FPGA Based Videogame System

[Keatah]

The "defective" ones are starting to fail now. That is a phenomenal lifespan. In today's world tech is built to fail about a month after the warranty expires so I don't think 30 years is anything that anybody has a right to complain about.

 

Today's tech (with exceptions) is built too thinly, I don't mean size-wise, but instead insufficient material usage. Not enough to form proper seals, not enough to guard against flexure or material expansion or contraction. Not even enough care and attention to detail to ensure that bonding materials have the same expansion coefficients as the stuff they're supposed to hold together. Not considering the shape and stress points either. All that takes testing, time, and analysis. If they can slap it together and make it work long enough to get you through the contract. Fine by them.

 

This is extremely evident in Flash memory and mobile devices. While at the same time, some microprocessors from intel are at the other end and highly reliable over many decades.

 

30 years is nothing when advertisements and technical papers say solid-state is meant to last a lifetime.

[Wolf_]

 

Today's tech (with exceptions) is built too thinly, I don't mean size-wise, but instead insufficient material usage. Not enough to form proper seals, not enough to guard against flexure or material expansion or contraction. Not even enough care and attention to detail to ensure that bonding materials have the same expansion coefficients as the stuff they're supposed to hold together. Not considering the shape and stress points either. All that takes testing, time, and analysis. If they can slap it together and make it work long enough to get you through the contract. Fine by them.

 

This is extremely evident in Flash memory and mobile devices. While at the same time, some microprocessors from intel are at the other end and highly reliable over many decades.

 

30 years is nothing when advertisements and technical papers say solid-state is meant to last a lifetime.

30 years is quite a lot when all the company is guaranteeing it will last for is the length of the warranty. People buy products with this understanding and having something last 10x longer than it is covered for is some damn good build quality.

 

Nintendo could have built them so that most of them fail after 10 years and saved a ton of money but instead we are only now seeing the weaker ones drop off.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I think complexity plays a role. Plain and simple, the more complex something is, the more components it has which can fail. Thus, the stats would be in favor of newer equipment having shorter lifespans than older equipment when equal in quality. I'm astounded at how resilient my Atari 2600 is. My NES is solid. Yet I've come across a huge number of bad SNES consoles.

 

Complexity of chips, number of solder points, number of capacitors... you name it, the more there is, it's just math... more likely to fail (over time). Who knows, maybe my NES will outlive my new AMD Ryzen 5 1600? I wouldn't be surprised!!

I'm not sure complexity is the whole issue. N64s are orders of magnitude more complex and very few consoles have failed. But perhaps the change to 3.3V logic, die shrinkage, and an incredibly faster clock speed meant tighter tolerances on manufacture. So the N64 CPU was more "exact" than the SNES one.

[Keatah]

I think complexity plays a role. Plain and simple, the more complex something is, the more components it has which can fail. Thus, the stats would be in favor of newer equipment having shorter lifespans than older equipment when equal in quality. I'm astounded at how resilient my Atari 2600 is. My NES is solid. Yet I've come across a huge number of bad SNES consoles.

 

Complexity of chips, number of solder points, number of capacitors... you name it, the more there is, it's just math... more likely to fail (over time). Who knows, maybe my NES will outlive my new AMD Ryzen 5 1600? I wouldn't be surprised!!

 

It can and it does. This is exactly where the increased accuracy and precision (there is a difference between the two terms) is needed when working with more complex chips. If you maintain those factors in production you'll be alright.

[Kismet]

The "defective" ones are starting to fail now. That is a phenomenal lifespan. In today's world tech is built to fail about a month after the warranty expires so I don't think 30 years is anything that anybody has a right to complain about.

The first one I have, failed around 12 years ago, it was stored in the garage for about 2 years after it was moved 800km, in it's original box. The one my sister bought and later died, was left in her room while she went to college, and died somewhere between then and last year. The SFC I acquired off eBay died literately moments after it had been powered off here. It was shipped from Japan. The one I acquired from the used video game store, was dead when I got it. I figured between all of these I might be able to make one working one, but they all had the same CPU failure. The only working one is the GPM-02 one, from the 1993 production line, all of the dead ones are SHVC-CPU-01.

 

So that is my worry is that if you have a working SNES, currently, it may still end up dead the next time it's packed up and moved. The common thing between all of these is that they were shipped or stored for a long period of time without being powered on. It's very likely as Keatah said, that some kind of thermal/humidity stress results in the CPU chip no longer being sealed and it just goes downhill from there. Since the CPU is not a off-the-shelf part, it can't be replaced with a good one. Any good CPU's are likely on newer boards.

