Coleco Chameleon .... hardware speculations?

[dommie]

Not going to make a video, but i took some quick pictures. Looks like the cut some of the plastic off from inside the shell to make the snes slot be up a bit higher, but im not going to ruin mine to make a better fit. Here is a comparison someone made earlier:

http://atariage.com/forums/topic/247145-coleco-chameleon-hardware-speculations/?p=3439661

 

and my pic:

here is a couple more I took:

http://imgur.com/a/SOhhK

 

 

as you can see, the back sticks out exactly as much as it does in their video, but i did not cover mine in black tape.

 

Wow. All I can say is... WOW.

 

I had a chance to go to the NY toy fair, but decided not to. 3 different people asked me to go, but I figured I'd just stick to E3 this year and skip all the small stuff. I'm regretting that decision. I'm personally friends with one of the guys involved in this (not Mike), so I no doubt would have gotten up close and poked around at their display. One of my sales reps tipped me off that he saw this at toy fair and I was really curious, so naturally I came here. I'm still lagging a few days behind and 20 pages in reading this thread, and can't wait to see how it turns out. This is all just surreal.

[dommie]

I was thinking after I put the jag back together I should have angled it the same. Didn't think about rotating the pic.

 

What everybody wants to know is: can you get the Jag innards into the SNES mini shell?? Then you can call it the Mattel Medusa or something like that.

[ninja_gaiden2015]

 

We've been on steam for a while now! Almost a year!

 

Higan is so well done it will allow us to work on the UI and make it look pretty...ish. SNES9x was a pain and could barely work.

 

-Also for consoles; read the blog I been leaking small bits of info for a project we are working on slowly.

 

 

Thanks for the appreciation, I am trying to be as respectful as possible to the community (transparency to some extent, honesty, etc), so I expect them to reciprocate.

 

Thanks Piko - At least we have another way we can support you guys and the work you do easily if this CC never takes flight!!

[ninja_gaiden2015]

The Coleco Chameleon Interview from Toy Fair (link)

 

Check it out at the 2:45 odd mark, Mike Kennedy talking about the 3rd party wii controller used in the system:

 

..."it still kinda looks classic with the outline of the control pad that we all recognize... So um ..that's kinda why we've chosen it ... they are going to remove, they are re-tooling it. They are removing, of course, a lot of the things that we aren't using, used on this controller.. and for the show, basically, a lot of these [analogue sticks] were disabled and weren't made for these things and it seems like people always wanna start working these [analogue sticks] and start to play the game. So we just thought it would be easier to... we've just hardwired in some SNES kinda uh third party controllers, u to play the game"...

 

Call me a skeptic, but do you really believe that Mike has arranged for the controllers to be "re-tooled" or re-designed? Especially considering how much he harped on about how expensive tooling the console shells was and how he saved so much etc.

 

I thought the CC team were simply screenprinting the logo on the black version of the gamepad, which is a perfectly reasonable and cost effective approach I might add. I wouldn't see anything wrong with simply taking this approach. I own one of these 3rd party pro controllers and don't think that they are as bad as people make them out to be.

 

I just don't see the point in making up tall stories etc. Earlier on in the video Mike says that "the developers, early on wanted these in there" referring to the analogue sticks "because as you know are useful in retro gaming". Making it seem like they designed the controller from the ground up or something. Other than that, there is the bold claim that it is soldered into the system, rather than a snes-mini.

Edited February 17, 2016 by ninja_gaiden2015

[leods]

 

Legend and Jim power have been released before that is why we set up the 5 bucks on digital download.

 

You going to GOG too? Considering These roms can be easily pirated, it's not going DRM free that's going to make anyone pirate your games. I would buy These possibly, but not on Steam.

[jaybird3rd]

That was also my reaction when we first heard the "hard-wired controllers" story:

Does he really expect people to believe that they switched to a completely different controller, with a completely different interface, just because their USB controller's analog sticks aren't working yet with the games? If that's the case, wouldn't it have been easier to just use a different USB controller without analog sticks? Yet another indication that this is nothing but a poorly redressed SNES.

