The Video Game Homebrew Crash of 2016

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Would love to see the BANNING of this stuff at AtariAge. If it's not good enough for the AtariAge store, try harder.

I think censorship is not the answer.

 

I feel bounded because I am a homebrewer too. So I cannot criticize as open as I would like too. But everyone else should feel free and voice its opinion even if it is very negative. In a civilized way of course!

[Matthew]

I think censorship is not the answer.

 

I feel bounded because I am a homebrewer too. So I cannot criticize as open as I would like too. But everyone else should feel free and voice its opinion even if it is very negative. In a civilized way of course!

 

Then perhaps, selectively move sales threads to the "marketplace" sub forum. Only allow those with prior permission to post sales threads in the "Atari 2600" sub forum.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

When the pattern is obvious, this might be an option. Also requesting that at least a video, screenshots or a demo ROM is available might be an idea.

[Matthew]

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/231781-sharknado-atari-2600-limited-edition/?p=3136825

 

The above link always makes me cringe. VIP premium for only $75, WOW, what a deal.

[WolfAmongWolves]

However, if some guy writes his simple and blocky bB game that's not much fun to play and has bad graphics... with the express purpose of milking 50-100 people of $40+ and using someone else's IP to tie-in and create interest with the game, then I think people buying that game are doing themselves and the community a huge dis-service. A small market it is, but it is a market. If you flood the market with low quality Chinese stuff and people keep buying it... then ultimately those producers of higher quality but more expensive to produce (both in time and materials) tend to pack up and move on to other things. Ultimately people can write and try to sell anything they want... but if you support the above sort of release (poorly designed bB stuff churned out in a week or two) then you pretty much end up with the market full of that kind of stuff, and not much else.

 

I still don't see why that would dissuade you and other programmers from continuing to make great games. I'm not a programmer myself, so forgive me if this sounds naive, but I always thought that today's 2600 programmers were in it for the fun of programming (even if those last 20% are a chore), the sense of personal accomplishment derived from constantly pushing the machine beyond its limits, and the recognition they receive both from other programmers and from players if they develop an exceptional game. As Thomas said, it's not about the money, so I assume you are using the sales numbers as a measure of appreciation for the game rather than as a measure of return on your invested programming time. As I said before, you guys get recognition in spades here on AA. When a truly great homebrew is released, people notice, and people know who the programmers are. There's an entire thread here dedicated solely to how awesome Stay Frosty 2 is, discussing it's level design, sharing how far people have gotten, etc. I don't see any of that for the low quality collector's edition games, because the people who buy those are mostly content just owning them. You're catering to a different market, and the fact that there's collectors out there who will buy anything doesn't in any way affect the appreciation that players feel for a truly great game and for the programmers behind it.

 

Case in point, I'm absolutely certain that if e.g. you, Thomas, or SpiceWare had started something like the "Knight Rider 2600 Project" thread, the reaction to it would have been very different, because AAers would have known and trusted that you have the skill and dedication to pull it off. And that has absolutely nothing to do with sales numbers.

[GroovyBee]

Case in point, I'm absolutely certain that if e.g. you, Thomas, or SpiceWare had started something like the "Knight Rider 2600 Project" thread, the reaction to it would have been very different, because AAers would have known and trusted that you have the skill and dedication to pull it off. And that has absolutely nothing to do with sales numbers.

I think this is part of the problem. If the "old hands" put something out, most people think that "They've done a few games, so they know what they are doing and what direction to take the game in, so I don't need to say anything because it'll be good". I guess in short, its the fact that your reputation precedes you when you are a well known for developing games for a particular system.

 

When I have spare time I play other people's WIP games and try to offer good feedback but as previously mentioned, there are lots of titles out there for every system and you can't follow them all.

[+Andrew Davie]

 

I still don't see why that would dissuade you and other programmers from continuing to make great games.

 

Good points and reasonable questions.

