What's the Worst Console You Ever Played?

[78001987]

 

Who cares about "what ifs?," though (other than for fun discussion), when we know what actually happened? The reality is, the NES did outclass its competition with a superior library, regardless of the reasons. Now if someone said, "I like the SMS better," or even "I like the 7800 better," so be it, because they have every right to like what they like. That should have nothing to do with unmet or untapped potential, though.

and my point is - that's a dangerous sentiment. In sports, people criticize cheaters or steroid takers all the time. Barry Bonds will likely never make he Hall of Fall, because of this. In business, insider trading and antitrust cases are legal matters. The reasons, the motivations, the methods and tactics are just as, if not more important than the results.

 

It's kind of like saying "I don't care that they cheated, or broke the law, because I'm a fan of the product of their bad/cheating/illegal practices." I have a difficult time being a fan of anything that employs shady practices to get ahead.

Edited January 15, 2016 by 78001987

[Bill Loguidice]

and my point is - that's a dangerous sentiment. In sports, people criticize cheaters or steroid takers all the time. Barry Bonds will likely never make he Hall of Fall, because of this. In business, insider trading and antitrust cases are legal matters. The reasons, the motivations, the methods and tactics are just as, if not more important than the results.

 

It's kind of like saying "I don't care that they cheated, or broke the law, because I'm a fan of the product of their bad/cheating/illegal practices." I have a difficult time being a fan of anything that employs shady practices to get ahead.

 

Again, I can appreciate not being a fan of it. There are people to this day who don't care for one company or another because of some past indiscretion (despite often having nothing to do with the regime in place now) that they'll seemingly never get over, and that's fine, but it doesn't change the end result. In your Barry Bonds example, sure he cheated according to the rules of the game, but he's still the all-time home run leader and still impacted all of the games - and all those involved in the games - he was a part of. Someone might have strong opinions about him, but they can't erase that history (and I wouldn't be so sure he'll NEVER get into the hall of fame, either, but that's a discussion for another day).

 

So yes, let's acknowledge Nintendo's misdeeds - and I think we've all done that sufficiently even in this thread - but let's not ignore the end result either, which was a needed boost to the industry and that incredible library of software.

[78001987]

 

Again, I can appreciate not being a fan of it. There are people to this day who don't care for one company or another because of some past indiscretion (despite often having nothing to do with the regime in place now) that they'll seemingly never get over, and that's fine, but it doesn't change the end result. In your Barry Bonds example, sure he cheated according to the rules of the game, but he's still the all-time home run leader and still impacted all of the games - and all those involved in the games - he was a part of. Someone might have strong opinions about him, but they can't erase that history (and I wouldn't be so sure he'll NEVER get into the hall of fame, either, but that's a discussion for another day).

 

So yes, let's acknowledge Nintendo's misdeeds - and I think we've all done that sufficiently even in this thread - but let's not ignore the end result either, which was a needed boost to the industry and that incredible library of software.

And this part here - in my fully fallible personal opinion - is the part I don't agree with.

 

I don't find their software library to be very incredible. I find it to be incredibly mediocre and hum drum, compared to the nostalgia-based hype it receives. But my reasons for that - are rooted in all of the comparisons I've made above, the technical aspects and direct comparisons of performance and features, rather than personal aesthetics.

 

The shady business practices just acts as the icing on the opinion cake.

[Bill Loguidice]

And this part here - in my fully fallible personal opinion - is the part I don't agree with.

 

I don't find their software library to be very incredible. I find it to be incredibly mediocre and hum drum, compared to the nostalgia-based hype it receives. But my reasons for that - are rooted in all of the comparisons I've made above, the technical aspects and direct comparisons of performance and features, rather than personal aesthetics.

 

The shady business practices just acts as the icing on the opinion cake.

 

That's fine, but summarily dismissing a library of 700 games (many from some legendary developers and which were the beginnings of legendary franchises) - some of which are hard to deny as technically impressive for the era with or without helper chips - is very hard to take, particularly when you look at what was available on the competition. While the SMS had a decent 300+ title library, the 7800 couldn't even muster anywhere close to 100 7800-specific titles. That's a hard comparison for either - especially the 7800 - to win against the NES. So yeah, not liking the NES is just fine, but I think it's easy to understand why that's not going to be a popular opinion.

[Papa]

It's hard for me not to agree that the strong-arming may have saved the game industry through the eighties! Imagine if they didn't force exclusivity!? Perhaps there would have been a higher res, higher color, better playing version of every other game ('cept those shiny Nintendo only games) for the Master System, or even a CAPCOM system or a KONAMI system, or *shudder*, a ton of systems that dwindle what would become the NES juggernaut library! It's quite an interesting what if. It makes me happy that the Sega Genesis came along!

