FPGA Based Videogame System

[SegaSnatcher]

Looks like ditching the Aluminum case to keep the price low is paying off. Super NT is going to sell very well for an enthusiast retro console.

[Sho]

If Kevtris/Analogue really wants people to lose their minds, he should announce the Core Store tomorrow just before the embargo is lifted.

[SegaSnatcher]

LOL, Byuu blocked me from Twitter because I challenged him after he made a claim that his Higan emulator was more accurate than the Super NT.

Software emulation will always have its place, but the lag keeps it from being an optimal alternative to hardware based solutions. Dude, is mighty salty.

Edited February 6, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[ColecoGamer]

Did Kevtris finish his FPGA-based console system?

 

Edit: I lost track of this thread some time ago, and theres a lot to catch up on.

Edited February 6, 2018 by ColecoGamer

[cacophony]

LOL, Byuu blocked me from Twitter because I challenged him after he made a claim that his Higan emulator was more accurate than the Super NT.

 

Software emulation will always have its place, but the lag keeps it from being an optimal alternative to hardware based solutions. Dude, is mighty salty.

 

Yep, me too. The dude doesn't like to hear an opposing viewpoint.

[SegaSnatcher]

 

Yep, me too. The dude doesn't like to hear an opposing viewpoint.

He's taking things way too personal. Yeah, I get he put lots of work in his software emulators, but no reason to be so bitter that Analogue wants to distance their products from free software emulators.

[iGom]

Hi kevtris, as I live in the UK, most of my NES games are PAL carts and I'm just curious why Nt mini does not support a 5x vertical multiplier in PAL mode?

Edited February 6, 2018 by iGom

[F34R]

Shipping charges went UP lol. So, I ordered a second one, the Classic model this time, and the shipping is $7 more than it was for the last one. smh

[Great Hierophant]

Hi kevtris, as I live in the UK, most of my NES games are PAL carts and I'm just curious why Nt mini does not support a 5x vertical multiplier in PAL mode?

 

A lack of resources on the FPGA. While NTSC and PAL share the same number of active scanlines, the PAL consoles put out more scanlines in total (262 NTSC vs. 312 PAL) The Nt MIni multiplies all the output scanlines, then determines which ones to display. There is not enough memory to buffer those extra 50 scanlines in the PAL mode. On FPGAs, the drive for hardware accuracy can have its downsides.

[SegaSnatcher]

Shipping charges went UP lol. So, I ordered a second one, the Classic model this time, and the shipping is $7 more than it was for the last one. smh

Mandatory expedited shipping I assume, because I believe there was two options for shipping before with a $7 upcharge for faster delivery.

 

 

EDIT: Just checked the shipping for the new batch and it didn't go up for me compared to my 1st batch preorder.

Edited February 6, 2018 by SegaSnatcher

[cfillak]

Hi kevtris, as I live in the UK, most of my NES games are PAL carts and I'm just curious why Nt mini does not support a 5x vertical multiplier in PAL mode?

NTSC is 480i/240p. 240*5 = 1200. 1080p is 1920x1080, so 5x will cut off 24 lines on the top or bottom depending on where you place the image in the settings. PAL is 576i/288p. 288*5 = 1440. 5x would cut off 72 lines. I'm guessing Kevtris thought this setting for PAL would be pointless because it would cut off too much of the image.

[retro_fan]

Byuu the creator of the cycle-accurate SNES emulator higan said (source): "I think my point about FPGAs got drowned out by countering the marketing angle. I'd like to have a legitimate discussion on "what *is* an emulator?", so I think I'll try again."

 

Byuu said (source): "What is emulation? I'd like to clarify the difference between FPGA devices and software emulators, analyzing both of their strengths and weaknesses, and have a discussion over what it means to emulate a device. Article link: https://byuu.org/articles/what-is-emulation/ "

[F34R]

Mandatory expedited shipping I assume, because I believe there was two options for shipping before with a $7 upcharge for faster delivery.

 

 

EDIT: Just checked the shipping for the new batch and it didn't go up for me compared to my 1st batch preorder.

Kinda weird really.

[iGom]

 

A lack of resources on the FPGA. While NTSC and PAL share the same number of active scanlines, the PAL consoles put out more scanlines in total (262 NTSC vs. 312 PAL) The Nt MIni multiplies all the output scanlines, then determines which ones to display. There is not enough memory to buffer those extra 50 scanlines in the PAL mode. On FPGAs, the drive for hardware accuracy can have its downsides.

