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Could Road Rash (3DO) be ported to the Jaguar?

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Oh sure, lets all not use are Jag CD's out of fear of wearing them out. But if you don't use it, it is the same as not having it. Just like your intelligence...I use my Jag CD nearly daily and for 2 decades it has outlasted nearly every other CD console I own at least twice over.

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Must be "misread month" or something around here.

 

Just said that there are so few JagCDs that targeting only those would let out the majority of Jag owners (10 to 1 or worse), given that they don't make them anymore and never made a lot to start with another solution seems appropriate to me .... obviously as this "other solution" does not exist as of now and it may never exist (I am sure as hell NOT working on it) it is just speculation.

 

Let me take a moment to explain where the speculation came from:

flash carts, in specific the Everdrive series and in even more details the advanced ones like ED64, MegaED, SD2SNES, ED N8.

 

Why those?

Because they all use the same pattern: 1 CPLD, 1 FPGA, some RAM, SD reader (and the USB for developers).

The cheaper of them (the ED64) is at ~100US$.

 

Second fact, byuu while making bsnes/higan invented the MSU1 spec for streaming on SNES, which no hw/game ever built prior supported but then something "magic" happened, Road Blaster was ported to run on it (yeah the FMV game), then SD2SNES designer ikari decided to add hw support for it on the flash cart SD2SNES ... fast-forward 2 years or so and now there's a dozen or more patched games that use MSU1 for streaming music ... afaik Road Blaster still is the only one streaming video as well but I haven't kept up.

I see this as an example of features that were not part of the original run of the console and yet do gain some traction and produce some interesting homebrews, ports, patches, modern development, whatchamacallit.

 

 

Last fact is that I believe the Jag is overdue a decent flash cart solution (no skunk) and even if a solution with just the CPLD, RAM, SD reader may suffice given the fixed memory layout and lack of banking of the original games (or vast majority of them) I was speculating that leaving a small FPGA on it as well and allowing direct SD access was not totally out of the realm of possibilities. I am aware no-one asks for the FPGA piece (or even just an advanced CPU) but there's some demand at least for the flash cart solution and if those existing carts pattern is any indication we're not totally in "dumbo"-land.

<EDIT>

Keep in mind that around 6 months ago or so a GX4000 flash cart (C4CPC) came about and that console sold only 15K units, once it was available around 200 CPC(+) games were patched to work on it. Yes it uses a "simple" microcontroller based design and patching is relatively easy still no-one really asked for it or believed it would ever be made.

</EDIT>

 

What could a developer do with such a solution is up for grabs, but if SNES Road Blaster port is any indicative, or VecDoom for that matter, then really is more a creativity challenge.

 

On other news, I am playing more of the devil advocate at this point as I don't exactly love my Jag as it is and even more I am normally only interested in games that were made during the commercial lifetime of any console I have. I do look at some modern patch, port etc.. from time to time but usually more as a curiosity rather than to really play them (exception would be Plutos for 7800, I did play it some for reasons I can't quite explain).

 

Let the name calling, skeptics jokes and whatever else the Jag fandom/unfandom throws at me begin.

Edited by phoenixdownita

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I do agree that a modern flash cart for the Jag would be a nice to have, though again I'm not sure any extra capabilities would be necessary or even used. A few things from my point of view about why I feel the way I do and why I don't believe certain things will ever come to fruition. First off, the Jag has an extremely limited user base, so comparing it to something like the SNES in terms of development or new hardware (flash or otherwise) isn't apples to apples. There were about 100 million SNES consoles sold, it's a very common console, everyone knows what a Super Nintendo is. Developing a modern flash cart for the Jag isn't as worth the ROI as those for other consoles. I'm not bashing the Jag, just stating facts here. The Lynx is a great example, I love the Lynx, when I was a kid I drooled over the photos and ads in magazines and I finally got one when they were on clearance for $99 with 4 games. I think it's far superior to the Game Gear...but it lacks the install base that the GG has. That's why there have been multiple mass produced GG flash cart solutions whereas the Lynx flash carts have been much smaller in scale and nothing beyond anything made by a guy in his basement. Which is cool, but again, the user base is a factor in these things.

 

Homebrewing itself is very niche, it takes a certain kind of person to want to even tinker around with coding an outdated console, let alone one who wants to code on one of the more niche consoles ever produced. Yes, I know about the PC-FX and Pippin and such, there are more niche consoles than the Jag, so fume-heads don't call me out on that. The folks who are out there developing on the Jag aren't asking for more power. That's why I think these pie in the sky hardware add-ons are so ridiculous. You've got a niche system and an even smaller amount of people want to develop on said system and somehow these people are pushing the limits of the Jag beyond what full time development teams did 20 years ago, so much so that they need additional hardware to handle their games? Show me one example of that. Again, I'm not knocking the homebrew games at all, I've bought everything that's come out in the last few years, but one or two guys making a game in their spare time aren't going to achieve, let alone exceed, retail games from the past. So why would they need additional hardware?