 

I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which this story could actually be true: "We've been touting this third-party Wii U controller as our chosen RVGS/Chameleon controller for months, and we've even got a working USB version, but people always seem to want to play the games with the analog sticks instead of the D-pad (and for some reason we can't reconfigure our prototype console to simply use the analog sticks by default, even though it has an SNES FPGA core which we wrote all by ourselves). There are lots of inexpensive SNES-style PC gamepads (like these) which don't have analog sticks, and it would probably take about ten seconds to swap out the controllers and eliminate the confusion since they're all USB. But we're about to go to Toy Fair, so here's what we'll do instead: let's retrofit our prototype board and add a native SNES controller interface so we can use real third-party SNES controllers. Just plugging in the controllers would be too easy, though, so once we get the controllers, let's chop off the connectors and solder the controller cables directly to the board. Yeah, that'd be much better."

 

EDIT: As SD&R says below, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to add a permanent USB cable to those Wii U controllers. If they already had a MicroUSB port, all you'd need to do is solder in the cable, pull it out through the window at the top, and add a stress relief boot. However, that still doesn't make it any more plausible that they'd switch over to native SNES controllers for their "prototype console" just before Toy Fair. The only feasible way of doing that would be to plug the controllers into a USB adapter of some kind, but that wouldn't agree with their "hard-wired controllers" claim (unless they hard-wired the USB cables, which would be equally stupid and unnecessary).

[StopDrop&Retro]

Actually, I do believe they are re-tooling the controller and you can already see evidence of it. But it's not Mike & Co. doing the re-tooling, it's the Chinese factory.

 

As you can see, the cord is hard wired and comes out the top. This was originally a bluetooth Wii U pro controller and the micro USB in came in through the bottom. Ever since the IndieGoGo campaign they were talking about how the Chinese manufacturer was making it hardwired just for them and this is probably the fruit of their labor.

 

 

Here's what the controller looks in its original configuration:

 

I can't tell if they still have the micro USB hole in the bottom but they do have a strange cut in the cable. But it's probably just a hand built one-off so it's not production perfect. The final changes probably include that and deleting the led indicators, home button and whatever else you don't need on a wired controller. The hard wired USB is a simple modification, really (hell, maybe they just soldered some wires and drilled a hole). They're probably holding off on further mods until they get an order for thousands.

 

 

 

So just to let all the lurking "true, honest friends" be aware, over here we actually do correct each other based on the evidence we're able to find because we're after the facts. If Mike would be honest and back up his claims with facts and evidence of his own we wouldn't have to do this. But nope, those "friends" feel that the best thing they can do is play stupid, help him conceal the facts and pledge blind devotion.

[ninja_gaiden2015]

......

I can't tell if they still have the micro USB hole in the bottom but they do have a strange cut in the cable. But it's probably just a hand built one-off so it's not production perfect. The final changes probably include that and deleting the led indicators, home button and whatever else you don't need on a wired controller. The hard wired USB is a simple modification, really (hell, maybe they just soldered some wires and drilled a hole). They're probably holding off on further mods until they get an order for thousands.

 

 

 

So just to let all the lurking "true, honest friends" be aware, over here we actually do correct each other based on the evidence we're able to find because we're after the facts. If Mike would be honest and back up his claims with facts and evidence of his own we wouldn't have to do this. But nope, those "friends" feel that the best thing they can do is play stupid, help him conceal the facts and pledge blind devotion.

 

Yeah, looks like you are right. I'm not too proud to admit that I might be wrong. It does look like they have simply drilled a hole in the IR section from looking at the video carefully and soldered the cable that was the USB mini. This is a pretty simple mod for anyone with a soldering iron and a bit of understanding.

 

I pulled out my controller and you are right. Forgot that the mini-usb was at the bottom of the pad. It doesn't look like they have "re-tooled" anything as yet on the controller yet, so will have to see if that goes through, as it could from the chinese company.

 

[PlaysWithWolves]

The prototype controller's wire comes out of the top of the unit. Their renders were always of a simplified button layout, though I confess I never really noticed before. Keep in mind it took them months to get it from the company, and we often heard it was on its way. In other words, I think this is one thing they actually have (save for the buttons/LEDs removal). The first pic is just after they received it:

 

 

 

 

[Raticon]

I cant see those small speaker holes on their renders either, those right next to the sticks on the real thing.