 

 

NTSC is 480i/240p. 240*5 = 1200. 1080p is 1920x1080, so 5x will cut off 24 lines on the top or bottom depending on where you place the image in the settings. PAL is 576i/288p. 288*5 = 1440. 5x would cut off 72 lines. I'm guessing Kevtris thought this setting for PAL would be pointless because it would cut off too much of the image.

 

 

Thanks a lot for both replies. I see now a pointlessness for 5x in PAL mode, even if it would not be resource problems.

,

Edited February 6, 2018 by iGom

[scott64]

Byuu the creator of the cycle-accurate SNES emulator higan said (source): "I think my point about FPGAs got drowned out by countering the marketing angle. I'd like to have a legitimate discussion on "what *is* an emulator?", so I think I'll try again."

 

Byuu said (source): "What is emulation? I'd like to clarify the difference between FPGA devices and software emulators, analyzing both of their strengths and weaknesses, and have a discussion over what it means to emulate a device. Article link: https://byuu.org/articles/what-is-emulation/ "

That's an interesting read. I tend to agree with most of what Byuu is putting down. At the end of the day think about what the word emulate actually means, not necessarily in a tech context but in general. The Super NT is not a Super Nintendo, but it is mimicking the behavior of one, therefore is it not an emulator? Hardware simulation is just a marketing term made up to sound superior to software emulation. Not saying I have any issue with Analogue's marketing approach. But in the distant future I believe Byuus open source software will more effectively "preserve video game history" than a closed source commercial product that will no longer be in production, unless perhaps the source to the core is one day made available and the community is able to continue development long after we're all gone. I personally, greatly appreciate all the work Byuu, Kevtris and Analogue have done over the years. I feel we should avoid turning this into a team emulation vs. team FPGA scenario and encourage development and growth in both areas.

 

[Andromeda Stardust]

LOL, Byuu blocked me from Twitter because I challenged him after he made a claim that his Higan emulator was more accurate than the Super NT.

 

Software emulation will always have its place, but the lag keeps it from being an optimal alternative to hardware based solutions. Dude, is mighty salty.

 

i really dont understand why hes swimming in a sea of butthurt. kevtris shared his findings with byuu and byuu did likewise. supernt is not a retron5, did not steal from him, nor competes directly with higan. kevtris performing work for hire doing something he loves to do, and was probably going to do at some point anyway, paid or not, is somehow considered extortion? or that people pay money for kevtris/analogue product while byuu give away his emu for free? salty indeed...

[cfillak]

That's an interesting read. I tend to agree with most of what Byuu is putting down. At the end of the day think about what the word emulate actually means, not necessarily in a tech context but in general. The Super NT is not a Super Nintendo, but it is mimicking the behavior of one, therefore is it not an emulator? Hardware simulation is just a marketing term made up to sound superior to software emulation. Not saying I have any issue with Analogue's marketing approach. But in the distant future I believe Byuus open source software will more effectively "preserve video game history" than a closed source commercial product that will no longer be in production, unless perhaps the source to the core is one day made available and the community is able to continue development long after we're all gone. I personally, greatly appreciate all the work Byuu, Kevtris and Analogue have done over the years. I feel we should avoid turning this into a team emulation vs. team FPGA scenario and encourage development and growth in both areas.

 

The way Kevin responded to Bob's question about the status of the Zimba 3000 in that RetroRGB interview makes me think he still definitely has control of his code. Kevin doesn't strike me as the type of guy that would take his code to the grave with him, so I'm hopeful that all this stuff will be opened up at some point even if its 10 or 20 years from now. But either way I strongly believe that the issue of preservation should be tackled from all angles, via emulation, FPGA cores, research, rom dumping etc.

[Shin_K]

Mandatory expedited shipping I assume, because I believe there was two options for shipping before with a $7 upcharge for faster delivery.

 

 

EDIT: Just checked the shipping for the new batch and it didn't go up for me compared to my 1st batch preorder.

went 2$ down for me.

 

Edit : as for "hardware simulation" being a marketing term coined up by Analogue, please...I remember taking FPGA 101 (VHDL) 15 years ago and hardware/low level simulation was already an existing terminolgy. (and I'm french)

Edited February 6, 2018 by Shin_K

[LewisD]

I was bored this afternoon, so I decided to open up my new black 8bitdo SNES controller and swap out the d-pad and buttons from a Super Famicom mini/classic controller. Ive found that the 8bitdo d-pad is slightly raised which affects the feeling of it. The swapped d-pad feels much better. The only issue is that I could not swap out the start/select buttons since the molds between the controllers are not a match, so the color of those buttons are darker than the d-pad...