Edited January 15, 2016 by Papa

[Papa]

 

That's fine, but summarily dismissing a library of 700 games (many from some legendary developers and which were the beginnings of legendary franchises) - some of which are hard to deny as technically impressive for the era with or without helper chips - is very hard to take, particularly when you look at what was available on the competition. While the SMS had a decent 300+ title library, the 7800 couldn't even muster anywhere close to 100 7800-specific titles. That's a hard comparison for either - especially the 7800 - to win against the NES. So yeah, not liking the NES is just fine, but I think it's easy to understand why that's not going to be a popular opinion.

 

This reminds me of how Atari put so many games in so little chip memory! When comparing all these games we may want to consider that when Nintendo did it in 48K Atari may have done it in 16K and so on...

[+thegoldenband]

But there it is in the highlighted sentence.

 

Obviously, one person's level of "fun" or their personal nostalgic sense of what they convinced themselves was "fun" back in 1986, is not something that can be tangibly measured in numbers, or any other demonstrable metric.

 

but you can demonstrate technical prowess in resolution, # of colors, # of sprites, and resultant CPU speed and performance, like sprite flicker, missing features, or entirely changed gameplay elements due to technical challenges inherent in the NES' architecture. Look through the thread. There are multiple examples of where the NES loses on these comparisons on an apples to apples basis with ports or versions of the same game across the 3 systems.

Two problems with this:

 

1) Trying to evaluate a game's quality based on objective metrics is always a dangerous business, because it biases the discussion toward things that can be easily measured, and dismisses the ones that can't. But the ones that can't are often more important, as with Double Dragon: whatever its color count and other quantitative advantages, when I play the SMS version, my basic reaction is being repulsed by the poorly-tuned gameplay and garish use of colors (not to mention the severe flicker of the 2P mode).

 

Gameplay is always the most important thing -- yes, more important than graphics, sound, or anything else -- but because it's difficult to quantify, people focus on the things that are easy to measure. But that's like a doctor ignoring any symptom that his/her tests don't measure well: if the patient says "I feel like shit", a good doctor doesn't say "Well, that's subjective, we only deal with objective things in this office."

 

2) The NES's reputation rests mainly on its exclusives, not its cross-platform titles, and the other systems' competitors to those exclusives simply aren't competitive, IMHO (with a couple exceptions, like Wonder Boy III and Phantasy Star). Whatever merits Alex Kidd and Zillion might have, they don't hold a candle to SMB and Metroid, largely because the gameplay and presentation are second-tier. I don't know of any exclusives on the 7800 that are particularly compelling; Midnight Mutants is OK, but it feels more like a leftover from a previous generation.

 

It's absolutely true that some cross-platform games are better on 7800 and SMS -- no one sane would argue that point. It's also true that, outside of the sound hardware, the SMS is largely superior to the NES; the 7800 is largely inferior, but can do a few things the NES can't. But I don't think anyone's arguing those points; the question is, who cares about any of that if the games aren't there? Technical specs aren't at all predictive of whether I actually want to play a game -- of whether it's a good game or not! -- especially in the 8-bit era.

[78001987]

 

That's fine, but summarily dismissing a library of 700 games (many from some legendary developers and which were the beginnings of legendary franchises) - some of which are hard to deny as technically impressive for the era with or without helper chips - is very hard to take, particularly when you look at what was available on the competition. While the SMS had a decent 300+ title library, the 7800 couldn't even muster anywhere close to 100 7800-specific titles. That's a hard comparison for either - especially the 7800 - to win against the NES. So yeah, not liking the NES is just fine, but I think it's easy to understand why that's not going to be a popular opinion.

But that's just it. The 2600 also has a library of 700+ games as well, and 3/4 of them are utter garbage shovelware. This is the case even more so with the NES, because the NES era ushered in one of the worst trends of modern console gaming - endless sequels. How many different year versions of sports titles, or the same platformer, or scrolling shooter do we really need?

 

If you cut out the unnecessary sequels, junkbox sports games, and just plain unplayable shovelware crap from lower tier developers - it's a much less impressive library.

 

the SMS, for all it's flaws, had a lot of really unique and different games. Sure - it had some really bad games, no doubts there.

 

As for the 7800 - yeah, the library is tiny, and lots of the titles are dated. Most of that is on Atari for their shovelware, and for their management shakeups that tore the company's gaming divisions apart. That sucks. I make no excuses for it, and can't change it.

[Bill Loguidice]

It's hard for me not to agree that the strong-arming may have saved the game industry through the eighties! Imagine if they didn't force exclusivity!? Perhaps there would have been a higher res, higher color, better playing version of every other game ('cept those shiny Nintendo only games) for the Master System, or even a CAPCOM system or a KONAMI system, or *shudder*, a ton of systems that dwindle what would become the NES juggernaut library! It's quite an interesting what if. It makes me happy that the Sega Genesis came along!

