FPGA Based Videogame System

[Andromeda Stardust]

He didn’t force his opinion.

He didn’t say anything to indicate that he doesn’t already know other opinions exist and that opinions are a two way street (on the contrary: “IMO” implicitly acknowledges other opinions).

He didn’t “force” his opinion.

 

That VAST majority of times I see conversations devolve this way, the person saying this is the one who is unable to tolerate the opposing opinion.

 

...but that’s just my opinion. [emoji6]

 

Bias is a predisposition toward supporting evidence and a disregard for contradictory evidence.

 

Now, if MSU-1 were really “very clearly” a real expansion chip then we wouldn’t be debating that, would we? [emoji6] I take issue with someone mischaracterizing our opinions. Rather than accepting our opinions as opinions, you have rejected them as “made up” and “redefined.”

 

See how that works? Defending your opinion as an opinion pretty much never helps the conversation. It’s almost like admitting that you have nothing else to back up the opinion so you just attack anyone who disagrees for not accepting your opinion. How can that ever end well?!

Thank you. I have no issue with people enjoying the "enhanced" SNES games, but rather just voiced my opinion that they cease to feel like SNES games when you inject stuff that wasn't meant to be there in the first place. Of course one could apply that reasoning to all ROM hacks, but a ROM hack typically modifies the game. Hence why Super Mario World and other games are popular fodder for hacking. People played the game to death multiple times, they want more, and a ROM hack with new level designs facilitates that desire.

 

Watching cutscenes injected into games does nothing for me because the games weren't designed around those parameters. Also technically the MSU-1 is not a physical "chip" design since there is no physical interpretation of it. Sure repro carts may someday become available with MSU-1 capabilities.

 

I'd rather people think outside the box and do actual homebrew programming with the technology. Hell perhaps even inject GBA games into the SNES. Since the MSU-1 can basically stream live video and audio to the SNES, perhaps a true GBA player (not a clone hardware that outputs composite and audio to an external screen and basically uses the SNES bus for power and controller inputs) that outputs video natively on the hardware might be possible by injecting digital 15-bit RGB to the SNES system. I'm not sure what the maximum window size is for MSU-1, but if it can push 240x160 pixels, then a native GBA player would be technically possible.

 

That's thinking outside the box. Design something that does not yet exist. The CD audio sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, but the injected scenes rarely do. I've stated my opinion; you are free to disagree with me on this. But please don't call me an "idiot" for stating it. I think CZroe did a better job voicing his opinion than I did, but it is clear that injecting 16-bit games with cutscenes makes a cute demo but I might as well do a let's play video and inject orchestral music and anime scenes into it.

 

One issue with pre-recorded soundtracks is game engines often change the instruments to change the mood while the game is playing. For instance you might approach a forboding area and the pallets darken and the synth instrument arrangements change to reflect that mood while still playing the same melody. The game engine turns instruments on and off on the fly which is something you cannot do with orchestrated or prerecorded music. The drum tracks when riding Yoshi in Super Mario World is a good example of this. In order to perform this trick with pre-recorded music, you need multitrack mixing. So you have your primary melody in stereo, and a drum melody that syncs to it but is normally muted. Hop on Yoshi, just mix in the drums. Somehow I doubt the MSU has the dedicated resources to handle and mix multiple stereo tracks together like this.

 

Or how that music box effect in Yoshi's Island where the tempo changes. If someone made a MIDI melody, they could change the tempo of that melody easily on their computer using on the fly controls. However render it to WAV format and it is fixed tempo. You cannot change the tempo or instrument arrangements on the fly like you can in the real game, so something is lost in translation. You would need a separate track with each possible tempo speed encoded to PCM, and time scale the rendered tracks so when you switch speed, it jumps to the proper track position seamlessly. This would be difficult to do which makes sense why so many Game Cube games used synthesized music when other PS2/Xbox games played live music. Nintendo could easily rearrange the composition as you move about in an area. Play Mario Sunshine and select a level and go stand in different areas for a while and see if the music stays the same. It doesn't depending upon location. Later Wii games used orchestrated music divided across multiple tracks so they could blend live music.