 

[kevtris]

NTSC is 480i/240p. 240*5 = 1200. 1080p is 1920x1080, so 5x will cut off 24 lines on the top or bottom depending on where you place the image in the settings. PAL is 576i/288p. 288*5 = 1440. 5x would cut off 72 lines. I'm guessing Kevtris thought this setting for PAL would be pointless because it would cut off too much of the image.

This isn't true. the PAL and NTSC NES has the exact same output resolution. The reason is what GH said above though- I don't have enough blockrams on the FPGA to buffer enough scanlines to do 5x for PAL. The scanlines come in much faster than they can be displayed, because vblank on PAL is a lot longer (70 scanlines or so) vs. NTSC (20ish). The HDMI adjusts for 50Hz by making hblank super duper long, so vblank is about the same length on 50fps vs. 60fps.

 

PAL/NTSC scanline rate is very similar, as in total scanlines per second. There's just more of them per frame in PAL (and on NES, the "extras" are just blank lines, so this means PAL NES's should letterbox somewhat I believe on a CRT). HDMI compensated by slowing down the scanline rate per second for 50fps vs. 60fps, hence the rub. If they had simply increased vblank time it would have been a non-issue. but nooOOOooo they had to lengthen each scanline, instead :-)

[cfillak]

This isn't true. the PAL and NTSC NES has the exact same output resolution. The reason is what GH said above though- I don't have enough blockrams on the FPGA to buffer enough scanlines to do 5x for PAL. The scanlines come in much faster than they can be displayed, because vblank on PAL is a lot longer (70 scanlines or so) vs. NTSC (20ish). The HDMI adjusts for 50Hz by making hblank super duper long, so vblank is about the same length on 50fps vs. 60fps.

 

PAL/NTSC scanline rate is very similar, as in total scanlines per second. There's just more of them per frame in PAL (and on NES, the "extras" are just blank lines, so this means PAL NES's should letterbox somewhat I believe on a CRT). HDMI compensated by slowing down the scanline rate per second for 50fps vs. 60fps, hence the rub. If they had simply increased vblank time it would have been a non-issue. but nooOOOooo they had to lengthen each scanline, instead :-)

Well I learned something new today! I could have sworn the menu or something looked higher resolution when I was testing PAL NES games on my NT Mini with my BVM.

 

I think I got my DVD/video standards enthusiast wires crossed with my video game ones. I know some people tout PAL video as partially being better due to its higher resolution than NTSC, which I suppose would matter when scanning from a film source with unlimited resolution, but I never liked hearing the audio slightly sped up from 24 fps to 25 (for film content at least). It makes sense why game developers wouldn't create two different game versions with different resolutions, especially in the early days.

Edited February 6, 2018 by cfillak

[cfillak]

So do the 480p, 720p, 1080p4x modes for PAL just chop off the "letterbox" blank scanlines? Does the 1080p5x mode work on PAL games played in NTSC mode?

[kevtris]

So do the 480p, 720p, 1080p4x modes for PAL just chop off the "letterbox" blank scanlines? Does the 1080p5x mode work on PAL games played in NTSC mode?

The PAL modes assume the same resolution as NTSC to start, 256*240 pixels or so. The black bars / vblank is not sampled or upscaled, only the actual active display area. Yes, PAL games will work in 5x on NTSC mode, but they will run 20% faster (and might crash / look funny if they assume they have 70 lines of vblank to work with, but are only given 21). If you want to confuse your drunk friends, slip them PAL super mario bros running on NTSC. It's hard to tell at first what's wrong. Mario feels like he's got ballbearings in his feet. It makes completing jumps and stuff a bit trickier.

[Laner]

That's an interesting read. I tend to agree with most of what Byuu is putting down. At the end of the day think about what the word emulate actually means, not necessarily in a tech context but in general. The Super NT is not a Super Nintendo, but it is mimicking the behavior of one, therefore is it not an emulator? Hardware simulation is just a marketing term made up to sound superior to software emulation.

 

The Polygon article linked a few pages back made a thought-provoking distinction between hardware and software emulation: "An FPGA works on a circuit level — it runs in parallel, like a true PCB. It works by replicating the cause, not the effect.”

[scott64]

 

The Polygon article linked a few pages back made a thought-provoking distinction between hardware and software emulation: "An FPGA works on a circuit level — it runs in parallel, like a true PCB. It works by replicating the cause, not the effect.”

Provided a PC is fast enough to complete all the necessary calculations between each cycle of the machine being emulated, it makes no difference whether the operations were completed in parallel or one by one. Maybe I'm out to lunch on this one, but I see no reason why an emulator couldn't have identical accuracy as an FPGA provided it was designed with no compromises or speed hacks. I recognize that the computing power required for a bit perfect SNES emulator would be enormous, but we've all seen how fast tech changes.