As an artist, and yes these days I consider my work creative and artistic even if the really cool stuff is technically invisible to most of those who have it... when I see that the community, in general, places little relative value on the technical/playable/artistic merit of a game and instead is willing to value games that took little effort, go for gimmick/flashiness and steal IP, then I question why I don't focus my efforts elsewhere. So that's what I do. Although money is not the reason I programmed games and spent countless hours writing tutorials and helping others learn how to write games, I'm not silly enough to continue "for the community" or even "for my own enjoyment" when other developers are being supported (by people buying their stuff) in releasing garbage. For big $ even. With stolen IP even, even. I start to question "why shouldn't I just churn out a few dozen bB games a year, perhaps put some pretty labels on, tie in to old and abandoned IP? My name could sell a lot of games and I could make a few thousand $$ off those willing to buy anything." And of course I don't do that... because it's not about money, though I could sorely use some $$ right now. It's not about adulation or recognition either. The fact that I *could* do the same is pretty much a motivational show stopper for me, because I don't want to but would also feel that I'm cheating myself by spending my time doing anything else. That is, where I'm part of a community that routinely spends big $ on stuff that takes bugger all time or skill to produce. Some people release stuff where it's ALL about money, and greed, and buyers just have to have stuff no matter what it is. I think there's more and more of this, and I don't think it's good for anyone. It's not how '2600 homebrewing started (around 1996 for me), and it isn't what I would hope to see the '2600 community come to.

So, having said that it's not about me. But that's my reasoning for why supporting these limited edition bB games with stolen IP is bad. It's discouraging genuinely creative games and programmers from spending appreciable time making quality products. That's your choice, really. My choice has been, and to use a quote... "the only way to win the game is not to play at all".

[CDS Games]

There's no answer to this Andrew. There's no fix to it. It's nothing unique to Atari, it's just an age-old manifestation of the artist's dilemma-- chase popularity, or do what you really believe in, though it may not be popular.

 

I have heard similar complaints from very talented artists. Based on their behavior I've found there are actually two ways of not playing the game. They can bow out entirely and not produce anything--and usually in the process become increasingly frustrated because they have an inherent impulse to create without an outlet. Basically, they turn from creative artists to carping critics. A waste of good talent in my opinion.

 

The other way is to just tune out every last aspect about what you hate about the "industry", and just focus on the craft like nothing else exists. Head down, pencil to paper, and charge ahead on what moves you without a care in the world for what will be received or not. Throw it out there and let the ages and future generations sort it out. This, I think, is the way of the true artist.

[+Andrew Davie]

There's no answer to this Andrew. There's no fix to it. It's nothing unique to Atari, it's just an age-old manifestation of the artist's dilemma-- chase popularity, or do what you really believe in, though it may not be popular.

 

I have heard similar complaints from very talented artists. Based on their behavior I've found there are actually two ways of not playing the game. They can bow out entirely and not produce anything--and usually in the process become increasingly frustrated because they have an inherent impulse to create without an outlet. Basically, they turn from creative artists to carping critics. A waste of good talent in my opinion.

 

The other way is to just tune out every last aspect about what you hate about the "industry", and just focus on the craft like nothing else exists. Head down, pencil to paper, and charge ahead on what moves you without a care in the world for what will be received or not. Throw it out there and let the ages and future generations sort it out. This, I think, is the way of the true artist.

 

That's a great reply. There's a third option - find something else to love, and pour your heart into that.

Cheers

A

[+DZ-Jay]

There's no answer to this Andrew. There's no fix to it. It's nothing unique to Atari, it's just an age-old manifestation of the artist's dilemma-- chase popularity, or do what you really believe in, though it may not be popular.

 

I have heard similar complaints from very talented artists. Based on their behavior I've found there are actually two ways of not playing the game. They can bow out entirely and not produce anything--and usually in the process become increasingly frustrated because they have an inherent impulse to create without an outlet. Basically, they turn from creative artists to carping critics. A waste of good talent in my opinion.

 

The other way is to just tune out every last aspect about what you hate about the "industry", and just focus on the craft like nothing else exists. Head down, pencil to paper, and charge ahead on what moves you without a care in the world for what will be received or not. Throw it out there and let the ages and future generations sort it out. This, I think, is the way of the true artist.

 

Bravo! CDS Games, you nailed it! I take the second approach: I'm in this for the fun, the passion, and the love for the hobby. It was a childhood dream of mine to make video games for my beloved console (Intellivision), and now 30 years later I have the chance. I feel it was a privilege that my game was so well received, and an honour that it managed to influence the quality and polish of later home-brews for the platform. It blows my mind to be considered a peer among others of renown in this community.

 

Had it flopped, it would surely had impacted on my ego and self-esteem (how can it not?), but I would just learn from it and carry on.

 

I'd like to say that I came into this hobby directly from the cold -- with no skills, no friends, no name, no fame, and no glory; so my passion burns just as bright without them.

 

-dZ.

Edited November 15, 2015 by DZ-Jay

[+DZ-Jay]

 

That's a great reply. There's a third option - find something else to love, and pour your heart into that.

