FPGA Based Videogame System

[lekrang]

Hey Kevtris,

 

My Super NT just arrived a few hours ago and, while I haven't had time to really dig into it yet, I just wanted to congratulate you on another successful project and thank you for all of the other stuff that you've done for the community. I don't post here often, in fact I think my last post here was made simply to express my interest in the "zimba 3000" and to throw my opinions into the initial poll, and frankly it's amazing to think of how far things have come in what seems like a relatively short time. Even though the Super NT doesn't quite realize the full concept of the Z3k as a truly shape shifting FPGA mega-console as of now, I just want to say that I'm really glad to have been able to support your work in some form and to buy what seems to be arguably the best option around to play Super Nintendo games to date. The SNES is among my favorite consoles, with such a massive and awesome library of games that I know that I'll easily get hundreds and hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of this device. Also, as someone who also loves listening to emulated chiptunes and stuff like that, thanks for all of your work on that front for many years with things like NSF.

 

As for everyone else, relax a little, all right? Try to take a break from constantly thinking about what you want and instead focus a little bit on what you have. As someone who doesn't own physical copies of some of his favorite games, I'm just as hopeful and excited about the prospect of a "jailbreak" patch as the next person here. But I think there is a line where "hope and excitement" starts to become "greed and entitlement", which some people here are beginning to straddle. Don't instantly argue with that, just think about it for a second. Those of us who have a Super NT got exactly what has been advertised so far - not a Z3k, not an Nt mini, but a kick ass little Super NT that plays some of the greatest games of all time with (I've heard) is stunningly accurate, responsive, and compatible. I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a jailbreak to play ROMs, or to load up other cores, etc., but it's also important to realize desire for more will always exist and you can't just let that desire dominate you. Kevtris created a great device, and people want more. He may at some point unlock the potential of the Super NT, and some people will still want more - more bells, more whistles, more games, more cores, etc... That's natural to some extent as we're all fans of these consoles and games, but it's also an urge that we have to fight against because it ultimately leads to taking things for granted. I'd love to have a device that takes full advantage of the size and flexibility of the hardware that Kevtris put on it, with fun things like the Nt Mini has, but I know (just like we all know deep down) that neither Kevtris nor Analogue owe us anything beyond what we paid for; a great little HDMI SNES!

 

I think this is a great time to be into retro games, because of the hard work of people like Kevtris (and I'm sure many others who make emulators, hacks, formats, modkits, etc.). But let's all take some time to step back from wanting "the next shiny thing", to appreciate what we have, and to give credit where credit is due. If you're hopeful and excited about the idea of a Nt Mini-esque jailbreak firmware (as I am, and as most of us probably are) then please continue to be, but please also take care not to step across that line where we become greedy and entitled, don't be rude and don't take things for granted - just play the games that you have on cartridge so far, enjoy them, and wait patiently for Kevtris to do whatever it is that he wants to do.

 

Well said!

[bootsector]

Hey Kevtris,

 

My Super NT just arrived a few hours ago and, while I haven't had time to really dig into it yet, I just wanted to congratulate you on another successful project and thank you for all of the other stuff that you've done for the community. I don't post here often, in fact I think my last post here was made simply to express my interest in the "zimba 3000" and to throw my opinions into the initial poll, and frankly it's amazing to think of how far things have come in what seems like a relatively short time. Even though the Super NT doesn't quite realize the full concept of the Z3k as a truly shape shifting FPGA mega-console as of now, I just want to say that I'm really glad to have been able to support your work in some form and to buy what seems to be arguably the best option around to play Super Nintendo games to date. The SNES is among my favorite consoles, with such a massive and awesome library of games that I know that I'll easily get hundreds and hundreds of hours of enjoyment out of this device. Also, as someone who also loves listening to emulated chiptunes and stuff like that, thanks for all of your work on that front for many years with things like NSF.

 

As for everyone else, relax a little, all right? Try to take a break from constantly thinking about what you want and instead focus a little bit on what you have. As someone who doesn't own physical copies of some of his favorite games, I'm just as hopeful and excited about the prospect of a "jailbreak" patch as the next person here. But I think there is a line where "hope and excitement" starts to become "greed and entitlement", which some people here are beginning to straddle. Don't instantly argue with that, just think about it for a second. Those of us who have a Super NT got exactly what has been advertised so far - not a Z3k, not an Nt mini, but a kick ass little Super NT that plays some of the greatest games of all time with (I've heard) is stunningly accurate, responsive, and compatible. I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a jailbreak to play ROMs, or to load up other cores, etc., but it's also important to realize desire for more will always exist and you can't just let that desire dominate you. Kevtris created a great device, and people want more. He may at some point unlock the potential of the Super NT, and some people will still want more - more bells, more whistles, more games, more cores, etc... That's natural to some extent as we're all fans of these consoles and games, but it's also an urge that we have to fight against because it ultimately leads to taking things for granted. I'd love to have a device that takes full advantage of the size and flexibility of the hardware that Kevtris put on it, with fun things like the Nt Mini has, but I know (just like we all know deep down) that neither Kevtris nor Analogue owe us anything beyond what we paid for; a great little HDMI SNES!