 

This isn't possible with CD era games or MSU-1. Nintendo hand-crafted the SNES samples and synths, and changes them to fit the mood of the game, which is something any prerendered scene cannot do. Something to think about as you wander around Hyrule listen to the music and how it slowly but seamlessly changes as you shift areas. There is no way to achieve this with prerecorded sounds. Even the way sound effects mask certain instruments on an old school synth is not easily replicated, but you don't really notice in game because your mind fills in the missing details.

 

But I think we have sidelined this discussion long enough. If you want random intermissions injected into the gameplay, it is fine by me. If you wan't someone else's top picks for video game remixes instead of the original sound, that is fine by me. I just don't see added value. It's like painting a rocketship into the background of Vincent Van Gogh's Starry Night. You just don't tamper with classic masterpieces.

[Andromeda Stardust]

The Super NT now has an unofficial community discord group! This was posted on the SmokeMonsterPacks/Super-NT-Jailbreak github. Quoted from Source:

 

Ugg, Is there some way we can view messageboard posts without an account? I'm not a fan of closed forums.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Kevtris, is there any concern damaging the console playing cheap chinese repros on the super NT? I don't really know if they exhibit the voltage mismatch previously discussed, but am sure they utilize whatever the cheapest components that they can find. I purchased a half-dozen repros of cost-prohibitive games off of ebay and want to make sure I'm not slowly destroying my console.

The Super NT itself runs on 3V logic internally and uses level translators for the 5V interfaces. So any cart that uses 3V logic internally without proper level translators and outputs a 3V signal to the cart bus should operate normally on the Super NT. There is no risk to the Super NT, though there is slight risk to the repro cart hardware of continued usage with Super NT or vintage SNES hardware, especially if your repro cart uses chips that do not have 5V tolerant inputs. A lot of 5V tolerant parts exist but these are more expensive so the bootleggers use the non-tolerant parts to save a few cents. Anything originating in China is suspect, however many quality repro producers based in the United states use 5V native logic or even still build repros with EPROMs. It really depends though upon who's making them.

 

TL;DR: your Super NT is safe but your 3V bootlegs may not last if it's driven out of spec for extended periods. Don't be surprised if your Aliexpress repro quits working some day.

[SegaSnatcher]

The Super NT itself runs on 3V logic internally and uses level translators for the 5V interfaces. So any cart that uses 3V logic internally without proper level translators and outputs a 3V signal to the cart bus should operate normally on the Super NT. There is no risk to the Super NT, though there is slight risk to the repro cart hardware of continued usage with Super NT or vintage SNES hardware, especially if your repro cart uses chips that do not have 5V tolerant inputs. A lot of 5V tolerant parts exist but these are more expensive so the bootleggers use the non-tolerant parts to save a few cents. Anything originating in China is suspect, however many quality repro producers based in the United states use 5V native logic or even still build repros with EPROMs. It really depends though upon who's making them.

 

TL;DR: your Super NT is safe but your 3V bootlegs may not last if it's driven out of spec for extended periods. Don't be surprised if your Aliexpress repro quits working some day.

I'd be more worried about those Chinese repro boards damaging the cart slot. They are usually very thick and not beveled.

[cacophony]

Ugg, Is there some way we can view messageboard posts without an account? I'm not a fan of closed forums.

 

It's more like irc, and I don't think you need an account. Just go to the page and you'll get a temporary username automatically. Or maybe I already set something up a long time ago and that's why I didn't have to do anything...

Lots of people in there at the moment.

[AtariNerd]

Yup, if you want to register/secure a user-name, you'll need to create an account, but just to join in, you don't have to.

[phoenixdownita]

The Super NT now has an unofficial community discord group! This was posted on the SmokeMonsterPacks/Super-NT-Jailbreak github. Quoted from Source:

 

That Kevin Lee pseudonym of the ServerAdmin sounds funny.

It's an unholy mix between kevtris name and the abominable "Mr. Lee" of Coleco Chameleon fame

[kevtris]

That Kevin Lee pseudonym of the ServerAdmin sounds funny.

It's an unholy mix between kevtris name and the abominable "Mr. Lee" of Coleco Chameleon fame

I did not create it so I am not related to it, btw.

[CZroe]

Pretty sure you have called it an expansion chip multiple times now, it is buried in all the posts but I could probably dig up you referring to it as such at least once if it really mattered to you. At the very least you said something about expansion chips and mentioned msu-1 at the same time. It certainly gave me the impression you were calling it an expansion chip multiple times.