 

It's easy enough to argue that if Nintendo didn't do what they did exactly as they did it, console gaming may have had a delayed comeback, or no comeback at all. Getting into stores the way they did (as a robot toy, initially), then setting the standard for the way product was controlled and the console maker was rewarded with a royalty for each game sold, be it first or third party, clearly created a much healthier competitive environment than what preceded it prior to the Crash.

 

It's also important to keep in mind that we're not talking a large number of years that these anti-competitive practices were in place. We're talking roughly late '85 to just about the end of the decade. In retrospect, that's a small price to pay for what may been a necessity to bring the industry into a more sustainable way of doing business. If it's wasn't Nintendo, it likely would have required someone else to enact some heavy handed practices to get things moving in the right direction again.

 

Remember, Nintendo didn't release their first system in the US until late 1985, and not in wide release until 1986. That provided almost a decade for someone else to have established a better way of doing things. They merely filled the vacuum left by past failures.

[BydoEmpire]

 

 

The fact that you seek to discredit any technical, demonstrable differences "other than resolution, # of colors" as if those things don't matter - shows your bias.

LOL, I don't even know what you're claiming I'm biased for or against. I didn't seek to "discredit" any technical differences at all, I clearly mentioned they're a valid way to compare facts about games. You originally said "nearly all "toaster" model NES consoles had significant problems loading games, even during it's original run" was a fact. This seems extremely unlikely, and would be almost impossible to prove given the lack of data around it. If you can provide documentation, it'd be a really interesting bit of video game history.

 

 

demonstrably inferior in pretty much every way to their ports on competing consoles.To rephrase my original reply to hopefully make it more clear. Ask 100 people who have played game X on multiple consoles which version is superior and you'll get some mix of replies varying game-by-game. If you ask those 100 people to look at the specs for those games and circle the console with the higher resolution or most colors in the background, you'll probably get a 100-0 response because they can read. That's the difference. There are numerous hard-to-quantify but equally important aspects of games that would make one game superior to another. Control, difficulty, additional options or modes, art style, gameplay differences, etc. The quantifiable aspects of games - resolutions, colors, flicker, etc - are one aspect, but imho they're not as important as the fun factor (which to me is a result of control, difficulty, gameplay, etc). My point is simply that to say NES versions are "demonstrably inferior in pretty much every way" is to ignore a lot of important ways games can be compared, and it's also a pretty broad statement.

 

 

Now this is not to say everyone isn't entitled to their own opinion of what constitutes "fun". I believe you, in that case - and good on you. You know what you like, and that's fine. But if that's the measurement we're relying on as the be all, end all - then how can my personal non-enjoyment of the NES (based on my own personal experience) be "wrong"? I'm not here telling anyone else their opinion of "fun" with the NES is wrong. It's not.I totally agree. There's no 'wrong' when talking about what we each like and enjoy.

[bretthorror]

I'm just gonna ask this here because I'm sure you guys know the answer... how was Atari able to release Donkey Kong and Mario Bros. for the 7800?

[CatPix]

I can see multiple solutions.

The first that when Atari acquired the Mario Bros and Donkey Kong licences, they had only one console system, and the Atari 8 bits computers. So they might have signed a contract that gave them the right to the games to be released on any system they had, over a period of time, rather than limited it to a number of copies, or on a system, etc...

 

The second being that before the Famicom release in 1983, Nintendo worked with Atari to co-develop a console - from what is know, it would have been the NES, using the MARIA video chip, and maybe POKEY. Atari might have received the rights to release Mario Bros and Donkey Kong when that deal ended.

 

And a thrid option was that Atari acquired the licences in 1984 for the first Atari 7800 release, at a time where Nintendo wasn't sure about selling the Famicom outside of Japan.

[empsolo]

http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/shapiro/exclusivity.pdf

 

It's not hyperbole. NES was threatened with antitrust lawsuits because of their exclusivity contracts. refer to page 676 in the link above.

I was being nice by letting you walk away. But if you insist?

 

Except Nintendo was never actually found guilty when it came to exclusivity contracts. Yes, there are claims made with regards to some sort of case involving the state of NY but that is usually poorly cited and I can never find the case number in question. Furthermore, according to books like Phoenix: the fall and rise of video games, points out that Nintendo had beaten Atari in court when Atari sued Nintendo over a separate matter over third party exclusivity contracts. A case where Howard Lincoln made Sam Tramiel famously take the stand and admit that Atari Corp under Jack Tramiel had been so incompetently run that Atari effectively scared off most non-Japanese third party publishers. Not only that, Nintendo's third party contracts had not forbidden third parties from making games that did not appear on NES for other systems. Howard Lincoln testified to this policy when he was being investigated by the feds and in the lawsuit from Atari.