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I hear you and mostly agree, my speculation stemmed from the fact that most flash cart solutions seem to have some extra HW on-board anyway (be it spare CPLD gates or unused portions of the FPGA) and if it is made somehow available to the devs I don't see a problem, and I don't mean raw either (very selected few can perform FPGA programming and I am NOT one of them yet).

If SD access would be allowed then streaming from it is a possibility, what that would buy is another issue.

If a novel "mapper" is built and made available then bigger games can be built etc...etc....

 

I simply went to the next level of proposing that a 3D core (for as small as it could be made) would be a nice addition (a little like custom mappers are in the NES world adding a mishmash of features of other mappers, like extra sound channels but also per line interrupts, 1MB of CHR memory etc...etc...).

I am 100% aware that building it from scratch (FPGA flash cart but even just the 3D core) just to port one game, maybe like in this thread the 3DO Road Rash, is not realistic but so it wasn't that byuu wanted cycle accurate software emulation of the SNES.

 

Small correction about SNES sales figures, it sold 49M console and not 100M, it doesn't change its comparison to the Jag.

Edited by phoenixdownita

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Small correction about SNES sales figures, it sold 49M console and not 100M, it doesn't change its comparison to the Jag.

Indeed, not sure why I was thinking 100M.

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No as i stated..i'd of loved to have seen Starglider III on Jaguar/Konix and by seen i mean someone sign Jez San up to produce it as a flagship title for either platform, rather than the ports the Konix was planned to have and those of which work started on..... and those the Jaguar did see converted from MD/SNES...

 

I personally feel it'd been a better prospect than trying to bring Creature Shock to Jaguar CD and in case of the Konix, it would of been an ideal benchmark for 3D performance and lends itself well to the control set-up.

 

Things like Star Ray, Hammerfist, Last Ninja 2 on Konix would not of interested me, Jez doing Starglider III would of made me sit up and take notice as i loved the 1st 2 games on the ST and producing a third installment on either platform not out of bounds from a technical viewpoint either....

 

If his team could do Starglider 2 on the ST...i'd of watched with interest what they coaxed from Jaguar/Konix.

 

Starfox was fun, but i wanted the full freedom, not on-rails gameplay.

Edited by Lost Dragon

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Dylan Cuthbert "At Argonaut Software I started developing a polygon rasterizer using the Konix Multi-system’s sound DSP (which was a 12 bit cpu and kind of interesting), and had it creating the display lists that were then used by the system’s blitter chip to render the polygons. I had got all this working when the programmer who was contracted to develop a bike racing game for the system (Chris Walsh I think his name was) suddenly left that project, anyway this led me to have to take over and develop it properly into a playable demo, which I did....

 

My polygon engine would have been the start of a Starglider game I think, but that was scuppered with the mid-project change above.."

 

So given inital work into possibilty of bringing Starglider II to the Konix was started, as i said i'd of loved to of seen Starglider III running on it and had the hardware been released and done well, it might of been a likely contender for development.

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Although I like to talk of ways and techniques that may work in getting expansive and technically demanding games on the Jaguar, like a Quake type game, or a Road Rash type of game, and think that with the right programmers and time something good could be achieved, the reality of such a demanding project would only really have two possibilities: First, a really good programmer that just loves the Jaguar and wants to see how far they can push the boundaries in their free time, like the person or persons that do stuff like Quake on the Falcon, or Wolfenstiein 3D on the Genesis. Two, a rich individual who love the Jaguar and is willing to finance a development team on their own just to see it done and as a "gift" to the community with no aspirations for a return on the investment to undertake such a project, or a combination of these two possibilities.

 

So it's unlikely as hell to really happen, but I can talk about it and dream and have fun doing it, especially if there is someone in the conversation (like VladR) who just might be such a person as in the first possibility. We have a bunch of home brew developers in the community, but most seem to want to just stick to relatively small 2D projects (comparatively, I no these are no small achievements) like Impulse X and Degz/Superfly DX, etc.

From technical and personal perspective, it is indeed possible, that in future, I may gravitate towards coding something like NFS engine (as I must have spent thousand hrs perfecting the Alpine times on PC) - though - and this is the most important point (from the end-user perspective) - one track/one car (possibly duplicated to get a traffic) would be the most I would be willing to code and create - as there is zero technical challenge in modelling/texturing mode tracks/cars - that is merely artist's/designer's job.