Cheers

A

 

Yes, but that third option typically comes without winging about past unfulfilled glories or harping about that other outlet you left behind.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

 

Yes, but that third option typically comes without winging about past unfulfilled glories or harping about that other outlet you left behind.

It is hard to let go this hobby.

[CDS Games]

 

That's a great reply. There's a third option - find something else to love, and pour your heart into that.

Cheers

A

 

LOL...that can work too. I guess I was assuming that your heart was in this to a degree that it wouldn't change. Nothing wrong with moving on and discovering something else.

 

By the way, this community right here will the bulk of who remembers and judges games into the next generation. Not the collectors. And in that regard I think you have nothing to worry about as far as appreciation!

[+DZ-Jay]

 

Thomas, nostalgia isn't what it used to be....

(edit: I hope that joke translates -- if not ask me to explain it)

 

I think we're talking past each other. I understand how Thomas and you feel, I do. However, winging about how other games of lesser quality than what you feel is deservedly yours, makes you sound a like an entitled prick.

 

I don't know either of you, but I would guess this is probably not an accurate depiction of you, nor how you want to be perceived.

 

When my game won (Intellivision) Best Game Of The Year 2012, some people said pretty much the same thing about it: "how can you people vote for it?? It's merely a Pac-Man clone! It doesn't even push the limits of the hardware? It's a stupidly simple game to make with pretty animations! Look at this other brilliant port of a classic 30 year old title, it's pixel-perfect accurate! It's virtually impossible to do and it was done! How can that hold a candle to it?"

 

I thought the entire thing was so silly, I publicly conceded the title to the other game because it seemed the programmer wanted it more than I. Why does it matter? Sure, I like the recognition, but I think my game is good, and I would do it again, and I will do more; so who cares if everyone agrees with me? People play it and enjoy it. I don't measure my success by the numbers of downloads, awards, reviews, or units sold -- but by the satisfaction of having completed it, and having polished it like a gem.

 

The problem with the retro-video game community, like CDS Games said is, having the wrong expectations: if you chase popularity and measure yourself by it, then you'll have to accept that people are not as enlightened as one might hope. If you pursue your ideals, then you'll have to accept that they may not be shared with the rest of the community, and just do it for its own sake.

 

-dZ.

Edited November 15, 2015 by DZ-Jay

[CDS Games]

 

I'm in this for the fun, the passion, and the love for the hobby. It was a childhood dream of mine to make video games for my beloved console (Intellivision), and now 30 years later I have the chance.

 

Yep, me too! I came into the hacking scene well after the hack glut. All it did was inspire me not to just tweak pixels but think hard about game play and giving people a new experience on the system. So this all kinda feels familiar with bBasic.

[+DZ-Jay]

 

I think we're talking past each other. I understand how Thomas and you feel, I do. However, winging about how other games of lesser quality than what you feel is deservedly yours, makes you sound a like an entitled prick.

 

 

P.S. I shouldn't have to say this, but that was not meant as an insult, just an outsider observation. I respect your past work and commend your passion; I just do not agree with the delivery of your views.

 

-dZ.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I think we're talking past each other. I understand how Thomas and you feel, I do. However, winging about how other games of lesser quality than what you feel is deservedly yours, makes you sound a like an entitled prick.

 

I don't know either of you, but I would guess this is probably not an accurate depiction of you, nor how you want to be perceived.

It is not about my games (or Andrew's), it is about all quality games. Just look at Scramble! One can easily see how much work went into it, how it was polished to make it as good as possible. It oozes quality! (can you say that?)

 

Games like those deserve respect. Those should be encouraged.

 

Yes, Scramble gets a lot of positive feedback, people like it and they will play it. But how many will buy it, compared to the other type of game we are talking about? How much money will be spend to into Scramble? Compare the sales and money raised with a limited edition, bad game. Based on the work and talent invested, Scramble should sell 10 times better (at least!). But this will not happen.

 

Maybe the flash carts are part of the problem. Before people interested into the game would buy a loose cart. Great! Now many of them have stopped doing so, and so the collectors have taken control of the remaining sales. They have different requirements, the packaging and how rare something is, seems more important to them. But that's a different discussion...

 

The problem with the retro-video game community, like CDS Games said is, having the wrong expectations: if you chase popularity and measure yourself by it, then you'll have to accept that people are not as enlightened as one might hope. If you pursue your ideals, then you'll have to accept that they may not be shared with the rest of the community, and just do it for its own sake.

I can live with low popularity. No problem, else I would not be here. But I have problems if the distribution of this popularity is very uneven.

