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FPGA Based Videogame System

Interest in an FPGA Videogame System  

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I only mention the Pocket because by the time it comes out, it will be far more than a year or so removed from their last console. Basically just saying the yearly cadence isn't necessarily what we should expect going forward, so after they release the Pocket (presumably sometime this year) they'll have plenty of time to work on a PS1, N64, whatever. Now if they plan on making a PS1, I could see some utility to releasing a PCE that supports CD games so they can kinda cut their teeth at building something like that in anticipation for a much more in demand PS1 coming after.

Edited by jamon1567
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With the Coronavirus, schedules are all changed, so it's not surprised release dates are on hold. Situation isn't under control yet.

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I only mention the Pocket because by the time it comes out, it will be far more than a year or so removed from their last console. Basically just saying the yearly cadence isn't necessarily what we should expect going forward, so after they release the Pocket (presumably sometime this year) they'll have plenty of time to work on a PS1, N64, whatever. Now if they plan on making a PS1, I could see some utility to releasing a PCE that supports CD games so they can kinda cut their teeth at building something like that in anticipation for a much more in demand PS1 coming after.


The real issue for N64 is that an FPGA powerful enough isn't expected to exist for many years and it have to exist before they can start developing on it. Even the one presumably powerful enough for PSX is too expensive for a commercial product.

DE10 Nano boards from MiSTer are subsidized dev boards which would not be the case for a commercial product from Analogue. It literally cost more for the FPGA than for the whole DE10 Nano dev board due to subsidies. Their goal is to get deva to make something with it to justify buying the chips for a low-volume high-cost commercial product, and FPGA console prices don't support the high cost of the unsubsidized chips. We're kind of abusing their intention by encouraging end users to buy/use the DE10 Nano dev board for their game machines even though they may have no interest in developing for it. ;)

I do wonder what may be possibly with that FPGA in a couple years if it can be combined with a other FPGA. Maybe it will be cheap enough to put into a base console and augment with a second FPGA inside an expansion module, like, PSX in the base station then Saturn and/or N64 with the modules that augmented the main unit with another FPGA. They could have literally twice the logic units or a completely different set of hardware that offloads a lot of the complexity.

Like you, I do hope to see those but it's doubtful N64 could happen anytime soon without a revolutionary new FPGA and cleanroom engineering of the leaked HDL. In the shorter term, PC Engine is more feasible than PSX/Saturn (MUCH less complex and does not require an inordinately expensive FPGA).

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I don't mind to use a N64 core on a MiSTer from the leaked N64 schematics and to have to download the core from illegal places.

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I don't mind to use a N64 core on a MiSTer from the leaked N64 schematics and to have to download the core from illegal places.

MiSTer likely doesn't have the LEs to do something of that complexity. It's already the value king of the higher complexity FPGAs that consumers can afford because we are abusing dev hardware subsidies. Something that can legitimately do N64 is going to cost far more than any end user is willing to pay. 

 

 

 

Another thought:

Maybe it could lead to cheap non-FPGA hardware clones but that require making enough dedicated chips for economies of scale to kick in. The Verilog/HDL would need to be developed and tested on one of those "arm and a leg" FPGAs that cost thousands before committing to a fixed chip production run. After that, well don't expect any of the benefits of an FPGA's reconfigurability (no fixes/updates to the core, no other console cores, few features introduced with firmware, etc).

 

 

 

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Anyway, I don't care much about the N64. We now have the schematics leaked and a backup of them, so the console is preserved.

I want PC Engine. That is the console I really care about for FPGA and I want it on an Analogue product because the MiSTer crowd is a bunch of asses. You just can't have a polite debate with them.

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7 hours ago, Slipard said:

With the Coronavirus, schedules are all changed, so it's not surprised release dates are on hold. Situation isn't under control yet.

It seemed like it was gonna be a longer wait this time anyway, but they never really gave a firm date, so I dunno.

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4 hours ago, CZroe said:

The real issue for N64 is that an FPGA powerful enough isn't expected to exist for many years and it have to exist before they can start developing on it. Even the one presumably powerful enough for PSX is too expensive for a commercial product.

