Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Here is a CX22 version with doubled speed. Please give it a try.

 

BTW: For all MCTB versions, game variations 1,3,5... have slower speed (75%) than 2,4,6...(100%). Please test both and compare with both variations in CX80 or Amiga mouse ROMs.

Missile Command (CX-22, double speed) (NTSC).bin

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a CX22 version with doubled speed. Please give it a try.

 

BTW: For all MCTB versions, game variations 1,3,5... have slower speed (75%) than 2,4,6...(100%). Please test both and compare with both variations in CX80 or Amiga mouse ROMs.

I like the way this version plays better than your original version.

I like the 75% speed better because it feels more like I'm in control. The 100% version seems jittery or twitchy somewhoe. My perception when playing is that the pointer twitches vertically at the point where I'm trying to hit a specific spot.

 

I'm not really much of a Missile Command guy. I'd advise weighing my feedback lightly when compared to others who are true, experienced fans of the game.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the only way to decide is to have more people try the various versions and posting their feedback, including the exact model of trackball/mouse used. Anyway, after playing for a while you probably get accostumed to the sensitivity of the controller you are using, so adjusting the speed might not be necessary after all...

 

To complicate things, what said in my previous post applies to trackballs with the same mechanic characteristics (ball-roller diameter ratio and number of holes in the encoder wheel). For example, a CX80 acting as a ST mouse will have double the speed compared to a CX80 acting as a CX22, because only the wiring differs between the two. But what about third-party ST/Amiga trackballs and mice? Some test would be needed to measure sensivity of the most common models.

Another issue is it seems most people are using CX-22's or CX-80's wired as CX-22's.

 

 

It seems better to use the CX-22 as top speed, and cut the ST-Mouse speed in half.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems better to use the CX-22 as top speed, and cut the ST-Mouse speed in half.

Is that the same thing as saying all versions would play at the same speed as the original Missile Command TB?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is that the same thing as saying all versions would play at the same speed as the original Missile Command TB?

I was thinking of a problem with straight up doubling the speed. If you double the speed you are always move in even amounts (0,2,4,6,8, etc...) so you lose that fine resolution. This might show up only if moving the trackball slowly, if at all. Halving the faster speed you can still have 1 pixel motion (0,1,2,3,4,5 etc...)

 

 

However if you are saying Missile Command felt slow to begin with, then maybe doubling the speed is better. I guess people are also moving the TB fast rather than slow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is that the same thing as saying all versions would play at the same speed as the original Missile Command TB?

Nope, CX80 and Amiga mouse would be half of that speed then.

 

At least with my hardware (ST mouse and Alfa Data CX80/Amiga trackball), that seems too slow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nope, CX80 and Amiga mouse would be half of that speed then.

 

At least with my hardware (ST mouse and Alfa Data CX80/Amiga trackball), that seems too slow.

I think Big-O is asking if all trak-ball versions would then be at the same speed... which they would be either by doubling the speed of the CX-22 version or halving the speed of the other versions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I confirm that the double-speed cx22 rom is a bit jerky when moving at low speed, making it more difficult to place the cursor exactly where you want. The cx80/st mouse one is very smooth and precise instead. The jerky response is present in the normal speed cx22 version too, but much less noticeable there.

I did some tests and found that the direction bit in cx22 mode sometimes changes state when you stop the movement and I wonder if that could be the cause of the jerky behaviour. Note that I'm using a modified msx trackball, so confirmation from people using stock hardware is necessary.

As for the question if is it better to double the cx22 rom speed or cut in half the st mouse/cx80 one I think it depends on the game.
For missile command, I like the faster speed of the current cx80 version, but I find the cx22 (normal speed) playable as well, so in this case I think you could make the cx80 version slower.

In Colony 7, on the other hand, I find the cx22 version movement too slow so I think it would be better to make it like the cx80 version, and a way to smooth the cx22 movement in software is needed in that case (best way would be to double the polling rate, but I know that it might not be possible).

 

P.S. I'm still of the idea that a better naming convention than cx22/cx80 should be used for the roms....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I confirm that the double-speed cx22 rom is a bit jerky when moving at low speed, making it more difficult to place the cursor exactly where you want. The cx80/st mouse one is very smooth and precise instead. The jerky response is present in the normal speed cx22 version too, but much less noticeable there.

 

I did some tests and found that the direction bit in cx22 mode sometimes changes state when you stop the movement and I wonder if that could be the cause of the jerky behaviour. Note that I'm using a modified msx trackball, so confirmation from people using stock hardware is necessary.

Interesting. But at least for MC, I don't see how this would cause jerky movement. Here the code doesn't accumulate direction and distance over one frame, but instead immediately applies any changes. So when you stop moving, the direction doesn't matter, since nothing is changed.

 

Maybe something is wrong with my code. Unfortunately it is quite hard to debug TB input. But it looks OK.

 

We should wait for someone with original hardware to respond.

 

As for the question if is it better to double the cx22 rom speed or cut in half the st mouse/cx80 one I think it depends on the game.