 

Furthermore, you wanna know how Nintendo's practices weren't illegal? Sega of America's policies for the Genesis were actually much more strict than Nintendo of America's for the NES. The Lawsuit launched by Sega against Accolade for patent infringement notes that among Sega's licensing restrictions was that devs for the Genesis were not allowed to port games or make new games for other consoles. Period.

 

Also, the practices started by Nintendo are stll wth the industry. Timed exclusives and Third Party exclusives are what made or break consoles such as the Playstation. Even today, Microsoft and Sony try thier best to sign as many third party to exclusives as to give their system something unique.

Edited January 15, 2016 by empsolo

[empsolo]

I'm just gonna ask this here because I'm sure you guys know the answer... how was Atari able to release Donkey Kong and Mario Bros. for the 7800?

IIRC, Atari had the lifetime rights to publish Donkey Kong and Mario Bros on a permanent basis as a good faith measure to get Atari to agree to sell the Famicom in the US.

Edited January 15, 2016 by empsolo

[Papa]

I was being nice by letting you walk away. But if you insist?...

 

. ..The Lawsuit launched by Sega against Accolade for patent infringement notes that among Sega's licensing restrictions was that devs for the Genesis were not allowed to port games or make new games for other consoles. Period.

 

How did games like Earthworm Jim, Mortal Kombat (I, II, III, Ultimate), Final Fight, Sunset RIders, NBA Jam, and SOOOOO many other games come out for other systems. I understand that EA had trouble for ripping the security and porting several 16-bit 68000 home computer games (although many of the Genesis versions were arguably better) and this was frowned upon (When SEGA wants you to buy Hang On and someone offers you Road Rash instead, or a flight simulator instead of After Burner II) and legal issues were raised. I was under the impression that the battle over the Nes10 chip between Nintendo and Tengen set the field that ended up siding with EA!?! Was it that SEGA wouldn't let their own titles be ported out, such as Altered Beast, After Burner II, Hang On, Golden Axe, Thunder Blade, etc.? I understand that they wouldn't allow that, but if I am to believe, from what you said, that SEGA didn't allow games licensed for the Genesis to be ported, well, it happened!! It happened in droves. PC games were ported to the Genesis (Earthworm Jim, Blackthorne, and a handful of others). Games were made for SEGA that came out for the SNES a tad later. It would appear that very few companies listened if that was the case. I'm not saying I don't believe you, it just seems like 16-bit exclusivity for games outside of the realm of the parent companies and their regulars (Square on the side of Nintendo, for instance) was somewhat shaky.

[Torr]

Really? Still the arguing? There IS no BEST system, and the NES would be far from it if there were.

 

You can't even quote games like SMB/Zelda/Whatever as being BETTER overall than Sega's hodgepodge of Arcade ports and original games like Alex Kidd and Zillion, or the Atari's constant stream of outdated games.

 

Remember in the UK and Europe the NES sold quite poorly to Sega, and home computers... neither of which had SMB/Zelda/Whatever Nintendo Franchise...

Are you saying they just weren't intelligent enough to know a good game when they saw it?

I hope not, because what it boils down to is different people have different tastes... and in this case the majority of the UK/Europe did NOT want to play Nintendo Franchise games...

And not just people over there... many people in the US, Canada, South America, enjoyed 7800s and Master Systems, and early PC/Apple II games, not caring at ALL that their system couldn't play Zelda or Mario 3.

 

Is really that hard to accept that not everyone likes what you like?

I admit 78001987 is almost like a child that just can't help but make an ass of himself when some says something he doesn't like, but you guys started it by attacking him for claiming he didn't like the NES.

So what? As stated above, MANY people from 1985 to 1995 lived a full 10 years without ever saying or thinking "Man, I WISH I had an NES" or "Mom, Dad, can you PLEEEASE get me an NES for Christmas???" AND were avid video game players.

It's true.

Edited January 16, 2016 by Torr

[Papa]

Really? Still the arguing? There IS no BEST system, and the NES would be far from it if there were.

 

You can't even quote games like SMB/Zelda/Whatever as being BETTER overall than Sega's hodgepodge of Arcade ports and original games like Alex Kidd and Zillion, or the Atari's constant stream of outdated games.

 

Remember in the UK and Europe the NES sold quite poorly to Sega, and home computers... neither of which had SMB/Zelda/Whatever Nintendo Franchise...

Are you saying they just weren't intelligent enough to know a good game when they saw it?

I hope not, because what it boils down to is different people have different tastes... and in this case the majority of the UK/Europe did NOT want to play Nintendo Franchise games...