DE10 Nano boards from MiSTer are subsidized dev boards which would not be the case for a commercial product from Analogue. It literally cost more for the FPGA than for the whole DE10 Nano dev board due to subsidies. Their goal is to get deva to make something with it to justify buying the chips for a low-volume high-cost commercial product, and FPGA console prices don't support the high cost of the unsubsidized chips. We're kind of abusing their intention by encouraging end users to buy/use the DE10 Nano dev board for their game machines even though they may have no interest in developing for it. ;)

I do wonder what may be possibly with that FPGA in a couple years if it can be combined with a other FPGA. Maybe it will be cheap enough to put into a base console and augment with a second FPGA inside an expansion module, like, PSX in the base station then Saturn and/or N64 with the modules that augmented the main unit with another FPGA. They could have literally twice the logic units or a completely different set of hardware that offloads a lot of the complexity.

Like you, I do hope to see those but it's doubtful N64 could happen anytime soon without a revolutionary new FPGA and cleanroom engineering of the leaked HDL. In the shorter term, PC Engine is more feasible than PSX/Saturn (MUCH less complex and does not require an inordinately expensive FPGA).

 

The only thing I'll say is that Analogue has been pretty ambitious with all of their projects, with the Pocket being by far the most. I don't think they're gonna release the Pocket and then (in a sense) go backwards by creating something like a PCE or NeoGeo. I think it's full steam ahead with something like a PS1 or N64, but I'm just speculating like everyone else.

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The only thing I'll say is that Analogue has been pretty ambitious with all of their projects, with the Pocket being by far the most. I don't think they're gonna release the Pocket and then (in a sense) go backwards by creating something like a PCE or NeoGeo. I think it's full steam ahead with something like a PS1 or N64, but I'm just speculating like everyone else.
Yes, PCE would be a step back as a stand-alone console but not as one part of a multi-platform disc-based console or as part of the Pocket. Also, I don't think Neo Geo would be a step back from the Pocket in any way. It may not have mainstream appeal but even the Pocket is said to be limited.

Neo Geo CD is a good excuse to make a Neo Geo FPGA without an expensive cartridge slot and without having to choose MVS or AES. The cartridge games could be unofficially supported with a jailbreak. Perhaps they could sell official cartridge adapters though the pin counts could be an issue if they can't be multiplexed (use up a lot of the I/O on an FPGA for the slots alone). Biggest issue would be the BIOS but that has been tackled by Polymega and there have been other open BIOS projects in the past.

Also, SNK worked with Tommo on the Neo Geo X and then failed to do much better with their own attempt, so it seems they have a history of working with partners and may be open to working with Analogue to sell licensed games digitally or on cards (solves the I/O problem). That would also solve the BIOS problem. I may be dreaming but it's certainly possible.

Back to PC Engine, adding CD-ROM²/Turbo-CD, Super CD-ROM²/Duo CD, and Arcade CD-ROM² support to a machine made to run Neo Geo CD would definitely broaden the appeal. If PlayStation isn't in the cards, maybe it could happen. A HuCard slot solves the BIOS issue.

It just seems like PC Engine support would be a good fit for a hypothetical Neo Geo CD+ console and the Analogue Pocket though obviously they wouldn't do both.

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1 hour ago, jamon1567 said:

The only thing I'll say is that Analogue has been pretty ambitious with all of their projects, with the Pocket being by far the most. I don't think they're gonna release the Pocket and then (in a sense) go backwards by creating something like a PCE or NeoGeo. I think it's full steam ahead with something like a PS1 or N64, but I'm just speculating like everyone else.

Yeah, if Analogue and Kevtris keep going after the Pocket, they'll probably do more FPGA consoles, although picking a target console to do in FPGA format is presumably getting harder. TurboGrafx and Neo Geo are pretty niche systems, and proper mini-style machines have already been released for both, with large groups of games built-in. The PS1 would be a no-brainer, except that Sony may try to fight it (BIOS, etc.) and besides, how hard is it to source reliable CD/DVD readers these days that can read PS1 discs? The N64 could also cause Analogue some legal headaches, although with the Nintendo FPGA systems they've already done, I'd say it's less likely. So the N64 seems like the next logical step, from my point of view.

