But really, the //c has been plenty for me..

 

desiv

(Yes, I can hook the //c to a color monitor.. I just like the green screen..

Edited August 16, 2015 by desiv

[Osgeld]

I have to agree with the //c

 

if you want a compact has all the basics plug n play apple II computer get a //c (not a C+)

 

if you want a desktop computer to fiddle around with cards and configurations get a //e or //ee

 

my only // at the moment is a //c, sometimes I wish it had better mass storage or a sound card, but a massive amount of software takes advantage of neither, so a box o floppies and ADT (apple disk transfer) pro is usually what my go-to is (and since you get it all from the internet I bet over half of my box of 10 floppies are actually used as I just overwrite them when playing something new)

Edited August 16, 2015 by Osgeld

[The Usotsuki]

The IIgs is good for IIgs stuff. Its backward compatibility is very good but sometimes you run into corner cases.

 

The //c has some firmware bugs but nothing significant. That, or an Enhanced/Platinum //e (1985 or later) with the 80 column/RAM card, and you're about good to go.

 

(The older //e with the 6502 - boot splash "Apple ][" - has more significant firmware bugs, and won't necessarily run 128K games as some of those need a 65C02.)

[Keatah]

I tend to agree with all the reasons stated why each model is good or bad. Some additional thoughts and opinions, keeping in mind games:

 

So it comes down to the following..

 

1- Apple //e enhanced with 64K/80column upgrade card

2- Apple //e Platinum

3- Apple //c

4- Apple IIgs

 

Regarding the II and II+, they're non-contenders because of the amount of mods and upgrades needed. And some necessary upgrades aren't really possible on those two models without herculean efforts. And the end result would be an enhanced //e anyways! So no. The //c+, no, too, for reasons stated previously. So let's forget about them unless you get one for free. And then we'll convince you to upgrade.

 

Pay no attention to the $2,500 price tags on the older II's. They're collector's items and you wouldn't wanna beat it up playing game.

 

One thing I strongly suggest is that you learn how to use ADTPro. This package has been in development for years and is well polished. And it works old-school too in that the Apple machine itself does its fair share of the work. And there is a learning curve. Once you get over the hump its like flying a plane, things come natural and you can operate it without thinking. You just do it. And it's pretty quick too. 30 seconds per side.

 

If you do ADTpro on the //c or IIgs, all you need is a cable and USB-to-serial adaptor or combo cable. Cheap. On the //e you need to get a SuperSerial Card. This gives you the serial port, which is standard on the //c and IIgs.

 

 

I wonder how many popular late-70s and early-80s machine language games depended on undocumented NMOS op-codes, making them buggy or unplayable on any CMOS Apple II.

 

Mike B.

 

Not a hell of a whole lot. I only encountered maybe 20 titles since 1977. And they were more obscure ones. For those that you absolutely have to see and play, you can fall back to emulation if you really really really want to try them out. Or get a II+. Or un-enhance your //e..

 

I think there more incompatible applications due to the way the 80-column card was implemented on the II+ vs. the enhanced //e. Many productivity applications were written with the Viewterm, Visiterm, View-80, Videx and umpteen other V-something 80-column cards in mind. And all had to be re-evaluated or patched.

 

On the //e, all 80-column activity is done the same way.

[airsoftmodels]

the apple //c that i bought in 1984 served as my game machine until 1994, when still fully functional, i gave it away to a co-worker. after the initial outlay of $1,295, i accumulated hundreds of copied games from a myriad of high school computer geeks like myself. i only bought a handful of disks such as Conan, which was my favorite. the //c, with its 9" green screen served its purpose so well, that i was completely unaware of the tsunami console which hit our shores in 1986 the NES. the reason i finally grew tired of the //c games? i would have to say i was lured in by the absolutely beautiful graphics of the Super Nintendo. coupled with the fact that I had graduated from College, started working, and finally had some disposable income to spend on the $200 console and $60 cartridges. so i would say that the low (for apple) buy in price, which included all the features you had to pay extra for on the IIe, coupled with a robust game library of which almost everything i tried to run on it worked, with the exception of drol, makes the //c the best apple II for gaming.

[Tempest]

A 128K IIe or IIc will play 99.9% of Apple II games. There are still a few that use some weird illegal opcodes and only work on the II or II+, but those have all been patched by now (it was usually the copy protection that was the problem). The IIe is actually slightly more compatible than the IIc since it has the original 6502 (not the 65c02 which caused some of the opcode issues) and can support the game paddles that some early games need.