And not just people over there... many people in the US, Canada, South America, enjoyed 7800s and Master Systems, and early PC/Apple II games, not caring at ALL that their system couldn't play Zelda or Mario 3.

 

Is really that hard to accept that not everyone likes what you like?

I admit 78001987 is almost like a child that just can't help but make an ass of himself when some says something he doesn't like, but you guys started it by attacking him for claiming he didn't like the NES.

So what? As stated above, MANY people from 1985 to 1995 lived a full 10 years without ever saying or thinking "Man, I WISH I had an NES" or "Mom, Dad, can you PLEEEASE get me an NES for Christmas???" AND were avid video game players.

It's true.

 

 

Uh..it's WORST system.

 

I agree with you, though. I always loved my Master System and Genesis over pretty much everything else. I couldn't afford an Amiga at the time but I could get Road Rash and so many other great titles for the Genesis that were otherwise only available on home computers. I played Double Dragon for the 7800 and the Master System and was like, THAT is DOUBLE DRAGON, YESSSS! I watched my mom play Mario and Duck Hunt (did everyone play Duck Hunt right in front of the screen? My step dad was a hunter, so he had to sit as far away as possible...ha haaaaa) while I was in my room playing Safari Hunt (birds turn to cooked..he heeee), Shinobi, Pro Wrestling (the Master System version), Phantasy Star, Hang On, Out Run, and so many other extremely fun Master System games. We mostly rented for the NES and it was the system in the living room. The 7800 and the Master System were in the bedroom getting played A LOT!

[empsolo]

 

How did games like Earthworm Jim, Mortal Kombat (I, II, III, Ultimate), Final Fight, Sunset RIders, NBA Jam, and SOOOOO many other games come out for other systems. I understand that EA had trouble for ripping the security and porting several 16-bit 68000 home computer games (although many of the Genesis versions were arguably better) and this was frowned upon (When SEGA wants you to buy Hang On and someone offers you Road Rash instead, or a flight simulator instead of After Burner II) and legal issues were raised. I was under the impression that the battle over the Nes10 chip between Nintendo and Tengen set the field that ended up siding with EA!?! Was it that SEGA wouldn't let their own titles be ported out, such as Altered Beast, After Burner II, Hang On, Golden Axe, Thunder Blade, etc.? I understand that they wouldn't allow that, but if I am to believe, from what you said, that SEGA didn't allow games licensed for the Genesis to be ported, well, it happened!! It happened in droves. PC games were ported to the Genesis (Earthworm Jim, Blackthorne, and a handful of others). Games were made for SEGA that came out for the SNES a tad later. It would appear that very few companies listened if that was the case. I'm not saying I don't believe you, it just seems like 16-bit exclusivity for games outside of the realm of the parent companies and their regulars (Square on the side of Nintendo, for instance) was somewhat shaky.

Sega V Acclade makes it quite clear that Sega had forbid early Genesis devs from making games for any console:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_v._Accolade

 

"At the time, however, Sega had a licensing deal in place for third-party developers that increased the costs to the developer. According to Accolade co-founder Alan Miller, "One pays them between $10 and $15 per cartridge on top of the real hardware manufacturing costs, so it about doubles the cost of goods to the independent publisher."[3]:381 In addition to this, Sega required that it would be the exclusive publisher of Accolade's games if Accolade were to be licensed, preventing Accolade from releasing its games to other systems.[1][4]"

 

 

It's even listed in the court brief filed by Sega:

http://openjurist.org/977/f2d/1510

 

 

Sega licenses its copyrighted computer code and its "SEGA" trademark to a number of independent developers of computer game software. Those licensees develop and sell Genesis-compatible video games in competition with Sega. Accolade is not and never has been a licensee of Sega. Prior to rendering its own games compatible with the Genesis console, Accolade explored the possibility of entering into a licensing agreement with Sega, but abandoned the effort because the agreement would have required that Sega be the exclusive manufacturer of all games produced by Accolade.

 

As to why many games were multi-plat during the 16-bit era? Sega was forced to drop it's third party restrictions when EA and Accolade threatened to share Genesis hardware tech that they reverse engineered with potential competitors.

Edited January 16, 2016 by empsolo

[bretthorror]

Really? Still the arguing? There IS no BEST system, and the NES would be far from it if there were.

 

You can't even quote games like SMB/Zelda/Whatever as being BETTER overall than Sega's hodgepodge of Arcade ports and original games like Alex Kidd and Zillion, or the Atari's constant stream of outdated games.

 

Remember in the UK and Europe the NES sold quite poorly to Sega, and home computers... neither of which had SMB/Zelda/Whatever Nintendo Franchise...

Are you saying they just weren't intelligent enough to know a good game when they saw it?