 

However, and I've mentioned this before, if I was the CEO of Analogue, I would shoot for the next level, namely a cartridge-based arcade-at-home system.

 

When I was a kid, I knew that home conversions of arcade games were "naturally" inferior to their actual arcade counterparts, because the home hardware itself was technically inferior for affordability reasons. Also, most arcade games had pretty custom architectures under the hood, especially the early cabinets that were made before Jamma became a thing. But the dream I had as a kid was to have the ultimate home console that could play the actual arcade games from cartridges. I was too young back then to understand how technically difficult this proposition was, although SNK implemented this idea with the Neo Geo, but it was too expensive for many people, and the selection of games was as proprietary as it was limited.

 

However, with FPGAs, we're now reached a point where this "ultimate home console" is actually totally feasible. Just imagine a game cartridge that contains both the full original ROM set of an arcade game, together with the FPGA core needed to play this arcade game. Plug this cartridge into the console, let the FPGA core install itself automatically, press the little "insert coin" button on the console (or the controller) and play the actual arcade game on your modern TV via HDMI!

 

Of course, this can already be done in a variety of ways on existing modern consoles, and also on some portable options, where you can download and play faithfully-emulated arcade games. I'm sure those options are fine for most people, but all those options fall short of what I really want: I want to take that darn "ultimate" cartridge in my hand, slam it in the console's cartridge port, turn the machine on and play the exact same arcade game I used to marvel at as a kid, in the comfort of my own home. I want to collect all those arcade game cartridges, put them up on a shelf and brag "Yeah, y'know all those games that I could never own because they were only found in arcades? Look at them now sitting on my bedroom shelves! The Ultimate Kollexion! The power, dude! THE POWER!!! YEAH!!!"

 

For Analogue, it would be the next level because they wouldn't just release a new FPGA console, they would also have to design a proprietary cartridge format and license the arcade games from their legal owners. Also, if they want to speed up the release of arcade game carts, they'd have to outsource the development of the FPGA cores. So it would be a commercial endeavor of a much larger scope. But on the other hand, they wouldn't have to limit themselves to Namco and the other usual suspects, they could work to secure the rights to more obscure arcade titles like Venture, Pengo, Kangaroo, and many, many others that we hardly ever get to see released in emulated arcade packs on modern devices.

 

I'm fairly certain that I'm not alone in dreaming of a true arcade-on-cartridge experience on a home console. It seems clear to me that there is a still-untapped market here, and such an arcade-centric console could be easily nourished by scoring the rights to many obscure arcade games, and once the console registers a sufficient number of sales, then we'd start seeing some companies like Namco and Konami getting an actual interest in seeing their arcade catalog released on cartridge for this system. Gotta love that idea...  :)

 

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Pixelboy said:

Also, if they want to speed up the release of arcade game carts, they'd have to outsource the development of the FPGA cores. So it would be a commercial endeavor of a much larger scope.

It's an interesting concept, but this is basically what I was thinking the whole time while I was reading your comment. If it's just Kev, this could never happen. And even if they did outsource the development, I wouldn't be expecting an influx of titles initially since engineering a core for each would take time. I don't know that I would want to invest a not insignificant amount of money in an experiment like this. It could easily go south shortly after release and you'll be stuck with a couple games and that will be that. I'd rather just have a (jailbroken) console with the entire library already at my fingertips.

 

If this is something you really want though then you need a MiSTer. You won't have the satisfaction of owning the game, but you get everything else.

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24 minutes ago, CZroe said:

Yes, PCE would be a step back as a stand-alone console but not as one part of a multi-platform disc-based console or as part of the Pocket. Also, I don't think Neo Geo would be a step back from the Pocket in any way. It may not have mainstream appeal but even the Pocket is said to be limited.