 

The IIGS isn't bad, but it has issues with some Apple II stuff. I'd say the IIGS is 95% compatible. Of course the RGB output makes Hi-Res and Double Hi-Res graphics look a bit 'funny' sometimes.

 

A cheap IIe with some disk drives (I recommend two but you can get by with one) and a Super Serial Card shouldn't run you more than $30-$50. This will allow you to play just about everything out there and you can transfer files to disks using ADTPro. I'd also recommend a nice Apple II monitor since they seem to do the best at artifacting for some reason, but you can get by with any old monitor or a TV.

[Bill Loguidice]

All good responses. My personal vote would be for the Apple IIe Platinum, followed by the Apple IIGS (it loses points for lack of a cassette port, which is handy for easily loading software/creating disk images from the Internet). The Apple IIGS is far more difficult and expensive to set up an optimal system for, however, particularly if you want access to all IIGS games since you'll need expanded memory.

[Osgeld]

Don't need a cas port to transfer if you have a serial card which the GS and c models do stock

[Keatah]

A 128K IIe or IIc will play 99.9% of Apple II games. There are still a few that use some weird illegal opcodes and only work on the II or II+, but those have all been patched by now (it was usually the copy protection that was the problem). The IIe is actually slightly more compatible than the IIc since it has the original 6502 (not the 65c02 which caused some of the opcode issues) and can support the game paddles that some early games need.

 

There are 4 base models of the //e

 

The first release (not many around) that have a mainboard that cannot do Double-HiRes graphics.

The second, what we consider a base //e model. Very plentiful.

The third, an enhanced //e, contains 4 upgraded chips - 3 ROMs and a 65c02. Also very plentiful.

The fourth, the Platinum edition, an enhanced //e with less chip count and a numeric keypad.

 

The enhanced vs. unenhanced main differences are an upgraded ROM for mousetext symbol character generation, a difference in how inverse and flashing text behave, and a couple of firmware entry points are different IIRC. And then there is the 65C02 with new and different op-codes.

 

Enhancing a machine is a 4-chip swap, or un-swap if you need to revert back.

 

The Platinum is "full-time" enhanced and that is that. The Platinum model is also the most reliable of the II series.

[Tempest]

Unless you're into some old productivity software there's no need for an enhanced IIe.

[Bill Loguidice]

Unless you're into some old productivity software there's no need for an enhanced IIe.

 

I disagree. Having 128K opens up additional game options. While it's true that a majority of software used 48 - 64K, a notable portion required 128K.

[Keatah]

I disagree. Having 128K opens up additional game options. While it's true that a majority of software used 48 - 64K, a notable portion required 128K.

 

Bill, You can have a 128K machine that is not enhanced.

 

The following explains what an Enhanced machine offers.

 

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.com/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/About%20Your%20Enhanced%20Apple%20IIe%20User%27s%20Guide.pdf

 

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.com/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/machines/IIe%20Enhancement%20Kit.pdf

 

 

Unless you're into some old productivity software there's no need for an enhanced IIe.

 

I suppose. But then you can't run the latest version of Pro-Dos, do AppleWorks, or work with the latest Copy II+.

[Tempest]

 

I suppose. But then you can't run the latest version of Pro-Dos, do AppleWorks, or work with the latest Copy II+.

All pretty much unneeded in this day and age unless you're into retro-productivity (is that a thing?)

[Iamgroot]

A 128K IIe or IIc will play 99.9% of Apple II games. There are still a few that use some weird illegal opcodes and only work on the II or II+, but those have all been patched by now (it was usually the copy protection that was the problem). The IIe is actually slightly more compatible than the IIc since it has the original 6502 (not the 65c02 which caused some of the opcode issues) and can support the game paddles that some early games need.

 

The IIGS isn't bad, but it has issues with some Apple II stuff. I'd say the IIGS is 95% compatible. Of course the RGB output makes Hi-Res and Double Hi-Res graphics look a bit 'funny' sometimes.

 

A cheap IIe with some disk drives (I recommend two but you can get by with one) and a Super Serial Card shouldn't run you more than $30-$50. This will allow you to play just about everything out there and you can transfer files to disks using ADTPro. I'd also recommend a nice Apple II monitor since they seem to do the best at artifacting for some reason, but you can get by with any old monitor or a TV.