I’ve referred to it that way too because the creator refers to it that way. Newsflash: It wasn’t “a chip” when Byuu defined the specs for his emulator. It didn’t even physically exist. Even as part of the SD2SNES, there is no discrete “chip” that does this function (integrated into the same FPGA performing the other functions that may or may not include expansion chips).

 

nobody for universal PPU.....

I believe Kevtris already did this himself in his Analogue Nt Mini.

 

My pipe dream: I want to see a composite flasher for R.O.B. support. [emoji4]

Edited March 2, 2018 by CZroe

[Jakir]

I’ve referred to it that way too because the creator refers to it that way. Newsflash: It wasn’t “a chip” when Byuu defined the specs for his emulator. It didn’t even physically exist. Even as part of the SD2SNES, there is no discrete “chip” that does this function (integrated into the same FPGA performing the other functions that may or may not include expansion chips).

It is a stupid debate to be having so this is the last I'll be commenting on it. It is implemented by the sd2snes the same way it would replicate any of the other enhancement chips it offers, and it performs the same functions as an enhancement chip. If you want to make a 10 page legal definition of an enhancement chip you might be able to split enough hairs to find a technicality that allows you to view it as not being an enhancement chip if that helps you sleep better at night.

 

But why you want to do that, why you would be so biased against cd quality music or fmv cutscenes added to some hacks of snes games so you could do things like restore the voices lost in the bsx game The Legend of Zelda Ancient Stone Tablets (which is the only way to listen to them and a valuable preservation effort) or just see what new soundtracks pair up with classic games or cool homebrew cutscenes can be added to old games/entirely new ones... it doesn't make sense. "The people that do that wasted their time" ...what??? No other homebrew games/mods get attacked like that. And what someone does with their free time is their business. If they like turning classic midi tunes songs into full orchestral remakes what skin is that off your nose?

 

If you don't like something or have a bias against something and don't want to try it and just believe you don't like it because that is more "pure" for you, thus enabling you to act like a snes elitist... well that's your own choice. But attitudes like that kill good things when you try to make it invalidate them. You should try not to be so close minded in the future.

[mrpopsicleman]

Both Kevtris and Krikzz consider the msu-1 to be an expansion chip, if you have any further questions debate it with them.

Not taking any sides in this debate (because I don't think it really matters what anyone considers it, just that it is and that it works). I would just like the point out that KRIKzz created the Everdrive line of products, and has nothing to do with MSU-1 nor the SD2SNES (which he only manufactures). Byuu of bsnes/higan fame created MSU-1 (which he touts as an "artificial expansion coprocessor"), and it was implemented into the SD2SNES firmware by that device's creator, ikari_01.

[NoKnownOrigin]

My 40 year old ears can detect a very faint sound from it with no cart in it. But I had to turn everything else in the room off, and put my ear a few inches away from it. I would never have known if I didn't check especially for you.

 

Yours might be louder though, I have no way of knowing that. I DO know that voltage regulators make more noise when they're bad/failing, so it could be a bad omen.

 

If you turn the led all the way down/off can you still hear anything?

 

LED lights making noise. Doo-doo, Doo-doo, TwilightZone music begins playing.

 

They don't make noise, but it's powered by a voltage regulator obviously, and those CAN make noise, as they're typically a switching type of regulator, they switch on and off thousands of times a second, and if something isn't quite right, sometimes the current switching is audible. The LED driver is also PWM at audible frequency, so it could be the LED driver itself.

 

Yeah, it being a voltage regulator of some kind sounds right since it seems to change when the power consumption changes. I can still hear it when the LED is turned off but it is a a much lower pitch (frequency?). IDK, like I said it is probably not important, and I can't hear it when the console is far away. I could try and figure out what the source is but I'm not really willing to open this thing up and scour the board with some sort of stethoscope.

 

On the subject of the MSU1: I don't think anybody has mentioned that it was also used as a tool to preserve gaming history by recreating the satellite broadcasts that played during the Satelaview Zelda events. That alone is worth the "chip" existing in my eyes. While it is true that a lot of the MSU1 games have soundtracks that don't really "fit" with the feel of the game the experience that Quertymodo and others gained making those patches helped prepare them to create this: http://bszelda.zeldalegends.net/bszelda.shtml

 

Plus, once a MSU1 patch has been created it is (relatively) easy to drop in any music you want, so if you do find some music that fits with the feel of the game you can update it.