 

I think this is a great time to be into retro games, because of the hard work of people like Kevtris (and I'm sure many others who make emulators, hacks, formats, modkits, etc.). But let's all take some time to step back from wanting "the next shiny thing", to appreciate what we have, and to give credit where credit is due. If you're hopeful and excited about the idea of a Nt Mini-esque jailbreak firmware (as I am, and as most of us probably are) then please continue to be, but please also take care not to step across that line where we become greedy and entitled, don't be rude and don't take things for granted - just play the games that you have on cartridge so far, enjoy them, and wait patiently for Kevtris to do whatever it is that he wants to do.

I would like this a thousand times if I could! People should be thankful to the amazing stuff kevtris has done. And playing SNES games on their Super Nts!

[haightc]

 

I agree and personally would really love to play that on the mini, but I gotta admit if I were kevtris it wouldn't be on the top of my priority list. The legend of link as well as one other mmc5 mario rom hack both don't save properly iirc, but they also aren't retail carts so who knows if they implemented mmc5 correctly or not. I do know there exists repo carts made of them; I'd be curious if they work correctly in the nt mini but I'm not sure what I'd do with that knowledge in either outcome. If I were kevtris I'd probably be working on ironing out all the Super NT bugs popping up (not that there are a ton) and then maybe the S-video/composite issue in the nt mini's jailbroken firmware.

 

RE genesis: just an fyi if you missed it from the livestream but kevtris said 32X was a definite no go, and CD would be very difficult.

 

What JVC CRT do you have that can do 720p out of curiosity? Love my little 16.5'' JVC but it only goes up to 480i.

Based on that livestream info a megadrive FPGA. It would have to have the analog out and expansion connector for me to even consider it. Plus I am sure people will also expect it so play SMS games just like the original genesis.

 

JVC DT-V1710CG, does up to 720p on HD-SDI and analog RGB. So it'll be nice to see what it looks like on a 4:3 HD monitor compared to a SFC at 240p

[keepdreamin]

Upscaling 720p to 1080p creates input lag, and most 1080p tvs have crappy built-in upscalers. The amount of lag obviously varies by TV. I wasn't suggesting you buy a new 1080p tv, you could get a 49" used one for $50 on craigslist that would vastly improve your setup.

 

 

Again, generally speaking, you're incorrect.

 

I don't know how else to explain this to you.

 

If you have a 1080P TV with say 70ms of input lag with a 1080 source, that's not good. The delay with a 720 source on that same TV is MOST LIKELY in the same ballpark, and the difference between the two figures is negligible peanuts.

 

On the other hand, if you have a 1080P TV with very low input lag with a 1080 source , again a 720 source will LIKELY be in the same ballpark.

 

An HDTV will either be great across digital sources, or suck across digital sources. I have never encountered a TV with low lag in 1080P and all of a sudden it got worse with 720. I've never read about people complaining either other than you putting forward this unfounded conjecture.

 

So yeah, man. Stop telling people they should avoid 720 on their 1080 sets for fear of this urban legend you've concocted. Knock it off.

[bozo55]

Has anyone tried their Super NT with a 1440p monitor? I have an Asus PG279Q and I'm hoping it will be the perfect companion for the Super NT running with scanlines and gamma boost at 720p.

Edited February 12, 2018 by bozo55

[SegaSnatcher]

Man, you guys spent a lot of time looking up stuff for someone who is happy with his current setup!

 

Everyone has different priorities. Up until last year, I was gaming on a 23" LCD TV. Only reason I bought a 50" tv to replace it is because my fiancé got frustrated with the size and wouldn't play games with me unless I got something bigger.

But why limit yourself to such a crappy display with such a high quality device such as the Super NT, especially when there are fantastic displays on the cheap these days. Like I said before, there is no excuse to own such garbage displays in 2018, even on a tight budget. $330 and you have a pretty solid Display for retro gaming.