 

There's other 3D stuff for jag that is on my plate right now. Now that I got my H.E.R.O. engine written in C to run at 60 fps on jag (no GPU or DSP was used, just 68000), I will soon (I'm on a coding break right now) start focusing on better artwork/textures, as those [obviously] got only about fraction of a percent of the total effort.

 

Next step for me would be to port the C engine to run on GPU. Once that's done, effort-wise, it's not really very far from one-track NFS demo, since I already have the hybrid engine codebase that merges 2D objects (e.g. trees in NFS) in 60 FPS (via OP) and 3D scene in 60 (or less) FPS.

 

Theoretically, I could do that now on 68k, but the 3D framerate would be probably very low (for NFS you can't use the algorithmic shortcuts as with H.E.R.O.'s camera angle), so it's best to wait till I port texturing to GPU (or DSP).

Note, that the 2D framerate (sky,trees,signs) would already be 60 fps, as ObjectProcessor guarantees 60 fps, as long you update the OP List within 1/60s. Which I am already doing.

 

Better wait till it's ported to GPU, so that the 3D terrain portion runs in 20-30 fps, and 2D portion at 60 fps.

Though, I just realized, that NFS has also an in-car camera, which covers half of screen by car interior - thus the 3D portion would really cover only about 40-50% of screen - which might actually be fast enough to texture (using appropriate hacks, of course, not generic texturing routines) on 68k, at given resolution, at 10-15 fps.

 

 

 

However, I was always curious about your standpoint on NFS on Jag. We didn't get to finish that discussion on JSII [before it vanished].

 

In short - are you more interested in :

1. Technical Demo - which proves a game like that is indeed entirely possible on Jaguar (though just with one track)

2. Full Game (8 tracks, 4 environments, 10 cars, 5 gameplay modes)

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Not HERO - unfinished

Not PoP - unfinished / never started

Not Gyrus - unfinished / never started

Not Klax - unfinished

Not NFS - unfinished / never started

Not Star Raiders - unstarted (still picking out a font and colour scheme)

Not vrBasic - unprobably

Not PlanetSurface RPG - unfinished / never started

Not Western RPG - unfinished

 

I'm sure there's more that you've claimed you can do 'in a weekend' but is anyone gullible enough to take anything you say seriously anymore?

 

Not Interested - Nailed it 100%

 

[edited because the list needed to be longer]

Edited by CyranoJ
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I'm sure there's more that you've claimed you can do 'in a weekend' but is anyone gullible enough to take anything you say seriously anymore?

 

Although I like to talk of ways and techniques that may work in getting expansive and technically demanding games on the Jaguar, like a Quake type game, or a Road Rash type of game, and think that with the right programmers and time something good could be achieved, the reality of such a demanding project would only really have two possibilities: First, a really good programmer that just loves the Jaguar and wants to see how far they can push the boundaries in their free time, like the person or persons that do stuff like Quake on the Falcon, or Wolfenstiein 3D on the Genesis.

 

So it's unlikely as hell to really happen, but I can talk about it and dream and have fun doing it, especially if there is someone in the conversation (like VladR) who just might be such a person as in the first possibility.

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In short - are you more interested in :

1. Technical Demo - which proves a game like that is indeed entirely possible on Jaguar (though just with one track)

2. Full Game (8 tracks, 4 environments, 10 cars, 5 gameplay modes)

I'd be more interested in a technical demo. Why would anyone want a full game with 8 tracks over a technical demo?

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I'd be more interested in a technical demo. Why would anyone want a full game with 8 tracks over a technical demo?

 

You won't get either. You'll just get pages and pages of how great he is, a promise to 'set some time in the future' and then it'll get buried. Like everything else he's ever attempted.

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From technical and personal perspective, it is indeed possible, that in future, I may gravitate towards coding something like NFS engine (as I must have spent thousand hrs perfecting the Alpine times on PC) - though - and this is the most important point (from the end-user perspective) - one track/one car (possibly duplicated to get a traffic) would be the most I would be willing to code and create - as there is zero technical challenge in modelling/texturing mode tracks/cars - that is merely artist's/designer's job.

 

There's other 3D stuff for jag that is on my plate right now. Now that I got my H.E.R.O. engine written in C to run at 60 fps on jag (no GPU or DSP was used, just 68000), I will soon (I'm on a coding break right now) start focusing on better artwork/textures, as those [obviously] got only about fraction of a percent of the total effort.

