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FPGA Based Videogame System


kevtris

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

682 members have voted

  1. 1. I would pay....

  2. 2. I Would Like Support for...

  3. 3. Games Should Run From...

    • SD Card / USB Memory Sticks
    • Original Cartridges
    • Hopes and Dreams
  4. 4. The Video Inteface Should be...


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Kosmic Stardust - I know the tv tuner would be hard pressed to find a local analog signal in most countries. Get the "An 'Analogue' broadcast could still work" and LOCALIZED baby monitor reference? :) Also no typo - I know the Supergrafx but look a page or two back when I was schooled on the Uppergrafx being a thing and alternative to the Super SD System 3 whatever. All the same, if there is an all encompassing NEC device, a SGX-PC/TG if you will... it would really make sense to be a Supergrafx and all CD systems in one device. Basically a FPGA SuperGrafx and CD-rom drive in one. I only own a handful of games so don't care either way for original CD capacity. Just a NEC all in one that included SuperGrafx - only five games but at that stage, why NOT include SUPER-Grafx built in?

 

I noticed the focus less on Analogue's NES machine restock and hopefully it rings the bell of making the Super Nt soon to be an adapter/jailbreak firmware paradise like the sega system of ALL Nintendo systems up to a certain era. No need to serve two masters with the same FPGA- Super NT should be SNES, NES, famicom, disk system, and gameboy original if nothing else. THAT Super NT would sell like hotcakes and destroy retron and related clones forever.

 

Clearly they took a shot at Polymega. The failing pr of Ataribox is also ripe for plundering - a 2600/5200/7800 combo would be smart and hopefully LYNX. I don't know the FPGA limitations of Jaguar or Jaguar CD but a complete Atari system would really sell. Don't know how adding the A8 line would work without a keyboard. That would still neglect the ST so may be as well to stick to the Atari CONSOLE/HAND HELD line,

Look, if you want to receive analog broadcasts, just wire a pair of rabbit ears (or even just a length of hookup wire) to an Atari 2600, and place the Mega SG with the Game Gear adapter and tuner in close proximity. They don't have to touch each other. You'll get snow, bleed, reduced resolution, and other artifacts, but essentially you can play any classic rf console via fpga with this setup. However an old busted vcr with a composite to hdmi scalar would likely provide orders of magnitude better results... :P

 

I am wondering though, does the TV adapter convert analog signal to digital, or is there some composite feed in the cartridge port being decoded by the screen? The former (like using the Super Game Boy to play GB games on the Super NT) will work great, the latter (like using the Super Retro Advance to play GBA games on the Super NT), not so much.

 

EDIT: Dang, sold out on eBay AND Amazon, what are the odds???

https://www.ebay.com/p/Retro-Bit-Super-Retro-Advance-Nintendo-GBA-to-SNES-Adapter/691179157

https://www.amazon.com/Retro-Bit-Super-Retro-Advance-Adapter-SNES/dp/B00EXPCTQQ/

 

You guys may be happy to know I do not currently own the TV tuner adapter for Game Gear (or any Game Gear games) so I cannot test this odd duck peripheral upon release. I do plan on getting the Game Gear adapter and start collecting carts for the little 8-bit portable sega however.

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I'm not sure you got what I was getting at, but:

http://www.dvd6cla.com/royaltyrate.html, which DVD-RW patents expire in 2025

 

There are patents on things beyond mpeg-2, which consoles like the PS2/PS3/PS4 and Xbox/Xbox360/XboxOne unlock separately.

 

You need to get a drive that can not read DVD recordable discs to not run into a patent at present. Hence my point about needing a source of CD-ROM drives as all known patents expired in 2017.

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Well, for machines with the BIOS issue Analogue could sell a machine with no BIOS on saying you have to dump by yourself the BIOS from your own original machine, and then... ;-)

 

Non-starter of course.

 

Since software copyrights are now effectively 70 years after death of the author, there will not be any legal mechanism to put a copyrighted BIOS on a FPGA re-implementation of the hardware until like 2060, nor any ability to play those games legally in any form but the original media. The discs may last 100 years, but I doubt there will be new disc drives at all by 2030.