I hope not, because what it boils down to is different people have different tastes... and in this case the majority of the UK/Europe did NOT want to play Nintendo Franchise games...

And not just people over there... many people in the US enjoyed 7800s and Master Systems, and early PC/Apple II games, not caring at ALL that their system couldn't play Zelda or Mario 3.

 

Is really that hard to accept that not everyone likes what you like?

I admit 78001987 is almost like a child that just can't help but make an ass of himself when some says something he doesn't like, but you guys started it by attacking him for claiming he didn't like the NES.

So what? As stated above, MANY people from 1985 to 1995 lived a full 10 years without ever saying or thinking "Man, I WISH I had an NES" or "Mom, Dad, can you PLEEEASE get me an NES for Christmas???"

It's true.

 

It's hard not to enjoy a video game system. I imagine if I had to, I could play the 7800 exclusively until I die and have a good time. That's not the point, the point is the NES library stands the test of time, is massive and has stuff for everyone and we have someone over here saying it had poor games. It'd be the same way if someone said the PS2 sucked. It's not even the fact that it's the NES, it's the fact that the games for these systems were so great, anyone who would speak ill of the libraries is obviously full of shit. People will always have an affinity for what they played as a kid and if you choose to just play NES games instead of branching out to SMS, I think that person is doing it wong, but I can understand it. For that person to blast a 700 game library is another story. For that person to defend the 7800's ho-hum library and to blast the NES' is almost blasphemy. Not because the NES is the "cool" retro console, but because it stinks of bullshit. I almost feel like people "hating on" the 7800 here are being backed into a wall to do so, NOT because they don't have fun with the system. I don't take any pleasure in pointing out its drawbacks because, I mean, perfect port or not, Choplifter is still fun on the 7800. The arcade was the arcade, fucking great stuff, but it doesn't really translate as well to home gaming. I do think people look at the NES with rose colored glasses as well, but fuck, it's very easy to do that when there's that much quality around. If the NES sucked ass and was popular, I don't mind people dissing it, like how shitty Transformers movies are but they do well at the box office. The thing is the universal critic and user belief is it was great.

 

I hate Star Wars. No interest in it. I'm not gonna say it's a bad movie. That would be foolish because it's not. This is where art being subjective and objective's line blurs with me. It is subjective, but a person shouldn't be so bullheaded as to lie to themselves about quality of things they don't like. I don't like comic books, I'm in no way ever gonna say the art isn't amazing. It's a matter of respect and being intelligent.

[78001987]

I hate Star Wars. No interest in it. I'm not gonna say it's a bad movie. That would be foolish because it's not. This is where art being subjective and objective's line blurs with me. It is subjective, but a person shouldn't be so bullheaded as to lie to themselves about quality of things they don't like. I don't like comic books, I'm in no way ever gonna say the art isn't amazing. It's a matter of respect and being intelligent.

Except when I stated that I found the NES to be the worst console I have played (not the worst console ever made, just the worst console I have played) - you called me delusional, and fanboy, and several other insults.

 

I didn't even quote or direct my comments at you. You just out of the blue insulted me. So please - cut it out. You're not trying to be intelligent or respectful here.

[+thegoldenband]

Well, let's not forget the second half of that post:

I do love watching NES fanboys flip their lids when someone disagrees with them though. Just because it was popular doesn't mean it was good. Reality TV and Karaoke game shows are incredibly popular now, and that stuff is for morons.

I'm sure you realized that saying things about "fanboys" and "morons" was like waving a red flag at a bull, as it would be if you wrote the same thing about the Atari 2600 (which was popular, and which some people think was crap, and which represents a brand that some people will defend no matter what garbage it put its name on). You don't talk that way unless you relish a fight.

[78001987]

Well, let's not forget the second half of that post:

 

I'm sure you realized that saying things about "fanboys" and "morons" was like waving a red flag at a bull, as it would be if you wrote the same thing about the Atari 2600 (which was popular, and which some people think was crap, and which represents a brand that some people will defend no matter what garbage it put its name on). You don't talk that way unless you relish a fight.

Honestly, it was pretty dumb of me to say that. But even in that, I didn't direct it at anyone here in particular, more the general experience I've had in these kinds of discussions over the years.

 

and I'm willing to bet that even had I not "poked the alligator" with that line, the resultant attacks on my opinion wouldn't have been any less.

Edited January 16, 2016 by 78001987

[+thegoldenband]

Honestly, it was pretty dumb of me to say that. But even in that, I didn't direct it at anyone here in particular, more the general experience I've had in these kinds of discussions over the years.

 

Hey, I appreciate your humility in saying that. Many people wouldn't be willing to admit that.

 

I think if you are (or perceive yourself as being) a member of a group that's being criticized, it's tough for many people not to rise to the bait, even if the criticism isn't specifically directed at you personally.