[Andromeda Stardust]

I cant see those small speaker holes on their renders either, those right next to the sticks on the real thing.

Software renders are easy to bullshit. Just delete/tweak a few polygons. LEDs and home buttons are now gone from your 3D model...

 

Modifying the actual molds to remove the square posts that create the LED indicator holes, round pegs for the speakers, or making buttons disappear from the plastic entirely will likely leave seams in the mold where the extensions once were. And you've got one shot to make it right, or the molds are trashed.

[Chorne27983]

Software renders are easy to bullshit. Just delete/tweak a few polygons. LEDs and home buttons are now gone from your 3D model...

 

Modifying the actual molds to remove the square posts that create the LED indicator holes, round pegs for the speakers, or making buttons disappear from the plastic entirely will likely leave seams in the mold where the extensions once were. And you've got one shot to make it right, or the molds are trashed.

As a machinist removing the protrusions from the mold to delete features like the led lights and USB plug without leaving seams would take 5 minutes with a die grinder and another 10 to blend out anything that would leave flash/lines on the finished product. Also as long as they make tig welders you have as many chances to modify it as necessary until it's right.

[PlaysWithWolves]

It's pretty safe to say the molds won't be changed (or new ones made) unless it's a successful Kickstarter. If it's successful, the controller company will do whatever it takes, I'm sure.

[rob_ocelot]

Why have buttons removed from the controller (and swap the start/select), other than to provide a convenient place to put your logo?

 

Wouldn't you want at least one button other than the standard PS1 Dual Shock -- one that you can hit at anytime and go back to the main menu to switch games or emulators (note: I didn't say FPGA cores :-) Make it the Coleco logo you hit, just like the X-box and be done with it. No one wants to remember having to hold select+start+Lt trigger to go back to the menu or some other arcane combination.

 

The less the Chinese manufacturer has to retool the mould the cheaper everying will be -- at least, that was the nugget of wisdom imparted when people questioned the use of Jag shells. One reason I can see the manufacturer waiving the cost of retooling is because Mike convinced them they would be getting orders in the millions or something.

[galax]

There are lots of inexpensive SNES-style PC gamepads (like these) which don't have analog sticks, and it would probably take about ten seconds to swap out the controllers and eliminate the confusion since they're all USB. But we're about to go to Toy Fair, so here's what we'll do instead: let's retrofit our prototype board and add a native SNES controller interface so we can use real third-party SNES controllers. .

It is possible that they are using USB controllers that just look exactly like native SNES controllers, those do exist: http://m.aliexpress.com/item/1961434550.html

 

 

Of course I still believe there's a SNES mini under there, but the controllers can't be used as conclusive evidence either way.

[Andromeda Stardust]

It's pretty safe to say the molds won't be changed (or new ones made) unless it's a successful Kickstarter. If it's successful, the controller company will do whatever it takes, I'm sure.

If the KS is successful, I'd like to see what these clowns will produce and pass off as a console. I'm gonna take the "SNES" in a Jag and roll with it for a minute. I imagine they might do a SOAC clone on a custom board. I've seen the sizes of each board in my Super Retro Trio. They could easily do a custom board that fits in the Jag. By using a custom cartridge port, provided enough pins, they could actually combine Genesis and SNES together. Get an edge connector with a ton of pins, say the extended PCIe slot like video cards use or something. MD and SNES could go different pinouts. Genesis games won't use the SNES pins and visa versa. The power bus for each SOAC could be tripped by jumping pins together on the cart to only power on the Genny side or the SNES side. Now the edge card goes into a custom Jag shell of course, but they could pass it off as FPGA by demonstrating that it runs both Genesis and SNES games. And maybe GBA as well. NES is too many pins and current NOACs suck so they won't use it. The Intellivision and Colecovision multicarts would be cheaply transcoded to SNES or Genesis ROMs by a team of Asian hackers. Outsource everything. So you basically get the 16-bit side of the Super Retro Trio, FC3, or Retron3, with proprietary carts. And announce plans to release cart adapters to play original carts through the magic of FPGA several SOAC clones cobbled together with a unified cart connector. But they run out of money shipping KS units, and nobody wants to buy their crappy clone if it won't play old games.