 

Honestly, what needs to change is copyright. Copyright is fine for protecting media that can be media shifted (eg CD's, Books, and Films) and then re-sold again and again. But Video Games do not media shift easily, and the holders of the copyright of the software often don't even realize they own it, may not have the source code, or that they can sell it again with a software emulator using the original image they provided to to the disc/rom duplication facility.

 

Given the trend lately of making every new game a microtransaction hell, I think there will eventually be more demand for DRM-free/microtransaction-free games, and if that only source comes from pre-internet consoles, something will shift eventually.

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I'm not sure you got what I was getting at, but:

http://www.dvd6cla.com/royaltyrate.html, which DVD-RW patents expire in 2025

 

There are patents on things beyond mpeg-2, which consoles like the PS2/PS3/PS4 and Xbox/Xbox360/XboxOne unlock separately.

 

You need to get a drive that can not read DVD recordable discs to not run into a patent at present. Hence my point about needing a source of CD-ROM drives as all known patents expired in 2017.

Why does this even matter? You don't need to skirt patent regulations to buy an oem off-the-shelf drive and load custom firmware on it.

 

Rewriteable discs are moot. DVDs came out in 1997, so all patents related to decoding them (based on 20 year patent cycle) should have passed by now. We still have DCMA to contend with, but you can now have your mp3s and mpeg2 codecs on the house.

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Honestly, what needs to change is copyright. Copyright is fine for protecting media that can be media shifted (eg CD's, Books, and Films) and then re-sold again and again. But Video Games do not media shift easily, and the holders of the copyright of the software often don't even realize they own it, may not have the source code, or that they can sell it again with a software emulator using the original image they provided to to the disc/rom duplication facility.

 

But, games can be "media shifted." Emulation is proof of that... :ahoy:

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But, games can be "media shifted." Emulation is proof of that... :ahoy:

Please read the entire message before trying to be clever. You seem to be trying to argue a point that I already mentioned.

 

Emulation is not media shifting. FPGA consoles let you play the original media, but none of these publishers are going to start producing their own carts again, because they needed Sega/Nintendo to make the carts. They can however produce their own CD games again, without Sony/Sega's blessing, if such a console existed to play them without the DRM. I'm sure it would be cheaper to produce MMCplus cards (not SD cards, but can be used in SD card equipment) without DRM, at much lower costs than SD cards, and just create a "dumb" adapter for use it with the FPGA console, or use the same card with a PC in a software emulator. If they wanted to. I don't expect it.

 

What we've so far been given by Sega, Disney, Capcom are half-hearted software emulators on Steam. There's been no Amiga/Atari/C64/AppleII packages because they all also require BIOS images to play them. It is largely the realm of SCUMMVM where some versions can be played against the re-implemented game engine which is not perfectly accurate by design.

 

So someone needs to re-engineer BIOS's for the SegaCD, PSX without decompiling the BIOS's to do it legally, and only then will someone be able to make a FPGA disc console that can be sold, and at that point the publishers could reach out to Analogue to make official versions that run on the console that could be downloaded to a SD card.

 

I no doubt there are people smart enough to build a third party BIOS for the SegaCD or PSX, but it's a chicken-and-egg problem since being able to test a third party firmware on real hardware is difficult, thus a FPGA that can run the official firmware or a third party firmware would have to exist, and it could be shipped with the third party firmware, and be enabled to run the original SCPH1001 firmware. That still requires the FPGA console to be able to emulate a disc interface, even if no disc drive is present.

 

So repeating the issue again, a FPGA console, needs to have both a system firmware capable of playing the game, and a "disc" drive that can play the discs (which only recordable drives were ever able to back in the day, via ASPI layer) without needing to reverse engineer their firmware as well. I'm sure there's a way to acquire suitable drives, but it would have to be something that the user can replace, hence USB (eg via USAP) rather than a 5.25" drive bay with a SATA connector, or just straight putting an eSATA connector on the console. Still that requires whoever makes the FPGA console to have to support any drive someone plugs into it. Too much of a hassle to include a drive, but legally dubious to not have it. Adds at least $35 to the console to include a drive.

 

Honestly, its a bridge that we can't cross until the chicken or egg are produced.