Yes, if they made a multi-platform disc system it would be a much more enticing proposition, but what I meant by a step back is that they did what they wanted with the 8 bit stuff (Nt Mini and all the additional cores), moved on and tackled the two most popular systems of the 16 bit generation and now are currently building the one handheld to rule them all, which incidentally has moved onto the 32 bit generation. I don't think they're going to go backwards to revisit the 16 bit generation for a couple very niche systems. Kev has said before that PS1 is doable, so that is what I expect. If an N64 is possible, that is also a very strong candidate, but I don't think they could pass up the PS1, and since it's technically more feasible, I think that gets done first.

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Yes, if they made a multi-platform disc system it would be a much more enticing proposition, but what I meant by a step back is that they did what they wanted with the 8 bit stuff (Nt Mini and all the additional cores), moved on and tackled the two most popular systems of the 16 bit generation and now are currently building the one handheld to rule them all, which incidentally has moved onto the 32 bit generation. I don't think they're going to go backwards to revisit the 16 bit generation for a couple very niche systems. Kev has said before that PS1 is doable, so that is what I expect. If an N64 is possible, that is also a very strong candidate, but I don't think they could pass up the PS1, and since it's technically more feasible, I think that gets done first.
Man, a PSone, Neo Geo CD, PC Engine CD-ROM² console would be a killer follow-up to the Pocket and would come full-circle back to Neo Geo (where they started with consilized MVS). :)
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That reminds me I must buy a MVS slot before they all get consolized. I will do some search tonight.

Also, a SuperGraphx too, with Terraonion add-on and then, fuck the Analogue's PC Engine.

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That reminds me I must buy a MVS slot before they all get consolized. I will do some search tonight.

Also, a SuperGraphx too, with Terraonion add-on and then, fuck the Analogue's PC Engine.
LOL! Well, I got all that functionality AND direct-digital DVI/HDMI with my SuperGrafx + UperGrafx UGX-02 yet I still want to see it in the Pocket merely because I can't get all that in my TurboExpress. :)

I have an MVS MV-1 and MV-1FZ but I'm also tempted to grab a MV-1C for the same reason. Unfortunately, the only digital video mod I've seen, NeoVGA, only has analog output options and isn't produced anymore. :(

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I don't give a shit about that. I want a MVS for a CRT candy cab.

The Neo-Geo core of the MiSTer will do about for HDMI (although, the MiSTer has still some lag issues to be addressed, I think remember) if needed.

 

 

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14 hours ago, jamon1567 said:

I only mention the Pocket because by the time it comes out, it will be far more than a year or so removed from their last console. Basically just saying the yearly cadence isn't necessarily what we should expect going forward, so after they release the Pocket (presumably sometime this year) they'll have plenty of time to work on a PS1, N64, whatever. Now if they plan on making a PS1, I could see some utility to releasing a PCE that supports CD games so they can kinda cut their teeth at building something like that in anticipation for a much more in demand PS1 coming after.

Would many people buy an FPGA based PS1? It's one of my personal favorite consoles, but I wouldn't spend $200-400 on an FPGA clone of one when the original has no issues. I bought an HD Retrovision component cable and run it through a RetroTink. You could also buy a cheap PS2 or PS3 and run PS1 on them.

 

I think a Neo•Geo FPGA console would be in higher demand. The Neo is personal for Chris (Taber) as it's directly tied to Analogue's success.

You also have to remember that many Neo•Geo fans are a pretty diehard bunch. It may be considered a niche system, but that's mainly due to it's prohibitive costs. I know quite a few Neo enthusiasts who have ultimate Neo setups who would buy one just to get a minimal upgrade in A/V quality. I think an Analogue Neo•Geo with an AES slot, (+MVS & NGPC adapters), along with the option to play NGCDs from any USB optical drive (which currently sell for around $20) would be worthy. An "All in one Neo•Geo console" (except for maybe the Hyper Neo•Geo 64), one that could also play all of those games from an SDcard (via JB) could be worthy to many. Anyway, niche is sort of their thing. They are looking to sell millions of these systems.. Just thousands. 