[coleridge]

Is there any good news out of this mess? Will Kevtris make a console? That's where I will vote with my $$$$.

 

I remember meeting Mike (and UKMike and Scott) at a CGE a few years ago. I thought he was a cool dude and I always found myself agreeing with his opinions in their podcast's discussions. I also remember him being one of the first dudes to take spyglasses to flea markets to show the deals he could find. Man, they were cool videos. This whole mess is sad. I think Mike has lost my benefit of the doubt. The bridge is burned.

[Greg2600]

Is there any good news out of this mess? Will Kevtris make a console? That's where I will vote with my $$$$.

 

I remember meeting Mike (and UKMike and Scott) at a CGE a few years ago. I thought he was a cool dude and I always found myself agreeing with his opinions in their podcast's discussions. I also remember him being one of the first dudes to take spyglasses to flea markets to show the deals he could find. Man, they were cool videos. This whole mess is sad. I think Mike has lost my benefit of the doubt. The bridge is burned.

 

honestly the kevtris console is about as ultra niche as this thing (if it's made) will be. Neither serve any unique purpose, and are heavily redundant to what's readily available, not to mention a lot of money.

[PlaysWithWolves]

So, was this a non-starter? Or is it just not published, yet?

 

 

[Schizophretard]

If the KS is successful, I'd like to see what these clowns will produce and pass off as a console.

 

Maybe they would try this?

 

[jaybird3rd]

So, was this a non-starter? Or is it just not published, yet?

Not published yet, most likely. I'm looking forward to it, too!

[galax]

OK got my friend translation, just at the phone like 30mins ago as I was walking outside, nothing in writing so bear with me if it is not 100% as I only remember the gist of it. I know it's only 2 sentences but I'm getting old and memory is not as good as it used to be.

[...]

So whatever they were running at the Toy Fair has high probability of NOT being an FPGA SNES core proper.

Likely as xianaix and elmer pointed out earlier if at all they mean ARM emu + small FPGA for cart pin mapping.

 

Until proven otherwise I still lean towards thinking that at the Toy Fair we saw a SNES mini in haphazard disguise aka Coleco Chameleon "deja vu" Edition (I would have used the Coleco Chameleon RVGS Edition given the heritage but that would have been too much of a double entendre)

 

I had a couple of translations returned to me- I told them nothing about the context, just gave them the tweets. Here they are with yours:

 

First Tweet: どっかの掲示板で「ヤツのSNES FPGAはフェイクか本物か賭けようぜ」ってなってる

T1: They say they have a SNES FPGA. Do you want to bet if it's real or fake?

T2: On some places bulletin board, it said: “Let’s bet whether his (the guy’s) SNES FPGA is fake or real"

T3: On a bulletin board somewhere I saw a line like "Let's have a bet on whether this guy's SNES FPGA is fake or real".

3 minutes later: その掲示板でColeco ChameleonにFPGAが使われててSNESもサポするみたいな感じで書かれてるみたいだけどどうなの（流し読み

T1: The Chameleon claims to have a SNES FPGA, do you believe it?

T2: On that bulletin board, it said: On Coleco Chameleon it used FPGA –it is written as if SNES also supports it; however, I wonder

T3: As they were saying FPGA was used in Coleco Chameleon on that board, I had the impression they were suggesting it also supported SNES, but who knows (read on the rumor mill).

So it really does sound like the person who has made the most complete SNES FPGA implementation that we know of is skeptical that the Coleco Chameleon has an FPGA.

Edited February 17, 2016 by galax

[galax]

Is there any good news out of this mess? Will Kevtris make a console? That's where I will vote with my $$$$.

 

If he doesn't, hopefully he will make some of his cores available (if they are compatible, and either for free or paid) for other FPGA machines that already exist such as the MiST.

[alex_79]

Those circular holes in the plexiglass look a tad on the small side to allow for the hardwired controllers to pass through...
It might just be the perspective, but that controller on the table is pretty close to the plexiglass.

How do they manage to put the console under there?

[bretthorror]

I'm not down at all with a wired controller anyways in this day and age. A large part of the reason I'm tired of older hardware is the controllers aren't wireless and much too short. Hopefully they put a really long cable on it to match today's big screen world.