[Torr]

 

For that person to blast a 700 game library is another story.

 

But the thread isn't "What IS the worst system ever" it is "Whats the worst you've played"

 

Not all of us... actually NONE of us, had a 700 cartridge game collection sitting in the closet and we could hand pick and play the best titles whenever we wanted to.

As I stated in my post about not liking the NES very much as a kid is completely honest, For every one game me and my friends played and liked, we played 3 or 4 that we didn't.

As a child that just left me being happy with my Sega Master System. Where there was only 1 game I played and didn't like... Marksmoon Shooting/Trap Shooting... granted I only played about 20 games total back in those days, but I enjoyed 19 of them.

I also only played roughly 30-40 NES games back then, and only REALLY enjoyed roughly 8-12 of them...

Again, as stated in my post and as the AVGN's schtick is mainly composed of and to paraphrase a quote by him that he's used more than once... "Wasn't it great, when the weekend came, it was friday night, you rented a game, brought it home and it JUST SUCKED!!!!". This was an experience me and my friends had sooo many times.

 

As kids, me and my friends would pull out the box of atari carts (this was circa 1985-1988, so I'm guessing the Crash explained why older siblings/cousins always had a TON of games they were willing to give away; they got a bunch when they were cheap and were now giving them away since they had a newer/'better' system) and the box, be it mine, my friends, whoever, always had 20-30 games and we would sit there playing each and every game for 10-20 minutes then play another and another... never being pissed that one just SUCKED, the worst that happened was we didn't understand it. Then after the 8-bit era came the 16-bit days, I was a Teenager and LOVED the whole Sega VS Nintendo war of the time (I chose Sega Genesis and stayed a "Sega Fanboy" at the time untill moving on to a 486 PC, based soley on my childhood experiences). It was a time when I loved gaming on my Sega Genesis.

 

I loved gaming on my 2600jr, my C64, my SMS, my Genesis, and my PC... gaming on the NES was like buying scratch tickets, it was fun when you struck lucky, but you often felt like you just wasted your money again.

 

Sure, I can look back and say "Yeah, there were MANY good games released for the NES", but when it came to BUYING games back in 88-92, you didn't just go to Walmart and say "OK, I want SMB3, Zelda, MegaMan 2, Etc..." You might not have even known MegaMan existed, let alone ask for it or be on the hunt to buy it. You picked from the 10-20 games they had on the shelf... same when renting... sometimes (and you didn't know it) EVERY game on the shelf was one that today is known as being sub-par or a real stinker, but you picked one, because you wanted something new to play, and then were let down because it was not as good as you were expecting/hoping.

 

*EDIT

 

 

 

 

It's a matter of ... being intelligent.

 

 

So you ARE saying that the majority of the UK and Europe who had no interest in the NES... WERE actually being unintelligent!!!

WOW... You've jumped the shark worse than 78001987 now... you're not just calling out a system's fanbase, but whole NATIONS...

Edited January 16, 2016 by Torr

[bretthorror]

Except when I stated that I found the NES to be the worst console I have played (not the worst console ever made, just the worst console I have played) - you called me delusional, and fanboy, and several other insults.

 

I didn't even quote or direct my comments at you. You just out of the blue insulted me. So please - cut it out. You're not trying to be intelligent or respectful here.

 

You clearly are a delusional fanboy. I won't treat your opinions with respect because of it. You seem like a smart guy, but your fanboy nature makes it so I can't respect your opinion. If you would sit back and say, sure, the NES had amazing games but I prefer the 7800 because you like arcade ports (of which there are better on NES, but we'll put that aside), I would say good for you. But you didn't. You attacked the NES library for every little reason you could because you for some reason hate them and choose to spew bullshit. I love that you love the 7800. I own a 7800, you know? I love Atari, Sega, Nintendo, Xbox, Playstation, Steam. I have no blindness. You do. If the NES is the worst console you've played, you obviously haven't played many systems or have a bias against Nintendo. That, I don't respect. I am the first to shit on NES fanboys for dismissing the SMS or Atari. But you ignore that fact, which makes me respect your opinion less. Because now you are attacking people like me who love it all but will admit that the NES library was better because clearly, it was. If you don't love Excitebike, Punch-Out, Mario, Kirby, etc then, no, I can't take you seriously. I admire and share your Atari enthusiasm but you don't need to prove it by negatively bashing NES. You dig, mon frere? You and I aren't so different except you hate Nintendo for reasons unknown.

 

 

But the thread isn't "What IS the worst system ever" it is "Whats the worst you've played"

 

Not all of us... actually NONE of us, had a 700 cartridge game collection sitting in the closet and we could hand pick and play the best titles whenever we wanted to.