[+Andrew Davie]

 

I think we're talking past each other. I understand how Thomas and you feel, I do. However, winging about how other games of lesser quality than what you feel is deservedly yours, makes you sound a like an entitled prick.

 

 

The thing is, I don't think you do understand my views, so to clarify I'll quote myself...

 

Some guy picks up bB, learns how to program, makes a simple game and puts it on cartridge... pays for a limited production run and sells them for $20 a pop, I have no problem with that. We should all support the efforts of people living this dream.

 

 

See... up there... where I'm explicitly supporting and encouraging the newbie who doesn't have the skillz but who does have the passion? That's being an, and I'll quote again, "entitled prick"...? My original post was about the *buyers* in the community who support those who are out to make a quick buck with dubious tie-ins and at the expense of those who will buy anything and eventually at the expense of the community in general. And of course it was about the vultures who make that stuff in the first place. It wasn't about bB and it wasn't about looking down upon simple games and most certainly not about dissing the passionate people who want to have their game on cartridge and sell a few copies. Interesting that the responses have come to ad hominem attacks, but there's the interweb for you.

[+DZ-Jay]

 

The thing is, I don't think you do understand my views, so to clarify I'll quote myself...

 

 

See... up there... where I'm explicitly supporting and encouraging the newbie who doesn't have the skillz but who does have the passion? That's being an, and I'll quote again, "entitled prick"...? My original post was about the *buyers* in the community who support those who are out to make a quick buck with dubious tie-ins and at the expense of those who will buy anything and eventually at the expense of the community in general. And of course it was about the vultures who make that stuff in the first place. It wasn't about bB and it wasn't about looking down upon simple games and most certainly not about dissing the passionate people who want to have their game on cartridge and sell a few copies. Interesting that the responses have come to ad hominem attacks, but there's the interweb for you.

 

That's fair, and my apologies for mixing you up with other's posts. My comments were directed at Thomas mostly and to others who are on the bB bashing bandwagon.

 

-dZ.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Where did I bash bB?

[+swlovinist]

First of all I want to say that I am huge fan of the homebrew scene and also have personally contributed to some small run projects made for charity and PRGE shows. I stand behind the projects I have been apart of, knowing that while they are a collectible first, the games were fun to play. I was not the programmer, but helped get Bb games on to physical cart. Collecting and gaming has evolved significantly over the years. The public demand for projects has grown, along with the business side of retro gaming. In my perspective, there will always be AAA projects, typically offered on Atariage store, then there are individual projects offered by individuals here in the community, and finally there are show exclusive projects, which are increasing with the growing number of cons happening. All these things help bring awareness to a classic system, that is getting close to being 40 years old. I dont see a crash at all. I see that individuals are using homebrew games as an expression of art, culture, etc...which to me is alot different than why games were made back in the day. It is the combination of all these different types of projects, games, etc that bring people together to celebrate one of the all time classic systems of all time. If anything, these projects help continue the popularity of the system that helps everyone out.

Edited November 15, 2015 by swlovinist

[+DZ-Jay]

Where did I bash bB?

 

LOL! I can't win. Let me clarify what I said last: My comments were directed mostly at Thomas for winging. They were also directed at people who were bashing bB.

 

Does that make more sense?

 

-dZ.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Not to me.

[SIO2]

So there is this group of folks who program in this primitive language on a primitive machine and they say, If Atari (or whoever) had only spent some time on their game and put some effort in, look what they could have achieved.

 

But if Atari had spent 10 years developing a game they would have had to charge $600 per cart and there would have been no Atari.

 

So one day long after Atari is mostly forgotten there comes a guy that figures out how to cram a more advanced language into the primitive machine and adds a more advanced storage media. Then a new group of people gather around the primitive machine and start to play with it and have fun until an old timer comes and smashes the new guys system. Then he walks off into the wilderness mumbling about how they were slackers and he will never write another copy of a game that already existed on a more advanced platform because people won't appreciate it now that everyone is dancing naked and playing abstract, creative and original games.

Edited November 15, 2015 by SIO2

[Omegamatrix]

Some people may be turned off by seeing a lot of similar looking BB games, but you're going to get that with a pre-built kernel that is designed for flexibility. There are those that take BB to the next level like the Mario game, or people who are real creative like Cybearg.

 

 

I tend to really enjoy seeing the BB releases where people have molded it in new ways, like iesposta's demo of Satan's Hollow. I truthfully don't pay attention to any game unless it jumps out to me somehow right away. It doesn't matter if it's BB or not.