[keepdreamin]

But why limit yourself to such a crappy display with such a high quality device such as the Super NT, especially when there are fantastic displays on the cheap these days. Like I said before, there is no excuse to own such garbage displays in 2018, even on a tight budget. $330 and you have a pretty solid Display for retro gaming.

 

"Man, you guys spent a lot of time looking up stuff for someone"

 

I didn't really have to spend anytime looking that up because I was already aware of it. All of 5 seconds to pull the page ctrl C + ctrl V. I'm quite familiar with the equipment being mentioned.

[Kismet]

For 32x and Sega CD, why not use multiple fpga chips?

 

Cost.

 

Up front, if you have thousands of dollars to throw at a game console, you could make it do anything. There is a concept called "law of diminishing returns", which is the point that no amount of money will ever justify investment (be that cost or time.) The price point, as indicated by the poll at the beginning of this thread is $199.

 

It's within reason to simulate any chip that operates up to about 40Mhz in a cheap FPGA. Past that point the price for the FPGA jumps. To give you an idea:

The Cyclone V used in the Super NT.. The Cyclone V is a 28nm chip built on the same process as cpu's from 2013-2016.

The Cyclone 10, is a 14nm chip, so it has 4x the amount of space in the same area.

 

The Cyclone V, E series, The A2 is $50 (25K LE), the A4 is $71 (49K LE), A5 is $126 (77 LE), A7 $227 (149.5K LE), A9 $373 (301K LE)

The Cyclone 10, LP series, 10CL025 is $39 (24K LE), 10CL040 is $56 (39K LE), 10CL055 is $88 (55K LE), 10CL080 is $119 (80K), 10CL120 is $205 (119K LE)

 

Both of those series are generally labeled "low speed/low power" chips. For the purposes of just getting a price I picked the first chip that showed up on digikey.

 

Now if you go look up the soft cores for the SH2 (you'd need two of them for the 32X or Saturn), according to jcore's own website you'd need at least a Spartan 6, XC6SLX9, which has 9K LE and costs $25. It can run the sh-2 core at 50mhz.

 

So there is already the means to do the CPU's. That does nothing about the 32X VDP, audio or bus/bandwidth/memory requirements. Like it may very well be possible to do the 32X, but it might require more block memory in the FPGA which is only provided by the most expensive models, or you have to start adding SRAM/PSRAM to the FPGA console.

 

To emulate a complete 32X, SegaCD, Mega Drive, Master System/SG3000/SG1000/Game Gear you need:

2 x SH-2 cores

2 x 68K cores

1 x Z80 core

1 x 32X VDP

1 x Mega drive VDP (includes PSG and Master System VDP features)

1 x Sega CD ASIC

1 x YM2612 (OPN2)

 

Various other chips like the RAM, DMA controller and so forth. The MD PCB has 12 chips on it. The Sega CD board has 16 chips on it. The 32X I think has 8, but most PCB images tend to only show one side of it. So you're looking at 36 chips, or at least the logic from them to work together. So as a FPGA console doing all of that probably feels overly redundant when there are shortcuts that can be taken knowing how the 32X, SegaCD and Megadrive/MD features fit together. Like to begin with you'd stick all the VDP parts together to remove the need for genlocking an analog signal and multiple DAC-ADC phases. Likewise for the audio. There is also at least one DSP cart for the Mega Drive (Virtua Racing.)

 

Like I completely see why doing the 32X and the SegaCD might be an incredibly insane undertaking. We know the MD is doable because there is already one partially-working core for the MiST/MiSTer project. That FPGA core is also incomplete. The most likely thing to happen would be to discard the 32X and SegaCD "attachment" features altogether and only ever run those from a SD-card, as that eliminates the most expensive parts. There is a reason why the Genesis III doesn't support either, and that's pretty much due to the amount of parts that would be needed to support something that most people won't have.

[Sneakyturtleegg]

This is probably a bad time to bring this up given all the other conversation, but I don't recall seeing anything about this earlier in the thread. What I want to know is if it's possible to play Wonder Boy III with FM sound on the Mini? I know the US version of the game is supposed to work with the FM mod and switched to the japanese region (although I can't seem to get it to work on my modded SMS, but that's another story....), but I can't figure out a way to get it to work on the Mini and I've tried all of the different BIOS, with the FM sound enabled too of course. Any help would be appreciated.

 

This piqued my curiosity. I couldn't get it to work either using roms from a certain someone's pack.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Sneakyturtleegg

[SegaSnatcher]

Kevtris could probably implement at least the Sega CD if he was given enough time and budget, but the problem is the Super NT's $189.99 price point set a new benchmark for Analogue.