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... there will not be any legal mechanism to put a copyrighted BIOS on a FPGA re-implementation of the hardware until like 2060...

Just to understand: if I dump the BIOS my self from my no more CD working PSX (no download), I can't legally put on a reverse engineered FPGA system?

That sucks, in that case I'm not duplicating, I'm moving something I bought.

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So technically are there improvements to the Mega Sg versus the Super Nt?

 

Or are they pretty much the same but with different core and cart slots?

 

Is there a good chance in future that Super Nt and Mega Sg will get other cores and SD card loading?

I was toying with the idea of Collectorvision for coleco games but then ran across this FPGA and was enlightened when I read that Nt mini had cores that support Colecovision and Atari.

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Is there a good chance in future that Super Nt and Mega Sg will get other cores and SD card loading?

I was toying with the idea of Collectorvision for coleco games but then ran across this FPGA and was enlightened when I read that Nt mini had cores that support Colecovision and Atari.

 

Technically, all these can be "rooted" and somebody could figure out the FPGA pinouts and port whichever core they wanted to it.

Realistically it's a moot point considering there are other systems that are completely open (MiST, MiSTer, ZxUno, etc) where cores for Colecovision and many other systems are already supported.

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki

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Talking about MiSTer and Neo Geo, did you see that Furrtek (dev that is creating a Neo Geo open hardware FPGA core) is looking for MiSTer?

 

https://twitter.com/furrtek/status/1054140423604764674

 

https://twitter.com/SmokeMonsterTWI/status/1054449627607547904

 

Well, a lot of work still has to be done but it´s a good news indeed!

 

He had a good increase in his Patreon after that:

 

https://www.patreon.com/furrtek

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Further, the BIOS in these early systems (except maybe the NeoGeo, I haven’t delved much into that one personally) was more of a bootloader.

 

Sega CD BIOS is actually much more than just a bootloader. Among other things, it provides run-time services to software for disc access (TOC reading, play, seek, etc), CDDA volume control (fade-in/out) and backup RAM management (format, add, remove, etc) so it's actually extensively used by games while running. There is no BIOS replacement existing so far (contrary to PS1 I think) so it's probably not that simple to replace all these functions properly (i.e without breaking games), although high-level emulation (either with a software emulator or with a FPGA connected to an off-the-shell CD driveor SD card adapter) might be possible

 

 

At the end of the day, a Sega CD clone could be made fairly easily

 

I would not be so much optimistic and the fact no Sega CD hardware implementation in FPGA exist so far should again be an indication that it's not that as 'easy' as you think it is.

Sega CD hardware is actually quite complicated, you can have a look at available service manuals. Even discounting the various CD board chips (DSP, RF Amplifier, Mechanism controller, etc) used to control the CD drive (which could likely be simulated by an off-the-shell CD drive but would still need to be properly interfaced with the rest of 'emulated' Sega-CD hardware), there is an additional MC68000 CPU, many RAM chips, a PCM chip for extra stereo channels, configurable audio DACs, a CD-ROM data decoder (also connected to CD DSP) which is able to generate interrupts and handle DMA transfers, a custom 4-bit processor which handles CD commands from the BIOS and drives the CD board and last but not least a big custom ASIC that handles interfaces with Genesis side, access to Sega CD hardware from software, subcode processing, etc... but also has additional graphics processing capabilities (scaling & rotation).

 

Looking at existing Sega CD emulators could probably help a bit but they are not very accurate in regard to hardware timings (compared to Genesis emulation) and hardware reverse-engineering seems to be still quite in early days (for example, service manuals only surfaced last year I think), which would make developing an FPGA implementation quite a serious task in my opinion (much more than well-known and deeply studied 8-bit/16-bit systems)

 

And if your goal isn’t to play the original CDs, then you might go with a “CD Rom Emulator” backed by SD cards, to cut down on mechanical parts that will wear out. Hasn’t someone already done that? I could have sworn that mod exists. Maybe I’m thinking of a different console that got that mod.

 

No, there is no CD-ROM emulator (or ISO loader) released so far or even in the work for Sega-CD hardware yet, unfortunately.