 

I kinda remember a lot of the first games I tried playing required a joystick with no keyboard option. Not easy to play these games on the IIc or IIGS.

 

And although the IIGS is only about 95 % compatible with the older games, it has whole repitoire of games that do not have an equal game to be played on older machines. So I believe this raises the compatability to 99.9 % for the IIGS and maybe 90% for all the older models.

 

So I vote IIGS.

[Great Hierophant]

I would also hone in on the Apple IIe. The //c is too limited due to the lack of expansion slots and can get a bit tricky to get up and running with ADTPro without cassette ports. You also cannot use cassette software and you cannot use 13-sector disks. You cannot use sound cards like the Mockingboard with a //c. You can, however, use paddles that fit into the 9-pin joystick/mouse port. Apple did release a pair, but they can hard to find. Just remember that Apple Paddles are Apple Joysticks cut in half.

 

An unenhanced Apple IIe, upgraded to 128KB, should be sufficient to run any game including those with wacky copy protection (many Atarisoft games) and games using unofficial opcodes (original Ultima's Space combat). 128KB does not equal an Enhanced IIe. I recommend the unenhanced IIe for hassle-free game playing, especially if you want to use real disks. Now as far as 65C02 support, it is the Pro DOS versions 2.x, AppleWorks versions 5.x and Copy II+ versions 9.x that appear to require it. You should be able to avoid these easily enough.

 

This is how I would have a fully loaded unenhanced IIe:

 

M - 64KB Memory Expansion

1 - Super Serial Card (for ADTPro)

2 - Super Serial Card (for Printer)

3 - Mockingboard #2

4 - Mockingboard #1

5 - Mouse Card

6 - Disk II or DuoDisk Controller

7 - CFFA 3000

 

If you are looking for Apple IIGS game support, you can get very reasonable support with a memory upgraded ROM 01 unit. Some games are incompatible with ROM 03 units. I have also read that ROM 03 units may be more compatible with some pre-IIGS games due to bug fixes. Some later games like Out of this World or Wolfenstein 3D are not really going to be playable unless you invest major money into an 8MB RAM card and a really fast CPU accelerator.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Great Hierophant

[walterg74]

I would also hone in on the Apple IIe. The //c is too limited due to the lack of expansion slots and can get a bit tricky to get up and running with ADTPro without cassette ports. You also cannot use cassette software and you cannot use 13-sector disks. You cannot use sound cards like the Mockingboard with a //c. You can, however, use paddles that fit into the 9-pin joystick/mouse port. Apple did release a pair, but they can hard to find. Just remember that Apple Paddles are Apple Joysticks cut in half.

 

An unenhanced Apple IIe, upgraded to 128KB, should be sufficient to run any game including those with wacky copy protection (many Atarisoft games) and games using unofficial opcodes (original Ultima's Space combat). 128KB does not equal an Enhanced IIe. I recommend the unenhanced IIe for hassle-free game playing, especially if you want to use real disks. Now as far as 65C02 support, it is the Pro DOS versions 2.x, AppleWorks versions 5.x and Copy II+ versions 9.x that appear to require it. You should be able to avoid these easily enough.

 

This is how I would have a fully loaded unenhanced IIe:

 

M - 64KB Memory Expansion

1 - Super Serial Card (for ADTPro)

2 - Super Serial Card (for Printer)

3 - Mockingboard #2

4 - Mockingboard #1

5 - Mouse Card

6 - Disk II or DuoDisk Controller

7 - CFFA 3000

 

If you are looking for Apple IIGS game support, you can get very reasonable support with a memory upgraded ROM 01 unit. Some games are incompatible with ROM 03 units. I have also read that ROM 03 units may be more compatible with some pre-IIGS games due to bug fixes. Some later games like Out of this World or Wolfenstein 3D are not really going to be playable unless you invest major money into an 8MB RAM card and a really fast CPU accelerator.

 

That's all fine and dandy, except for the fact that it's way OT...

 

Question wasn't which is the best apple ii, it was which is the best for gaming, and pretty sure you don't need any of all that to enjoy the games library...

[Keatah]

Retro-Productivity? Probably just with word processors. My wife still uses WordStar.

 

I still use the following:

MS Word 2.0a on Win 3.1

Text editor in ProTerm on Apple //e

Office 2003 + the standard notepad.