 

The funny thing is, the NES is probably built better, despite having mechanical flaws, and edge connector oxidization that lead to malfunctioning. Time will tell if the N64 has a worse death rate, but there are reports of them starting to die too.

[RadikusRLZ]

The first one I have, failed around 12 years ago, it was stored in the garage for about 2 years after it was moved 800km, in it's original box. The one my sister bought and later died, was left in her room while she went to college, and died somewhere between then and last year. The SFC I acquired off eBay died literately moments after it had been powered off here. It was shipped from Japan. The one I acquired from the used video game store, was dead when I got it. I figured between all of these I might be able to make one working one, but they all had the same CPU failure. The only working one is the GPM-02 one, from the 1993 production line, all of the dead ones are SHVC-CPU-01.

 

So that is my worry is that if you have a working SNES, currently, it may still end up dead the next time it's packed up and moved. The common thing between all of these is that they were shipped or stored for a long period of time without being powered on. It's very likely as Keatah said, that some kind of thermal/humidity stress results in the CPU chip no longer being sealed and it just goes downhill from there. Since the CPU is not a off-the-shelf part, it can't be replaced with a good one. Any good CPU's are likely on newer boards.

 

The funny thing is, the NES is probably built better, despite having mechanical flaws, and edge connector oxidization that lead to malfunctioning. Time will tell if the N64 has a worse death rate, but there are reports of them starting to die too.

Thats the life, we all die someday =(

[kevtris]

My first SNES failure was just 2 years after it was new. This was the one that failed to run any game greater than 1Mbyte in size. The second failure was maybe 5-6 years later (so it would've been 8 years old). Third failure happened this year.

[Trinity]

God you guys make me want to go tell my two SNES's I love them just in case,,, before it's to late!

[Keatah]

Well step to it!

[Trinity]

Well step to it!

I just did. And they are both happy to operate for me. for now...

[Newsdee]

This is why we need a microprocessor babysitting the fpga. Something to smooth over all the rough edges and add amenities. Otherwise it feels cheap.

There are FPGA cores that implement a mini CPU to do these jobs (e.g. file load) but it's easier to keep that logic in an ARM CPU programmed in C. The technique is so common that the Cyclone V chips have a full ARM CPU on the silicon already, separate from the FPGA.

 

Edit: also in response to the original post to which you were replying, it is possible to make the core shut down when selecting another file... that's just a design choice.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Newsdee

[F34R]

Here's an SNES before I gave it a "bath"..

 

 

Gave it some TLC..

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

Here's an SNES before I gave it a "bath"..

 

 

Gave it some TLC..

 

My SNES still has a stain of unknown origin near the rear of the heat shield. The rust sports indicate a drip pattern but there's nothing to clean up around the PCB. Just a rust stain on the steel that shows at some point a foreign liquid dripped in. Not bothered enough to try and buff it out though.

[F34R]

Still a lot to clean on that one I posted. Still working fine, but I don't like knowing there's all that "stuff" on there lol.

[RadikusRLZ]

Where I can find NT MINI's Atari 2600 core the several bios files that needed, I cant find nothing on Internet:

avoxrom.bin - Atarivox PIC ROM (8K bytes, little endian)

avoxee.bin - Atarivox PIC EEPROM (256 bytes)

[killersquirel]

Where I can find NT MINI's Atari 2600 core the several bios files that needed, I cant find nothing on Internet:

avoxrom.bin - Atarivox PIC ROM (8K bytes, little endian)

avoxee.bin - Atarivox PIC EEPROM (256 bytes)

 

You can't as they haven't been publicly released. Kevtris (and potentially others) doesn't want to release any since the atarivox is still currently on sale.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Wasn't the PIC micro write protected? Even if Kevtris or someone with mad skills reverse assembled the Pic, it wouldn't be a 1:1 copy of the original ROM. The Speechchip guys have a vested interest to protect their investment, as selling a $4 part for $20+ is quite lucrative. I think Albert cut a deal buying in bulk though.

[Schizophretard]

There is only one device that will play ALL SNES carts and output HDMI. Only the SuperScope games will not be playable and that is no different from the NT Mini by HDMI with the zapper. Hence the only real reason to ask for Analog outputs would be to use the SuperScope. People who have a SuperScope, likely have the physical cartridge, and I'm not aware of any aftermarket ones.

 

If a cart is unplayable then I don't see how it can play all Super NES carts.

 

It isn't the only device and way to play Super NES games through HDMI and/or on a flat panel. If it were then no one would have past examples to even know if they prefer that emulated look to be interested in buying it in the first place.