 

Next step for me would be to port the C engine to run on GPU. Once that's done, effort-wise, it's not really very far from one-track NFS demo, since I already have the hybrid engine codebase that merges 2D objects (e.g. trees in NFS) in 60 FPS (via OP) and 3D scene in 60 (or less) FPS.

 

Theoretically, I could do that now on 68k, but the 3D framerate would be probably very low (for NFS you can't use the algorithmic shortcuts as with H.E.R.O.'s camera angle), so it's best to wait till I port texturing to GPU (or DSP).

Note, that the 2D framerate (sky,trees,signs) would already be 60 fps, as ObjectProcessor guarantees 60 fps, as long you update the OP List within 1/60s. Which I am already doing.

 

Better wait till it's ported to GPU, so that the 3D terrain portion runs in 20-30 fps, and 2D portion at 60 fps.

Though, I just realized, that NFS has also an in-car camera, which covers half of screen by car interior - thus the 3D portion would really cover only about 40-50% of screen - which might actually be fast enough to texture (using appropriate hacks, of course, not generic texturing routines) on 68k, at given resolution, at 10-15 fps.

 

 

 

However, I was always curious about your standpoint on NFS on Jag. We didn't get to finish that discussion on JSII [before it vanished].

 

In short - are you more interested in :

1. Technical Demo - which proves a game like that is indeed entirely possible on Jaguar (though just with one track)

2. Full Game (8 tracks, 4 environments, 10 cars, 5 gameplay modes)

While a tech demo is cool, and better than nothing, IMO, I'd rather see a full game as I have no need to have a tech demo just to 'prove" it can be done. I'm not a nay-sayer that thinks it's impossible. But then you have to start somewhere...a tech demo might peak interest to see how many in the community would buy a full version someday. It would also prove to those who say you will never finish anything that you are capable of doing something, and more than just the usual 2D scrolling home brew stuff, which is also cool, and better than nothing, but I would desperately like to see some decent 3D/psuedo 3D home brews on the Jag, like Dr. Typo's stuff, but on a more ambitious scale.

Edited by Gunstar

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While a tech demo is cool, and better than nothing, IMO, I'd rather see a full game as I have no need to have a tech demo just to 'prove" it can be done. I'm not a nay-sayer that thinks it's impossible. But then you have to start somewhere...a tech demo might peak interest to see how many in the community would buy a full version someday. It would also prove to those who say you will never finish anything that you are capable of doing something, and more than just the usual 2D scrolling home brew stuff, which is also cool, and better than nothing, but I would desperately like to see some decent 3D/psuedo 3D home brews on the Jag, like Dr. Typo's stuff, but on a more ambitious scale.

Oh, I understand you are not a naysayer very well. Don't worry about that.

 

For whatever reason, I thought with NFS, you were hoping for something like a proof-of-concept, that it can run on jag. But it's entirely possible I don't recall the details of our few-yrs-old discussion of this back at JSII.

 

And honestly, do you really think I care for what the coding jokers that can barely handle more than 1% of jag's power say ? Don't worry about that ;-)

Edited by VladR
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And honestly, do you really think I care for what the coding jokers that can barely handle more than 1% of jag's power say ? Don't worry about that ;-)

You sound very experienced with the Jag, can you send a link to some of your work that I can download and put onto my Skunk or burn to CD? Looking forward to checking out some new homebrew that really pushes the Jag hardware, thanks!

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Oh, I understand you are not a naysayer very well. Don't worry about that.

 

For whatever reason, I thought with NFS, you were hoping for something like a proof-of-concept, that it can run on jag. But it's entirely possible I don't recall the details of our few-yrs-old discussion of this back at JSII.

 

And honestly, do you really think I care for what the coding jokers that can barely handle more than 1% of jag's power say ? Don't worry about that ;-)

I may have indeed suggested or agreed in old conversations of doing some proof-of-concept stuff, there was a time when I wanted it proven that the Jag could do most anything the 3DO could do, given the right people doing it. There are already many duplicate titles between the two and in every case, the Jag equals or surpasses the 3DO versions, even with lesser support. If there were any stumbling blocks for the Jag, it's only in the lack of 1MB video ram the 3DO has that the Jag does not, but I am still a firm believer that the Jag's chips, bugs and all (the 3DO has it's own silicon bugs) are more powerful than the 3DO's, but limited by having less memory to work within. But I think clever programmers can find ways around it and at least match the 3DO's potential in areas where there are no direct correlations. But in years since I have learned that doubters will doubt, even if the proof is shoved in their face. Haters will hate for hate's sake, trolls are trolls for trolling's sake and deniers will deny to the end even when the truth is obvious. As I have said before; The fool and the wise-man both think the other spews nonsense, but only one is right.