 

 

[nonosto]

 

Sorry if this is a dumb question but what is the use case for this? Would you swap out the ppu in a NES/Famicom with this FPGA just to increase the maximum number of sprites?

 

 

 

He stated in the MLIG interview that those carts wouldn't hurt the Super NT.

 

Yes, I would like upgrade my NES with this Universal PPU. Increase sprite, and support all palette, version or region NES system based. Like this you can run arcade version about NES Game.

 

I’ve referred to it that way too because the creator refers to it that way. Newsflash: It wasn’t “a chip” when Byuu defined the specs for his emulator. It didn’t even physically exist. Even as part of the SD2SNES, there is no discrete “chip” that does this function (integrated into the same FPGA performing the other functions that may or may not include expansion chips).

 

I believe Kevtris already did this himself in his Analogue Nt Mini.

 

My pipe dream: I want to see a composite flasher for R.O.B. support. [emoji4]

 

I hope he will finish/complet his Hidef NES project. With this universal PPU all old NES run for eternity with optimal condition. I play with Mari bros 3 since hi def installation and so nicer and no laggy vs emulator....

Edited March 2, 2018 by nonosto

[kevtris]

 

Yes, I would like upgrade my NES with this Universal PPU. Increase sprite, and support all palette, version or region NES system based. Like this you can run arcade version about NES Game.

 

 

I hope he will finish/complet his Hidef NES project. With this universal PPU all old NES run for eternity with optimal condition. I play with Mari bros 3 since hi def installation and so nicer and no laggy vs emulator....

the hi def NES is complete. It is not going to be changed and there will only be bug fixes. The hi def uses the existing PPU so it cannot add more sprites or whatever. The FPGA on the board is at 99% capacity and there is no room to add anything else even if I wanted to.

[kwnage]

The Super NT itself runs on 3V logic internally and uses level translators for the 5V interfaces. So any cart that uses 3V logic internally without proper level translators and outputs a 3V signal to the cart bus should operate normally on the Super NT. There is no risk to the Super NT, though there is slight risk to the repro cart hardware of continued usage with Super NT or vintage SNES hardware, especially if your repro cart uses chips that do not have 5V tolerant inputs. A lot of 5V tolerant parts exist but these are more expensive so the bootleggers use the non-tolerant parts to save a few cents. Anything originating in China is suspect, however many quality repro producers based in the United states use 5V native logic or even still build repros with EPROMs. It really depends though upon who's making them.

 

TL;DR: your Super NT is safe but your 3V bootlegs may not last if it's driven out of spec for extended periods. Don't be surprised if your Aliexpress repro quits working some day.

 

The level translators present 5V logic level to the cartridge bus. So wouldn't that that extra bit of voltage get shorted out in the same way if the chips inside the cartridge aren't 5V tolerant, so the level translators would suffer a little bit, too?

[nonosto]

the hi def NES is complete. It is not going to be changed and there will only be bug fixes. The hi def uses the existing PPU so it cannot add more sprites or whatever. The FPGA on the board is at 99% capacity and there is no room to add anything else even if I wanted to.

Sorry I dont speak english very well. I would like said a couple of hardware Hidef + Universal PPU....also I would like to ask to finish Unierversal PPU FPGA code.

[vanfanel]

Hello guys! I noticed too late on the Super NT, and I have seen the SF and Classic models are already "sold out".

I have read somewhere that the Super NT is "discontinued", is that true? Won't be more SF batches available?

[cowabunga]

I've seen people mention Retro Circuits in this thread. They're a good place to purchase high quality SNES repro carts? Do they use the correct voltage in their carts for use in a real SNES and the Super NT without the possibility of being damaged?

 

There's two games I'm looking at on their site I want to possibly buy. I see they also take requests.

[kwnage]

Hello guys! I noticed too late on the Super NT, and I have seen the SF and Classic models are already "sold out".

I have read somewhere that the Super NT is "discontinued", is that true? Won't be more SF batches available?

Would be a bit soon to discontinue a product that has just been released, wouldn't it?