 

I highly doubt that the only real reason the Nt Mini has all those analog outputs is so that people can play Zapper games on a CRT that they reserve exclusively for those Zapper games. There are likely many that actually prefer a CRT for all NES games and have a CRT for that reason as well as using it for a variety of consoles. Preference is a real reason. Even more so than Zapper games because preference applies to all games.

 

So the only competition to the Super NT is in fact the original SNES/SFC.

I disagree. The Super Nt is competing with any device and method that people may choose to play Super NES games on. However, I would consider the original Super NES the most direct one because if people have the original carts and controllers than they likely have a Super NES. Many of them also likely have a CRT that their Super NES is plugged into and prefer it that way. Therefore, in order for the Super Nt to compete against the original in such a way that leaves people with very little reason to leave a Super NES plugged in requires analog outputs as an option.

[Kismet]

 

If a cart is unplayable then I don't see how it can play all Super NES carts.

 

It isn't the only device and way to play Super NES games through HDMI and/or on a flat panel. If it were then no one would have past examples to even know if they prefer that emulated look to be interested in buying it in the first place.

 

I highly doubt that the only real reason the Nt Mini has all those analog outputs is so that people can play Zapper games on a CRT that they reserve exclusively for those Zapper games. There are likely many that actually prefer a CRT for all NES games and have a CRT for that reason as well as using it for a variety of consoles. Preference is a real reason. Even more so than Zapper games because preference applies to all games.

 

I disagree. The Super Nt is competing with any device and method that people may choose to play Super NES games on. However, I would consider the original Super NES the most direct one because if people have the original carts and controllers than they likely have a Super NES. Many of them also likely have a CRT that their Super NES is plugged into and prefer it that way. Therefore, in order for the Super Nt to compete against the original in such a way that leaves people with very little reason to leave a Super NES plugged in requires analog outputs as an option.

 

The most common zapper pack-in game was Duck Hunt. Therefor, being able to play that on a CRT should have been a given. It would have been more interesting to find a way to actually use the zapper with a LCD, but we know that is physically impossible owing to how it actually works. One would need to invent a new kind of zapper that works like the wii-mote does and at that point you may as well just play it on the PC with a mouse. Maybe when VR stops sucking someone will come up with the right idea and have a software emulator that uses the motion tracking to replicate this. That's a long way off since we're still on "VR sucks, 2015 edition", requiring $2000 in equipment to not suck/get sick.

 

There are no HDMI SNES options out there currently that are better than the stock SNES +framemeister. Retrobit/Hyperkin are flogging software emulators. Raspberry Pi's are doing the same. They're rubbish, expensive rubbish, trying to cash in on people who don't know better. This is one of the key reasons why people who have built FPGA SNES's have not released the VHDL for the chips, because they knew the people who sell these things would just steal it to build more rubbish knock-offs. As it is, have you seen what the "Supa Retron" looks like?

 

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/268529-super-retron-hd-announced/?p=3904269

 

That's 90% similar shape to the Super NT, people who don't know better, will end up buying these on eBay/Amazon thinking they're getting the Super NT.

Edited December 5, 2017 by Kismet

[Pixelboy]

I disagree. The Super Nt is competing with any device and method that people may choose to play Super NES games on. However, I would consider the original Super NES the most direct one because if people have the original carts and controllers than they likely have a Super NES. Many of them also likely have a CRT that their Super NES is plugged into and prefer it that way. Therefore, in order for the Super Nt to compete against the original in such a way that leaves people with very little reason to leave a Super NES plugged in requires analog outputs as an option.

I think you're stretching it a bit. It's like you're saying most people who are interested in the Super NT actually own a CRT television at home and will necessarily yearn to use it with the Super NT. Looking at the poll results of this very thread, I'd say that perception is a little off. It's more likely many people have their Super-NES plugged into a modern TV either via direct analogue inputs, or via an indirect method that converts the Super-NES analogue output to HDMI.

 

a) The greater majority of people out there ditched their CRT televisions years ago. You'll certainly find people who still own at least one CRT (heck, I'm one of those people, as my ColecoVision in my bedroom is plugged into a small CRT with a really nice picture quality, so I can understand why some people prefer CRT screens) but the majority don't and they don't miss those bulky TV sets. It is that majority that the Super NT is destined to cater to.

 

b) The Super NT will very likely offer the same kind of CRT-like display modes that the NT Mini offers. If that's not good enough for some people, and if those people can't enjoy a game based on its own merits just because the pixels are a little blockier than they were 20 years ago, then that's their loss. Me, I just want to play a good game of Super Mario World, Mega Man X or Super Castlevania IV.