A Mega NT Sega CD built in would probably be $300+ because of the FPGA or FPGAs needed to make that happen. They will want to shoot for a $189.99 price point again, so that pretty much kills any chance of Sega CD support happening.

Also, how would they advterise Sega CD feature if the Mega NT didn't come with a disc drive? They can't promote ISOs.

[Maarek_Stele]

Kevtris could probably implement at least the Sega CD if he was given enough time and budget, but the problem is the Super NT's $189.99 price point set a new benchmark for Analogue.

 

A Mega NT Sega CD built in would probably be $300+ because of the FPGA or FPGAs needed to make that happen. They will want to shoot for a $189.99 price point again, so that pretty much kills any chance of Sega CD support happening.

 

Also, how would they advterise Sega CD feature if the Mega NT didn't come with a disc drive? They can't promote ISOs.

Honestly, I think this is a complex enough topic that we would need to have Kevtris comment on what it would take to implement a SEGA Genesis, CD, 32x stack combo in a single system. It would be exciting to get that system in a box for under $200 with a CD drive and cart slot. But, speaking as an owner of a Full Sega Genesis, CD, 32x combo stack I will say that much of the fun of having that system is keeping it working and also just looking at the ridiculous contraption.

[Karbuncle]

Got my Super Nt in today and immediately upgraded to 4.0, then did a definitive lossless capture test in both limited and full ranges. Since I've already determined Higan (with Video Emulation options disabled) is exactly matching 2CHIP hardware colors, I've made the new comparison images much simpler (click on images to see full size):





Turning on gamma boost only made the situation worse, and using 601 color space made no difference. I'm hoping Kevtris can discern what Higan is doing different here and attempt to match it, because Higan is matching my real hardware 2CHIP console captures almost identically.

Edited February 12, 2018 by Karbuncle

[NE146]

Is that like one of those Spot the Difference kind of games?

 

[kevtris]

Got my Super Nt in today and immediately upgraded to 4.0, then did a definitive lossless capture test in both limited and full ranges. Since I've already determined Higan (with Video Emulation options disabled) is exactly matching 2CHIP hardware colors, I've made the new comparison images much simpler (click on images to see full size):

 

 

 

Turning on gamma boost only made the situation worse, and using 601 color space made no difference. I'm hoping Kevtris can discern what Higan is doing different here and attempt to match it, because Higan is matching my real hardware 2CHIP console captures almost identically.

higan was super dark compared to *my* 2 chip, and 1 chip though. I am not sure what else I can do since it's not like the snes has a palette like on the NES. Since it's 999 RGB (approximately) it isn't possible to make a palette either. It's 555 RGB but there is also the 4 bit brightness register to worry about, too.

[Karbuncle]

higan was super dark compared to *my* 2 chip, and 1 chip though. I am not sure what else I can do since it's not like the snes has a palette like on the NES. Since it's 999 RGB (approximately) it isn't possible to make a palette either. It's 555 RGB but there is also the 4 bit brightness register to worry about, too.

 

I used the OSSC with optimal 4x timing and then adjusted RGB gain until pure white matched 255-255-255. My 2-CHIP console identically matched Higan once that was done. So in theory shouldn't calibration like this be possible with the Super Nt? I've asked byuu for input on what's going on here. Hopefully he can shed some light as to exactly how he's driving the color in Higan.

[Karbuncle]

Is that like one of those Spot the Difference kind of games?

 

 

If you can't see the difference, either your monitor needs work, or you're color blind. I'm not saying this as a joke or to troll either.

[bozo55]

 

If you can't see the difference, either your monitor needs work, or you're color blind. I'm not saying this as a joke or to troll either.

It seems most obvious with red to my eyes, being much less red in the 2nd and 3rd images.

[SegaSnatcher]

Got my Super Nt in today and immediately upgraded to 4.0, then did a definitive lossless capture test in both limited and full ranges. Since I've already determined Higan (with Video Emulation options disabled) is exactly matching 2CHIP hardware colors, I've made the new comparison images much simpler (click on images to see full size):

 

 

 

Turning on gamma boost only made the situation worse, and using 601 color space made no difference. I'm hoping Kevtris can discern what Higan is doing different here and attempt to match it, because Higan is matching my real hardware 2CHIP console captures almost identically.

Even with a side by side comparison its not a night and day difference. This isn't NES palettes level of difference here.

[Keatah]

I want cores! I want ROMZ! Jailbreak this, jailbreak that.. Speculations.. Expectations.. Kevtris this! Analog that!