[Atariboy]

The Super NT isn't discontinued.

[vanfanel]

Well, thanks for your answers

I will wait for the new batch of the SF model then (as it has the external color scheme we had here in europe!)

Do you know of some estimated dates?

[Schizophretard]

You gotta be realistic though; they can't sell them forever and technically they are still helping preserve history by increasing the number of consoles in existence. Others in this thread have noted an increased rate of SNES hardware failures already. Given the nature of the NT Mini I think it's unreasonable to expect them to do another run if there is minimal demand considering the cost of the console. Who knows maybe they can't even order fewer than 5000 at a time. A plastic version makes more sense but if putting their efforts towards an Analogue MD would be more profitable for them then I don't see how I could blame them for making the smarter business decision. Keep in mind there has been a sub $200 HDMI only FPGA NES solution on the market for some time; the demand may not justify the development cost.

 

I am being realistic though. If after all of the NES clones that have existed we finally get the end all be all ultimate one that renders all clones and even the NES itself pointless to own then I think it is a reasonable and realistic assumption to assume it would be on the market at least until the demand has been met to an extent that ones being resold aren't going for over $1000 in NES Classic Edition Scalperville. Especially if there was no clear indication that it was intended to be a limited edition console.

 

Exactly. Everyone had a chance to get an NT Mini last year, and a small company can't afford to produce and warehouse a bunch of consoles that might not sell. There's already a cheaper FPGA NES available, plus NES fpga mods. Analogue would be smart to focus their resources on exciting new projects instead of a saturated NES market they've already served.

Everyone may have had a chance to get an Nt Mini last year but everyone didn't know that last year was their only chance. I decided to buy one on day one but didn't because from my point of view all the way up until it recently appeared that it may be discontinued it seemed to me that everyone that had bought one up to that point were early adopters and I would be able to buy it later at my convenience. On the other hand, if they would have made it abundantly clear from the beginning that it was limited edition then there is a good chance I would have one now because it would change my purchasing behavior to not wait. They probably would have sold a lot more that way too because there are just as many people if not more that wait to buy at their own convenience when they believe that is an option as there are of people that buy things ASAP. To use other retro things as examples, there are all kinds of mods, flash carts, homebrews, etc. that I intend to eventually purchase but I feel no urgency to spend thousands of dollars buying them all today because I believe I will still have the option to tomorrow. However, the ones that are marketed as limited runs I feel some urgency to put near the top of the list to purchase first. I had no indication that the Nt Mini belonged on the top of my list. If I would have known otherwise it would have been in the #1 spot at the very top of the list.

[Lexibug]

Well, thanks for your answers

I will wait for the new batch of the SF model then (as it has the external color scheme we had here in europe!)

Do you know of some estimated dates?

 

There's nothing official, but batch 1 shipped at the start of February, and batch 2 shipped at the start of March. If I were to guess, I'd say the next one will ship at start of April. Just check the store page every few days -- it took a few weeks for them to sell out of batch 2 SF colors.

[Mattelot]

I saw NT minis being sold last year for double their price once they were sold out. Once people realized they were discontinued, the price began to really climb. They're selling now for $1300+ and one even sold for $1900.

 

I hesitated on the original NT and I'm glad I did because the NT mini is a much better value and I really do hope they release (even if it is limited) a plastic variation to give those who missed out the opportunity to own and experience this gem.

 

The market for these would be much better if a cheaper plastic option was available and if the mindset was clearer... meaning the people who see things like this and immediately think "lolfakeNES" without realizing the difference between emulator clones and a device like this. It took a bit of explaining to a friend who could not understand for the life of him, why I would spend $500 on a Nintendo clone when I could just buy a NES classic or a Retron if playing on a flat screen meant that much to me. To him (and I'm sure many others), one clone is just as good as another.

 

I now regret hesitating on the Super NT

 

EDIT: Actually, I may just pre-order the black one today (pending the estimate on some repairs I have to get later...)

Edited March 2, 2018 by Mattelot

[kwnage]

I'm waiting for the next batch, too as I'd love to swap out my transparent SuperNt for a SF or Classic one.

I expected the transparent case to have a smoke / clear look, more like what was shown on their website, not as much of that frosty look that it has now... same goes for the 8bitdo controllers.