 

That being said I think it's time for Analogue/Kevtris to consider working on releasing the Zimba-3000. The Pocket is a step in the right direction, but with no cart/joystick adapters for the mainstream systems (NES/SNES/SMS/GEN/Atari 2600/7800/ColecoVision, etc) it's not what I'm looking for. 

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7 hours ago, CZroe said:

Man, a PSone, Neo Geo CD, PC Engine CD-ROM² console would be a killer follow-up to the Pocket and would come full-circle back to Neo Geo (where they started with consilized MVS). :)

Yea, if they do the PS1 something like that would be my hope.

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4 hours ago, spoonman said:

Would many people buy an FPGA based PS1? It's one of my personal favorite consoles, but I wouldn't spend $200-400 on an FPGA clone of one when the original has no issues. I bought an HD Retrovision component cable and run it through a RetroTink. You could also buy a cheap PS2 or PS3 and run PS1 on them.

 

I think a Neo•Geo FPGA console would be in higher demand. The Neo is personal for Chris (Taber) as it's directly tied to Analogue's success.

You also have to remember that many Neo•Geo fans are a pretty diehard bunch. It may be considered a niche system, but that's mainly due to it's prohibitive costs. I know quite a few Neo enthusiasts who have ultimate Neo setups who would buy one just to get a minimal upgrade in A/V quality. I think an Analogue Neo•Geo with an AES slot, (+MVS & NGPC adapters), along with the option to play NGCDs from any USB optical drive (which currently sell for around $20) would be worthy. An "All in one Neo•Geo console" (except for maybe the Hyper Neo•Geo 64), one that could also play all of those games from an SDcard (via JB) could be worthy to many. Anyway, niche is sort of their thing. They are looking to sell millions of these systems.. Just thousands. 

 

That being said I think it's time for Analogue/Kevtris to consider working on releasing the Zimba-3000. The Pocket is a step in the right direction, but with no cart/joystick adapters for the mainstream systems (NES/SNES/SMS/GEN/Atari 2600/7800/ColecoVision, etc) it's not what I'm looking for. 

I could see the diehard NeoGeo crowd buying one simply because the actual hardware is aging and hard to replace. And while what you said is true about them starting with NeoGeo, I'm not sure if they want to revisit it. I mean, people have been begging for a cheaper Nt Mini in the mold of the Super Nt and Mega Sg, but they won't budge on that. Taber basically said they did the NES and they're done with it, and similarly he may be done with NeoGeo. I think the coming run of the Nt Mini was unplanned and done because the Pocket hit delays for whatever reason.

 

And yes, people would buy a PS1. You could make the same argument about using an HD Retrovision cable and a Tink or OSSC or whatever kinda setup you want with any other system as well. For the same reasons people buy their other products, they would buy a PS1. 

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A small number of PS1 games don't work properly on the PS2, and I imagine that there are some that don't work on the PS3. I don't think I have any aside from Metal Gear Solid, which has problems on the PS2, but I think only if you turn on the fast read speed thing. For the most part, unless Analogue does something special for a PS1 FPGA system like including another system, there is little point in buying it if you have a PS2 or especially a PS3 since that has HDMI. PS3 uses a software emulator to play PS1 games, but I've never had a problem with it. Almost all of my PS1 games got left behind in the USA, so I don't have many to test. I know that playing PS1 games on the PS3 using a real disc instead of using a PSN download version can sometimes result in better visuals than the download version, but it depends on the game.

 

As for Saturn and SuperGrafx, neither of those are going to happen, but that does not stop me from wanting them. I mentioned it before, but Taber once said that he'd like to do WonderSwan. Maybe Pocket will have WonderSwan support, as I'm interested in trying that, but I doubt it.