 

[Newsdee]

I want cores! I want ROMZ! Jailbreak this, jailbreak that.. Speculations.. Expectations..

 

Meanwhile in Open Source land, we've just got a

Vectrex core courtesy of DarFPGA. The future is bright Now if only VeriSNES would release already...

Edited February 13, 2018 by Newsdee

[DarkkOne]

 

I used the OSSC with optimal 4x timing and then adjusted RGB gain until pure white matched 255-255-255. My 2-CHIP console identically matched Higan once that was done. So in theory shouldn't calibration like this be possible with the Super Nt? I've asked byuu for input on what's going on here. Hopefully he can shed some light as to exactly how he's driving the color in Higan.

 

How do they compare without the calibration steps? Can you post the "before" images?

[Namdor]

Just got my SNT all hooked up. Looks absolutely amazing. Thank you Kevtris! Classic Purple looks amazing on the led. I will use it during the day and turn it off at night. Are the 4 colors at boot adjustable by chance?

 

This is stellar! Can't wait to dig into my back log of games!

[katanaswordfish]

Got my Super Nt in today and immediately upgraded to 4.0, then did a definitive lossless capture test in both limited and full ranges. Since I've already determined Higan (with Video Emulation options disabled) is exactly matching 2CHIP hardware colors, I've made the new comparison images much simpler (click on images to see full size):

 

 

 

Turning on gamma boost only made the situation worse, and using 601 color space made no difference. I'm hoping Kevtris can discern what Higan is doing different here and attempt to match it, because Higan is matching my real hardware 2CHIP console captures almost identically.

 

It's not massive but there's definitely a difference there. In Higan the colors seem to be slightly warmer and more saturated than the NT, although the range of value seems about the same. The "limited" Nt output seems to be similarly saturated (colorful), but still not as warm as the colors in Higan, it also looks like it's crushing or compressing the darks which is why you can't see as many levels of the glowing gradient in Super Metroid.

 

So without a doubt, there's a minor difference in colors between Higan to the Super NT, but is one really more 'correct' than the other?

[Kismet]

higan was super dark compared to *my* 2 chip, and 1 chip though. I am not sure what else I can do since it's not like the snes has a palette like on the NES. Since it's 999 RGB (approximately) it isn't possible to make a palette either. It's 555 RGB but there is also the 4 bit brightness register to worry about, too.

 

This appears to be a case of the calibration being different. Between the second and third image, is only the difference of 16-235 vs 0-255. Between the first and third image, the first image is simply brighter.

 

Like picking the same pixel in both frames:

 

Higan(left) 0,107,140 ( #006b8c )

SuperNT(mid) 12,93,142 ( #0c5d8e )

SuperNT(right) 0,89,146 ( #005992 )

 

If I pick (or attempt to pick) the same pixel from my SNES, I get 0,99,134 (#006386) which is from the SA7160 set to RGB32

If I go back and tell it to do YUV2 I get 0,102,134 (#006686)

If I select RGB32 again, I get 4,96,133 (#046085)

Keep in mind that since the pixels are not square, it's not possible to grab the exact square pixel, and it's analog.

 

If I pick a white pixel (from the O in nintendo)

 

Higan (left ) 255,255,255 (#FFFFFF)

SuperNT(mid) 245,245,245 (#F5F5F5)

SuperNT(right) 255,255,255 (#FFFFFF)

 

My GPM-02 SNES, YUV2, 252,255,252 (#fcfffc)

My GPM-02 SNES, RGB32 218,228,230 (#dae4e6)

 

Basically when the capture output is set to RGB32, it's displaying YUV2 within the parameters of RGB32, thus it's darker.

 

At any rate, you're going to have to chalk this difference up to the capture capabilities presently.

 

Edit: now that I think about it, that middle image is wrong. If it's set to full input, but the image clamps to 12-245, that is still wider than it should be, which should be 16-235. RGB reference black is 16,16,16, and white is 235,235,235. so the correct input would Limited so it would expand it to 0-255.

 

editedit, I want and looked at the dark pixels in the image, there are places in the image where Higan has 0,8,8 but the middle image is 0,5,6 but the image on the right is instead 0,0,0

Edited February 13, 2018 by Kismet

[Prodigal Gun]

Just read on Nerdly Pleasures that the SNES PowerPak will not load games on the Super NT. I'm going to get a SD2SNES when I can afford it, but I was really hoping to use my PowerPak in the meantime. Has anyone heard any word on this issue?