Edited by philyso
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Just to understand: if I dump the BIOS my self from my no more CD working PSX (no download), I can't legally put on a reverse engineered FPGA system?

That sucks, in that case I'm not duplicating, I'm moving something I bought.

 

The only legal way to use the PSX BIOS is to desolder the chip from the PSX. Dumping it is still an unauthorized copy. For reasons specific to the US copyright law fair use doctrine, you can make one backup copy of any software for personal use, that's why you can dump it from your own equipment at all. The reality is that people just download it illegally from the internet which is not fair use, and that is exactly what will happen with a SegaCD or PSX FPGA system that doesn't also re-implement the BIOS itself.

 

That's why when people make offhand remarks about "just get it from the internet (wink)", they're not helping. That's the reason why releasing the FPGA consoles at all is fraught with risk if they enable piracy by being able to play files obtained from the internet instead of the physical media the games came on in the first place. Unlike game ROM's however, it's just a little more than trivial to make a raw disc image as long as you have a drive that can read the game disc, so in a sense, someone who rips their own discs could play such rips on a FPGA SegaCD or PSX via SD card or USB drive without having to download them off the internet. The original game devs could also just release their own disc images for use on such a FPGA system or on a software emulator... provided there is a legal BIOS that could be distributed. Hence it's a chicken and egg problem. Can't produce a sellable FPGA console without it, and can't produce a third party BIOS without official hardware that can accept such a BIOS.

 

If copyright law could change to not cover computer and game system/arcade BIOS's after they are no longer in production, a lot of this could be sidestepped.

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Sega CD BIOS is actually much more than just a bootloader. Among other things, it provides run-time services to software for disc access (TOC reading, play, seek, etc), CDDA volume control (fade-in/out) and backup RAM management (format, add, remove, etc) so it's actually extensively used by games while running. There is no BIOS replacement existing so far (contrary to PS1 I think) so it's probably not that simple to replace all these functions properly (i.e without breaking games), although high-level emulation (either with a software emulator or with a FPGA connected to an off-the-shell CD driveor SD card adapter) might be possible

 

 

 

I would not be so much optimistic and the fact no Sega CD hardware implementation in FPGA exist so far should again be an indication that it's not that as 'easy' as you think it is.

Sega CD hardware is actually quite complicated, you can have a look at available service manuals. Even discounting the various CD board chips (DSP, RF Amplifier, Mechanism controller, etc) used to control the CD drive (which could likely be simulated by an off-the-shell CD drive but would still need to be properly interfaced with the rest of 'emulated' Sega-CD hardware), there is an additional MC68000 CPU, many RAM chips, a PCM chip for extra stereo channels, configurable audio DACs, a CD-ROM data decoder (also connected to CD DSP) which is able to generate interrupts and handle DMA transfers, a custom 4-bit processor which handles CD commands from the BIOS and drives the CD board and last but not least a big custom ASIC that handles interfaces with Genesis side, access to Sega CD hardware from software, subcode processing, etc... but also has additional graphics processing capabilities (scaling & rotation).

 

Looking at existing Sega CD emulators could probably help a bit but they are not very accurate in regard to hardware timings (compared to Genesis emulation) and hardware reverse-engineering seems to be still quite in early days (for example, service manuals only surfaced last year I think), which would make developing an FPGA implementation quite a serious task in my opinion (much more than well-known and deeply studied 8-bit/16-bit systems)

 

 

No, there is no CD-ROM emulator (or ISO loader) released so far or even in the work for Sega-CD hardware yet, unfortunately.

 

 

Yeah, I was thinking of the PSX and Dreamcast drive emulators.

 

Ugh, I forgot just how much hardware was being exported to be available to the Genesis. It would be akin to creating an FPGA SA-1 setup, adding the audio/SRAM features, and bringing your own BIOS on top of that. I couldn’t find much detail online, and I’m a little busy to go do a dive on one of my Sega CD games to find out, but I’m a bit surprised that they don’t include drivers on disc like Sony would. Unless they were really just that strapped for memory then, which is possible.