Edited by Steven Pendleton

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4 minutes ago, Steven Pendleton said:

A small number of PS1 games don't work properly on the PS2, and I imagine that there are some that don't work on the PS3. I don't think I have any aside from Metal Gear Solid, which has problems on the PS2, but I think only if you turn on the fast read speed thing. For the most part, unless Analogue does something special for a PS1 FPGA system like including another system, there is little point in buying it if you have a PS2 or especially a PS3 since that has HDMI. PS3 uses a software emulator to play PS1 games, but I've never had a problem with it. Almost all of my PS1 games got left behind in the USA, so I don't have many to test. I know that playing PS1 games on the PS3 using a real disc instead of using a PSN download version can sometimes improve the visuals, but it depends on the game.

 

As for Saturn and SuperGrafx, neither of those are going to happen, but that does not stop me from wanting them. I mentioned it before, but Taber once said that he'd like to do WonderSwan. Maybe Pocket will have WonderSwan support, as I'm interested in trying that, but I doubt it.

For what it's worth, I say PS1 is most likely mainly because it's actually possible today, at least from what I've seen. If it was possible to do an N64, I think they'd go that route, but that seems a little far off right now. It'll probably be neither though lol.

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1 minute ago, jamon1567 said:

For what it's worth, I say PS1 is most likely mainly because it's actually possible today, at least from what I've seen. If it was possible to do an N64, I think they'd go that route, but that seems a little far off right now. It'll probably be neither though lol.

Well, someone is working on a PS1 core for the MiSTer, so it's possible to build it without an expensive FPGA. FPGA Saturn probably is not going to happen for some time, but as the Saturn frequently uses a bunch of different resolutions, that's the one that I'd most like to see since I wouldn't have to deal with finding game resolutions for the OSSC. For PS1 I can just put the disc in my PS3 and it works. I'm buying both a (Skeleton) Saturn and a Dreamcast very soon, so I'll see exactly what the thing with the Saturn's resolutions is. Too bad the OSSC doesn't seem to have a setting for a correct 4:3 aspect ratio, and my monitor only can resize certain things to 4:3, which is one of the reasons that I'm interested in FPGA Saturn/SuperGrafx.

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Well, someone is working on a PS1 core for the MiSTer, so it's possible to build it without an expensive FPGA. FPGA Saturn probably is not going to happen for some time, but as the Saturn frequently uses a bunch of different resolutions, that's the one that I'd most like to see since I wouldn't have to deal with finding game resolutions for the OSSC. For PS1 I can just put the disc in my PS3 and it works. I'm buying both a (Skeleton) Saturn and a Dreamcast very soon, so I'll see exactly what the thing with the Saturn's resolutions is. Too bad the OSSC doesn't seem to have a setting for a correct 4:3 aspect ratio, and my monitor only can resize certain things to 4:3, which is one of the reasons that I'm interested in FPGA Saturn/SuperGrafx.

The FPGA used in MiSTer is an expensive FPGA. It doesn't seem like it only because MiSTer uses/abuses subsidized dev boards that were intended to be used for developing products that incorporate the same FPGA at full-price. An Analogue product using it to run PlayStation would need that expensive FPGA which costs significantly more than anything they've used in their precious consoles. It may not be thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars like some of those FPGAs intended for GPU development and the like but it would definitely raise the price of the console. :(

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1 hour ago, CZroe said:


The FPGA used in MiSTer is an expensive FPGA. It doesn't seem like it only because MiSTer uses/abuses subsidized dev boards that were intended to be used for developing products that incorporate the same FPGA at full-price. An Analogue product using it to run PlayStation would need that expensive FPGA which costs significantly more than anything they've used in their precious consoles. It may not be thousands of dollars or tens of thousands of dollars like some of those FPGAs intended for GPU development and the like but it would definitely raise the price of the console. :(

I forgot about the subsidized thing. I should probably see about getting my MiSTer to actually function properly because it currently doesn't. I still have not gotten around to getting a better SD card for it than the one that it came with. Not sure if that is the problem with it, but right now I hate the MiSTer since it's mostly unusable.

 

How much does Analogue pay for the FPGAs used in their other systems? After 15~20 seconds of internet searching, I haven't seen any prices.

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