For missile command, I like the faster speed of the current cx80 version, but I find the cx22 (normal speed) playable as well, so in this case I think you could make the cx80 version slower.

That would be the cursor speed of variation 17 (kid mode). IMO that's pretty slow. I guess its a pretty subjective matter.

 

But I want all three types to have (about) the same responsiveness.

 

In Colony 7, on the other hand, I find the cx22 version movement too slow so I think it would be better to make it like the cx80 version, and a way to smooth the cx22 movement in software is needed in that case (best way would be to double the polling rate, but I know that it might not be possible).

Not possible, but that wouldn't change the speed at all anyway.

 

P.S. I'm still of the idea that a better naming convention than cx22/cx80 should be used for the roms....

I am calling it CX22, CX80 and Amiga mouse encoding. icon_smile.gif

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am calling it CX22, CX80 and Amiga mouse encoding. icon_smile.gif

I know that, but most people don't, and they just try (or buy) the version matching their hardware model, which results in most with a CX80 trackball ending with the wrong version of the game.

 

Both the cx22 and the cx80 hardware natively output the same encoding (the one we call "cx-22") so actually there's not a separate "cx-80" one. The cx-80s outputting the ST-mouse encoding are a small minority, resulting from an hack which was performed either at the factory for the later producted units or by users (many articles on how to mod the atari cx22 and cx80 trackballs for atari ST or Amiga computers were published on magazines or BBS in the late 80s/ early 90s).

 

The fact that there are early produced cx22 trackball without "real" trackball mode just adds more confusion, and that's why IMO it would be better not to use the hardware model number at all to identify the roms/encoding type.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get you. Yet the mislabelling is ongoing for many, many years. If we would change the names now, I am afraid even more people will be confused.

 

The plan is, to offer versatile ROMs, which detect (and display) the controller type and then start the correct ROM for the user's controller.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jerkiness could be caused from the direction bit flipping like you said Alex. I don't know what MC does, but Millipede CX22 just counts changes of state and looks at the direction bit in overscan. Any jerkiness in Millipede for you at slow speeds?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get you. Yet the mislabelling is ongoing for many, many years. If we would change the names now, I am afraid even more people will be confused.

 

The plan is, to offer versatile ROMs, which detect (and display) the controller type and then start the correct ROM for the user's controller.

I only encountered the mislabeling recently, so I wouldn't be upset by a change.

 

In my head, I refer to them with more technical names of "up/dn clock" and "quadrature". Using those names could indeed make the problem worse if that's a goal for anyone. :)

 

(I doubt you'll ever encounter it in a video game controller, but I ran across yet another encoding method that also uses two bits per axis. It pulses one bit for movement in the positive direction and the other bit for movement in the negative direction.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The right button (both ST and Amiga) is connected to pin 9 (INPT1), while the middle button (Amiga only) is on pin 5 (INPT0). Anyway, you can only read them if the mouse/trackball has pullup resitors connected to those pins (so the paddle caps are recharged when you release the buttons). According to the schematics I found, Amiga and some third-party dual mode (ST/Amiga) mice have them, but the original ST mouse does not.
If the pullups are present, you can read the buttons from INPT0/INPT1 (0=pressed).

Edited by alex_79
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I confirm that the double-speed cx22 rom is a bit jerky when moving at low speed, making it more difficult to place the cursor exactly where you want. The cx80/st mouse one is very smooth and precise instead. The jerky response is present in the normal speed cx22 version too, but much less noticeable there.

 

I did some tests and found that the direction bit in cx22 mode sometimes changes state when you stop the movement and I wonder if that could be the cause of the jerky behaviour. Note that I'm using a modified msx trackball, so confirmation from people using stock hardware is necessary.

 

As for the question if is it better to double the cx22 rom speed or cut in half the st mouse/cx80 one I think it depends on the game.

For missile command, I like the faster speed of the current cx80 version, but I find the cx22 (normal speed) playable as well, so in this case I think you could make the cx80 version slower.

 

In Colony 7, on the other hand, I find the cx22 version movement too slow so I think it would be better to make it like the cx80 version, and a way to smooth the cx22 movement in software is needed in that case (best way would be to double the polling rate, but I know that it might not be possible).

 

P.S. I'm still of the idea that a better naming convention than cx22/cx80 should be used for the roms....

My two cents, with the CX-22 (CX-80 thinks it's a CX-22), the movement feels perfect in Centipede and Millipede, sluggish in Colony7 and Missile Command. I have not yet modded my CX-80 to utilize true quadrature yet so I can't compare the other ROMs. If I do get around to modding it, it will be in the form of a female DB-9 connected to the exterior of the case, so that the original TB/JS operation through the stock cable will be unaffected.

 

Without having tested the ST modes on either game, I would say double CX-22 speed on Missile Command and Colony 7, and half the ST mode on Centipede/Millipede. The 'pedes are twitchy enough as it is.

 

 

Here is a CX22 version with doubled speed. Please give it a try.