 

That said, a lot of the drive control doesn’t need to be handled by the BIOS directly unless your goal is to replicate the hardware exactly. The main reason to control the drive directly is to cut the cost of the add on. But if your goal is to be able to use an off the shelf laptop drive of some kind, then a good chunk of this is handled for you in the drive firmware. The BIOS in that case would mostly be involved in passing along the requests to the drive firmware over SATA or the like. Since timing of disc seeks can’t be expected to be perfect, you can probably lean into that to make this work, and avoid writing what amounts to your own drive firmware into the BIOS you are writing. These days, you’d probably have to go this route anyhow, as custom drives without their own SATA-based controller firmware are getting rarer.

 

Your argument is sound in the in the sense that the amount of hardware here that the game has direct access to is daunting enough to be its own console worth of work. But I still don’t think the BIOS is the dealbreaker here. We still are talking about fairly simple electronics compared to today’s kit, and Connectix wasn’t exactly a big company when they reverse-engineered the PSX BIOS with a clean room implementation in under a year. The difference is that Connectix could pay someone to come in and do the dirty work to write the spec for the BIOS, and then have one of their own employees in the “clean room” implement it, on the assumption VGS would make them money. The OSS community doesn’t really have that carrot to dangle in front of people good at reverse engineering, per se. Analogue hasn’t had to deal with clean room implementations up to now either, which would be something they’d have to learn and get right, but there’s plenty of precedent to follow there.

 

But my whole argument at the end of the day was really that the BIOS is not the sword of Damocles that sinks a project like this, and I stand by that argument. I didn’t mean to insinuate that it was something you could slap together in a weekend or a couple months, but more that the BIOS doesn’t have to be an exact replica here to be useful. It just needs to be compatible.

 

I’d even say that even if someone managed to write their own Sega CD BIOS for original hardware, you are still stuck writing your own ATA driver, so you could use drives available today.

Edited by Kaide
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Technically, all these can be "rooted" and somebody could figure out the FPGA pinouts and port whichever core they wanted to it.

Realistically it's a moot point considering there are other systems that are completely open (MiST, MiSTer, ZxUno, etc) where cores for Colecovision and many other systems are already supported.

https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_MiSTer/wiki

Well, it does seem the "jail break" was provided by developer of cores for these system and the engineer himself. But are unofficially supported and not advertised on site.

 

I noticed Super Nt allows for SD card loads now. And I have strong feeling once all bugs worked out in their coming Sega system that they will unofficially release cores across both (Nt running Sega) and (Sega running SNES) but that is a guess. Though not sure if their Sega hardware will be more powerful than Nt or just same hardware power.

 

But yes always great to have other FPGA options like MiSTer that are open source and not closed projects.

Edited by jfcarbel
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I noticed Super Nt allows for SD card loads now. And I have strong feeling once all bugs worked out in their coming Sega system that they will unofficially release cores across both (Nt running Sega) and (Sega running SNES) but that is a guess. Though not sure if their Sega hardware will be more powerful than Nt or just same hardware power.

 

There's zero chance that they'll release the SNES core for the SG or vise versa because it wouldn't make any sense from a business perspective.

Edited by cacophony
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1 - Please read the entire message before trying to be clever. You seem to be trying to argue a point that I already mentioned.

 

2 - Emulation is not media shifting. FPGA consoles let you play the original media, but none of these publishers are going to start producing their own carts again, because they needed Sega/Nintendo to make the carts. They can however produce their own CD games again, without Sony/Sega's blessing, if such a console existed to play them without the DRM. I'm sure it would be cheaper to produce MMCplus cards (not SD cards, but can be used in SD card equipment) without DRM, at much lower costs than SD cards, and just create a "dumb" adapter for use it with the FPGA console, or use the same card with a PC in a software emulator. If they wanted to. I don't expect it.

 

[blah, blah...]

 

3 - So someone needs to re-engineer BIOS's for the SegaCD, PSX without decompiling the BIOS's to do it legally, and only then will someone be able to make a FPGA disc console that can be sold, and at that point the publishers could reach out to Analogue to make official versions that run on the console that could be downloaded to a SD card.

 

[blah, blah, blah...]

 

4 - Honestly, its a bridge that we can't cross until the chicken or egg are produced.