 

If you want to play Super-NES games on a CRT, get a Super-NES if you don't already have one. The point of the Super NT is to bring Super-NES games into the 21st century with current modern TV screens and the HDMI standard. That's where the market is for a FPGA device such a this, and if having a Super-NES clone HDMI-only helps to keep the production costs (and the selling price) down, then I think that's the logical choice to make.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I have a CRT in my bedroom, and I'm not ready to ditch it just yet. But I know that I will ditch it eventually, and once I do, I won't really miss it all that much despite its nice picture quality. I like blocky pixels for 8-bit and 16-bit consoles, and like many people, I use 6x5 integer scaling on my NT Mini (plugged into a small flat panel TV via HDMI) and I will likely do the same with my Super NT. When I see people clamoring for analogue output, it makes me say "Really? You absolutely require fuzzy pixels to enjoy a classic 8-bit or 16-bit game? The game is actually less fun for you with blockier pixels?"

[Wolf_]

 

The most common zapper pack-in game was Duck Hunt. Therefor, being able to play that on a CRT should have been a given. It would have been more interesting to find a way to actually use the zapper with a LCD, but we know that is physically impossible owing to how it actually works.

I wouldn't say it is "impossible" just that it is a real pain in the ass. I know of two projects in the work right now for designing methods to play lightgun games on lcd displays:

The Interfacer by blissbox

 

And the LCD Zapper by Charlie Cole

https://youtu.be/mVedKqHTQaA?t=24m32s

 

I'm not sure about how blissbox is getting the first one working but I remember they said it worked fine on every system regardless of the lightgun technology as long as the area wasn't too bright and Charlie's device uses motion sensing to fill in the missing information but that adds some lag.

 

For right now the best option would probably be just picking up the wii remakes and playing them that way. It has some really good games like my all time favorite "House of the Dead" and a few dozen more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gun_games#Wii

 

And if you hacked your wii the homebrew channel has a few games as well like a surprisingly playable duck hunt

 

I think homebrew on the wii will probably be the way to preserve lightgun games that didn't get an official release on it. Especially compared to using a lightgun with motion tracking just using motion tracking would probably be a lot smoother.

[wingzrow]

why is there no Neo Geo Pocket Or Neo Geo Pocket Color Core? Is that handheld not 8-bit?

 

Edited December 5, 2017 by wingzrow

[NE146]

Let's ask him. Kev can you just whip out a Neo Geo Pocket core out of your butt please. Thanks!

[cfillak]

why is there no Neo Geo Pocket Or Neo Geo Pocket Color Core? Is that handheld not 8-bit?

 

No, the NGP/C has a 16-bit CPU. There is no NGP/C core because Kevtris hasn't written one yet, and he's obviously spent the better part of this year working on the SNES core for the Super NT. Also, a CPU being 8-bit or 16-bit doesn't make it magically capable of being possible on the NT Mini or Super NT. There's alot more work needed to reverse engineer each system and its quirks. That said, I suspect the NT Mini isn't powerful enough to run an NGP/C core, but the Super NT probably is. Also you have to keep in mind that alot of the extra cores available on the NT Mini were completed by Kevtris over a period of years before he worked with Analogue on the NT Mini, so their rapid fire release onto the NT Mini was actually him porting/modernizing them to the NT Mini and getting the HDMI functionality working with all of them. Another thing to keep in mind that alot of the 8-bit systems that have cores share some hardware components, so FPGA implementations of some CPUs can be re-used for other cores. Kevtris hasn't implemented the NGP/C's Toshiba TLCS900H CPU for any other cores, so that would need to be done. It looks like the NGP/C uses a Z80 for sound, which he has implemented for other cores, so could probably be re-used for the NGPC with some adjustments.

 

If I were you I wouldn't expect any news on an NGPC core until at LEAST after the Feb. 2018 launch of the Super NT, and the only news would be Kevtris telling us he's started working on it. Personally, I suspect Analogue will have him move onto a Genesis core after the Super NT is out the door (assuming the launch goes smoothly). My prediction is that Analogue's next product after the Super NT will be an FPGA Genesis, the Analogue GN or some such name. It'll be funny to have one company selling products from both sides of the console wars.

Edited December 5, 2017 by cfillak

[wingzrow]

Now THAT, is a response. I had assumed it was just as powerful as the gameboy color since they were in direct competition with each other. The GBC & NGPC actually use LCD screens from the same line of screens (or manufacturer), so they're similar in that respect at least. good to hear the sound is so similar. I heard kevtris ported the Game Gear for the sonic games, so maybe sonic's pocket adventure gets his interest.