 

BTW: For all MCTB versions, game variations 1,3,5... have slower speed (75%) than 2,4,6...(100%). Please test both and compare with both variations in CX80 or Amiga mouse ROMs.

Thanks, I'll try this later and give you feedback.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did some tests and found that the direction bit in cx22 mode sometimes changes state when you stop the movement and I wonder if that could be the cause of the jerky behaviour. Note that I'm using a modified msx trackball, so confirmation from people using stock hardware is necessary.

 

Jerkiness could be caused from the direction bit flipping like you said Alex. I don't know what MC does, but Millipede CX22 just counts changes of state and looks at the direction bit in overscan. Any jerkiness in Millipede for you at slow speeds?

This might be plausible. One thing I noticed when playing Millipede and Centipede, is if I am trying to move my ship along the bottom edge to move underneath a 'pede segment or spider, often my ship will jump up a pixel or two, crashing into the 'pede or spider when my intention was to slide underneath along the bottom. Generally I'll rotate the trackball left or right a low grade downward slope but my ship will bounce up upon release of the trackball, lowing a life. I've lost several this way.

 

If I get to modding my CX-80 to output quadrature, I will test the "CX-80" ROMs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The right button (both ST and Amiga) is connected to pin 9 (INPT1), while the middle button (Amiga only) is on pin 5 (INPT0).

That's scary to place a button between pin 5 and ground. Some systems (Sega for instance) use VCC on pin 5 so plugging an Amiga mouse might short the power supply, potentially smoking the voltage regulator if a low value shunt resistor is not placed inline with the button. :-o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

This might be plausible. One thing I noticed when playing Millipede and Centipede, is if I am trying to move my ship along the bottom edge to move underneath a 'pede segment or spider, often my ship will jump up a pixel or two, crashing into the 'pede or spider when my intention was to slide underneath along the bottom. Generally I'll rotate the trackball left or right a low grade downward slope but my ship will bounce up upon release of the trackball, lowing a life. I've lost several this way.

 

If I get to modding my CX-80 to output quadrature, I will test the "CX-80" ROMs.

That's what one of my wordy posts was saying.

 

You probably can only end up with a good balance between fast and slow.

 

If there were more cycles for a computer-like "curve" processing then moving slow could be adjusted to ignore jitter noise and be precise and solid, while letting every value in when zipping very fast to a far away spot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The right button (both ST and Amiga) is connected to pin 9 (INPT1), while the middle button (Amiga only) is on pin 5 (INPT0). Anyway, you can only read them if the mouse/trackball has pullup resitors connected to those pins (so the paddle caps are recharged when you release the buttons). According to the schematics I found, Amiga and some third-party dual mode (ST/Amiga) mice have them, but the original ST mouse does not.

If the pullups are present, you can read the buttons from INPT0/INPT1 (0=pressed).

 

 

Cool, so Colony 7 could be optimized for Amiga mice :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Cool, so Colony 7 could be optimized for Amiga mice :)

Plausible, but how many people have Amiga compatible trackballs? I'm planning on wiring the right button to pin 9 on my "CX-80" when I do mod it for true quadrature, although I'll still only ever get two buttons out of it. I will be using an external DB9 plug with the following circuit modifications I detailed earlier in the other thread (except I won't cut pins 1-4 but reroute gray code signals and uncut pins to an external plug):

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/243434-what-2600-titles-couldshould-have-trak-ball-support-added/?p=3378873

post-33189-0-34835500-1448664383.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I did some tests and found that the direction bit in cx22 mode sometimes changes state when you stop the movement and I wonder if that could be the cause of the jerky behaviour. Note that I'm using a modified msx trackball, so confirmation from people using stock hardware is necessary.

Looking at the CX-22 multimode schematic, I *think* the same is possible on that hardware. Though, it seems like it wouldn't happen consistently.

And, if the software considers the direction bit only when there's an actual clock bit state change, it shouldn't manifest in game play at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I did some tests and found that the direction bit in cx22 mode sometimes changes state when you stop the movement and I wonder if that could be the cause of the jerky behaviour. Note that I'm using a modified msx trackball, so confirmation from people using stock hardware is necessary.

Looking at the CX-22 multimode schematic, I *think* the same is possible on that hardware. Though, it seems like it wouldn't happen consistently.

And, if the software considers the direction bit only when there's an actual clock bit state change, it shouldn't manifest in game play at all.

 

I checked the trackball output again with the test rom posted here http://atariage.com/forums/topic/192031-stella-35-released/?do=findComment&comment=2435332 instead of the Testcart I used before and the issue with the flipping direction bit is almost completely gone (Only happens very sporadically now). Maybe the fact that the testcart uses the RIOT pins as output during the frame to check for the keypads was the cause.

 

 

I don't know what MC does, but Millipede CX22 just counts changes of state and looks at the direction bit in overscan. Any jerkiness in Millipede for you at slow speeds?

I think Millipede and Centipede play well in both modes. Anyway, all the ST Mouse versions seem to have a slightly more precise control at low speed than their cx22 couterparts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...