Edited by Gunstar

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I may have indeed suggested or agreed in old conversations of doing some proof-of-concept stuff, there was a time when I wanted it proven that the Jag could do most anything the 3DO could do, given the right people doing it. There are already many duplicate titles between the two and in every case, the Jag equals or surpasses the 3DO versions, even with lesser support. If there were any stumbling blocks for the Jag, it's only in the lack of 1MB video ram the 3DO has that the Jag does not, but I am still a firm believer that the Jag's chips, bugs and all (the 3DO has it's own silicon bugs) are more powerful than the 3DO's, but limited by having less memory to work within. But I think clever programmers can find ways around it and at least match the 3DO's potential in areas where there are no direct correlations. But in years since I have learned that doubters will doubt, even if the proof is shoved in their face. Haters will hate for hate's sake, trolls are trolls for trolling's sake and deniers will deny to the end even when the truth is obvious. As I have said before; The fool and the wise-man both think the other spews nonsense, but only one is right.

 

Serious question... What proof? I'm not as keen on semi-generic multi-platform titles as a comparison point, because that's usually hit or miss depending upon who is programming it, how much time was given for development, budget, etc. (Doom is a perfect example where the Jaguar version is better than the 3DO version, but we know for a fact that the 3DO version was not done the right way by the programmer herself (and Jaguar Doom for that matter is probably not all it can be either))

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Also remembering that a POC probably wouldn't have any AI, minimal sound and graphics compared to a final version of the game.

These all impact fps and playability. AvP alpha/beta are a good example of this.

 

Therefore it wouldn't really prove much compared to a full game if that was the goal of a POC.

 

In which case by the time you have added everything to a POC (so it is accurate), you may as well make the full game.

Edited by Sporadic
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Serious question... What proof? I'm not as keen on semi-generic multi-platform titles as a comparison point, because that's usually hit or miss depending upon who is programming it, how much time was given for development, budget, etc. (Doom is a perfect example where the Jaguar version is better than the 3DO version, but we know for a fact that the 3DO version was not done the right way by the programmer herself (and Jaguar Doom for that matter is probably not all it can be either))

Of course you point to Doom. but how about Wolfenstein 3D and Robinson's Requiem? And of course 3DO Doom is excused by poor programming, but GOD FORBID we allow the Jaguar the same excuse with it's poorly programmed games, oh no, it's a weaker system in it's case...hypocrisy. (not directed at you Bill, but in general)

Edited by Gunstar

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Also remembering that a POC probably wouldn't have any AI, minimal sound and graphics compared to a final version of the game.

These all impact fps and playability. AvP alpha/beta are a good example of this.

 

Therefore it wouldn't really prove much compared to a full game if that was the goal of a POC.

 

In which case by the time you have added everything to a POC (so it is accurate), you may as well make the full game.

This is true. And why would we want a full game instead of a tech demo anyway? Why not just do a bunch of tech demos on every console that comes out then move on to the next generation? :lolblue:

Tech Demos are nice for a minute. Full games are nice for years or ever.

Edited by Gunstar

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Also remembering that a POC probably wouldn't have any AI, minimal sound and graphics compared to a final version of the game.

These all impact fps and playability. AvP alpha/beta are a good example of this.

 

Therefore it wouldn't really prove much compared to a full game if that was the goal of a POC.

 

In which case by the time you have added everything to a POC (so it is accurate), you may as well make the full game.

 

I think there are different types of proof of concepts. One is the aforementioned tech demo that just has a basic running engine and no or limited AI, collision detection, etc. If instead someone made, say, a single level demo of a much larger game that still nevertheless had all of the elements of the real game, I think that would be more than enough "proof" of capability.

 

On a side note, in the past I made the mistake that apparently several others made that the posted YouTube demo of Native on the Jaguar was a real gameplay segment from the game. In fact, it's the unreleased Nuon version that's popularly posted as the Jaguar version, which makes considerable sense considering the relative resolution. That's why it's so important to have a demo that's run from the actual hardware, and, if you can't run it yourself, at least posted by (and captured from the real hardware) someone known reliable.

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I think there are different types of proof of concepts. One is the aforementioned tech demo that just has a basic running engine and no or limited AI, collision detection, etc. If instead someone made, say, a single level demo of a much larger game that still nevertheless had all of the elements of the real game, I think that would be more than enough "proof" of capability.

 

Yep, agreed.

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The 3DO, in general, had much better support in every way over the Jag, and this is why there are more good games to point to on the 3DO, not because it's better or more powerful.

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