 

1 - I did. Forgive me for only quoting the relevant parts so people don't have to reread the entire diatribe.

 

2 - But indeed emulation is a form of media shifting, licensed or not. You would not expect to buy a film projector and vintage nitrite / cellulose film transfers to watch wizard of oz? No, you go to best buy and get it on dvd or bluray. Licensed emulations or recreations of iconic arcade games are the same concept. They are even selling three quarter scale galaga arcades at walmart now. Is experiencing the 4k digital remaster of Wizard of Oz on a 65" hdtv the same as your great grandma experiencing color film for the first time on the silver screen, in the height of the great depression? No. Neither does your son (hypothetical) experience the same thing when he opens that 3/4 scale Galaga machine you bought at Walmart Christmas morning (after you finish assembling it of course), compared to the first time you inserted that first quarter and started blasting space bugs. However I would argue it is close enough.

 

3 - The rest of your post isn't deserving of my time. CD bios copyright issues aside, it isn't feasible. A "provide your own cdrom drive" solution would open a Pandora's box worth of customer service complaints due to unforeseen compatibility issues with drive X playing media Y. I could also see SNK getting behind analogue and licensing the Neo Geo bios, but still too rich for most people to afford given the fpga complexity, cart slot, and media cost. And I doubt SNK would let provide a licensed copy of the BIOS then turn their backs while people jailbreak it, with the cart slot only being present to justify "legal use" with the official bios.

 

4 - Chicken and egg. We all evolved from "dinosaurs" so who the hell cares? :P

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Just stumbled on this, not sure when they were put up:

 

FPGA Console of DOOOOOM!

http://kevtris.org/Projects/console/video/page1.html

 

it almost looks like geocities.

 

From here:

http://kevtris.org/Projects/console/

it looks like they have been there for 13 years .... wow!

yeah I never had the skillz or time to improve my web page. Those pics are so old they are pics of a CRT. The first pics date from 2004 when the project started, to around 2006.

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yeah I never had the skillz or time to improve my web page. Those pics are so old they are pics of a CRT. The first pics date from 2004 when the project started, to around 2006.

 

 

This is very nice, because I clearly remember your page, CopyNES and all. I checked it from time to time watching your progress and I then just forgot you did that.

It brings me back to good ol' time, when we dumped carts as good as we could but in the end produced a lot of garbage, while waiting for the next version of Nesticle.

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So technically are there improvements to the Mega Sg versus the Super Nt?

 

Or are they pretty much the same but with different core and cart slots?

 

Is there a good chance in future that Super Nt and Mega Sg will get other cores and SD card loading?

I was toying with the idea of Collectorvision for coleco games but then ran across this FPGA and was enlightened when I read that Nt mini had cores that support Colecovision and Atari.

Yeah, its likely using all the same hardware as the Super NT.

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A bit off topic, but this thread probably has the highest percentage of people on the planet with retro 8bitdo experience.

 

From what I'm reading, and maybe finally understanding, 8bitdo makes both bluetooth 2.4ghz and non-bluetooth 2.4ghz ccontrollers, correct? They're not just using bluetooth and 2.4ghz interchangeably? I guess that's what I'm looking for confirmation on, since it's a bit confusing to me.

 

For backstory, my game room has an unconventional layout compared to most living rooms, that probably exaggerates the weaknesses of bluetooth, for example my consoles are behind me, making line of sight less likely. I'm guessing this is why I was unimpressed with the NES30 bluetooth that came with the NT Mini, while I am generally pleased with non-bluetooth wireless controllers. I'm wondering this because I preordered the m30, and wonder if I should give the sn30 a chance.

Edited by Reaperman
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Well, it does seem the "jail break" was provided by developer of cores for these system and the engineer himself. But are unofficially supported and not advertised on site.

It is a gentlemans agreement. Analogue knows a jailbreak will boost sales but they cannot support it. Kevtris works for Analogue now and cannot openly acknowledge it.

 

Some anonomous dude goes around spraying graffitti everywhere and deliberately shreds his own 1.4 million dollar painting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Is_in_the_Bin

 

Some "anonomous dude" goes around breaking his own fpga firmware.

 

These are indesputable facts. Now sit back and play...

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