As I stated in my post about not liking the NES very much as a kid is completely honest, For every one game me and my friends played and liked, we played 3 or 4 that we didn't.

As a child that just left me being happy with my Sega Master System. Where there was only 1 game I played and didn't like... Marksmoon Shooting/Trap Shooting... granted I only played about 20 games total back in those days, but I enjoyed 19 of them.

I also only played roughly 30-40 NES games back then, and only REALLY enjoyed roughly 8-12 of them...

Again, as stated in my post and as the AVGN's schtick is mainly composed of and to paraphrase a quote by him that he's used more than once... "Wasn't it great, when the weekend came, it was friday night, you rented a game, brought it home and it JUST SUCKED!!!!". This was an experience me and my friends had sooo many times.

 

As kids, me and my friends would pull out the box of atari carts (this was circa 1985-1988, so I'm guessing the Crash explained why older siblings/cousins always had a TON of games they were willing to give away; they got a bunch when they were cheap and were now giving them away since they had a newer/'better' system) and the box, be it mine, my friends, whoever, always had 20-30 games and we would sit there playing each and every game for 10-20 minutes then play another and another... never being pissed that one just SUCKED, the worst that happened was we didn't understand it. Then after the 8-bit era came the 16-bit days, I was a Teenager and LOVED the whole Sega VS Nintendo war of the time (I chose Sega Genesis and stayed a "Sega Fanboy" at the time untill moving on to a 486 PC, based soley on my childhood experiences). It was a time when I loved gaming on my Sega Genesis.

 

I loved gaming on my 2600jr, my C64, my SMS, my Genesis, and my PC... gaming on the NES was like buying scratch tickets, it was fun when you struck lucky, but you often felt like you just wasted your money again.

 

Sure, I can look back and say "Yeah, there were MANY good games released for the NES", but when it came to BUYING games back in 88-92, you didn't just go to Walmart and say "OK, I want SMB3, Zelda, MegaMan 2, Etc..." You might not have even known MegaMan existed, let alone ask for it or be on the hunt to buy it. You picked from the 10-20 games they had on the shelf... same when renting... sometimes (and you didn't know it) EVERY game on the shelf was one that today is known as being sub-par or a real stinker, but you picked one, because you wanted something new to play, and then were let down because it was not as good as you were expecting/hoping.

 

*EDIT

 

 

 

 

 

So you ARE saying that the majority of the UK and Europe who had no interest in the NES... WERE actually being unintelligent!!!

WOW... You've jumped the shark worse than 78001987 now... you're not just calling out a system's fanbase, but whole NATIONS...

 

I stated in the very post you quoted that anyone could have had a great time with 7800 games, but you chose to omit that to benefit your own argument. It's just not the system you'd choose in comparison for the vast majority of gamers. That's why the NES sold so many more consoles than the rest. I actually asked for a SMS for Christmas when I was 4-5 because my cousin had one. He told my parents to buy me a NES instead because no one was making games for the SMS anymore. He was entirely right and I am thankful my parents listened to him and not me. I am one of the few people who loves the SMS along with the NES so you're barking up the wrong tree. However, I could never disrespect the NES library. You said of the 30-40 games you played, you REALLY enjoyed 12. That's a pretty great track record considering the competition only had about 200 games combined as opposed to the NES library. And you couldn't enjoy 12 7800 exclusives that much because they just don't exist. I love my Sega Master System. I just can't tell you it's better than my NES. It's the ultimate compliment to my NES collection, though. It's unfortunate that we all bought/rented poor games back in the day, but no matter what the NES library title for title outdoes the others. I own nearly ever console from the beginning of video games to the current crop. The last system I bought was a 7800 a couple months ago. Reason being is it didn't offer anything exclusive to make it worth owning, because no one in 2016 can argue it does. I spent $150 (Canadian) to merely TRY a Bally Astrocade when I bought one. I obviously am all for underdog consoles.

 

I told you in the post that you conveniently didn't quote that it's hard not to enjoy a video game system. The popularity of UK PC's lumps right into this. It doesn't necessarily mean they got the best stuff as a whole or that it wasn't amazing. It doesn't even matter that they didn't miss those games because they had a great alternative, but that still means you're demeaning the NES library, which doesn't score you any points. If a retro gamer says the NES library is shit, his opinion is shit. End of story. I never said those PCs had shit libraries or you couldn't have fun with them. In fact, I spoke quite the contrary to that.

 

The common denominator is you and 7800 are picking at people like dicks. Because while you might stab a NES fanboy in the eye, and fuck, I'd encourage it, you also dismiss people like me who defend everything and are just trying to be objective and realistic in the process which doesn't do you any favors. Commodore, Amiga, they all died out for a reason, it's just the truth. It sucks, but looking at things objectively, it happened for a reason.