Coleco Chameleon .... hardware speculations?

[TheRevWells]

Dude has gotta be a POE

 

I know I am a bit old, but some of these acronyms that are thrown out - color me confused? POE? Piece of excellence?

[PlaysWithWolves]

Kinda off topic, but to the one defender on YouTube in regards to the CC, I do wonder if he will make another video about it and still attempt to defend it. Not sure if I can post links to YouTube videos or not, since I am a new member, but his name on YouTube is PartyGameNetwork and the videos are so cringe worthy. Ive wondered if he has come over here and tried to defend it.

 

We've seen them and had fun "debuffing" them. He seems to be pretty small-time, though.

No, I don't believe he's come over here.

[MagnaRyuu]

 

I know I am a bit old, but some of these acronyms that are thrown out - color me confused? POE? Piece of excellence?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

[TheRevWells]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

 

Thanks!

[triverse]

I kinda picture him sitting at home in his underwear, unshaven, empty chinese take out boxes littering his desk, while he scowls at a computer screen, slowly scrolling down this thread, writing down user names...

He is definitely sitting somewhere but it is not at home, unshaven surrounded by empty food containers...

[RupanIII]

 

I'd LOVE to see new games written for older arcade hardware, eg Williams 6809 and running on an FPGA system that was modular so you could hook it up to the display and UI of your choice -- be it a modern HTDV, an older composite/RF TV, or an arcade monitor in a coin-op cabinet with arcade controls. Official support from companies like IREM and Taito would be icing on the cake.

 

That's just me though. I wouldn't mistake my wanting this as everyone else wanting this.

 

Retro Gaming right about now means Pre Polygon Hardware.

So, baring the FX chip, it's about Pixels. Pixel Art style gaming.

This is why alot of Indie games were brought up, more for things like Shovel Knight and Adventures In The Tower Of Flight and other non 3D rendered Indie games.

A high end Pixel/Sprite pusher.

 

That's how the Neo Geo comes in.

 

Again, my idea is it's a Super Neo Geo. You get large cart memories and goto the old arcade manufacturers or IP owners of their stuff. You create Cores for their old arcade hardware systems, and then you sell customers multicarts based on their arcade games, MANY MANY of which never had Home releases or the Home releases, as we all know, didn't quite capture the Arcade's look or feel in the day. Some later games maybe are so big I have to buy one game per cart, but, those needed to be cheaper than any multicart release.

The RetroVGS/Chameleon had/has maybe the potential to be the Neo Geo AES of ALL ARCADE COMPANIES.

That's my gut instinct of the best use of it.

I suppose with a PIxel Art targeted dev kit from Unity that alot of modern Indie games could run on it, but I don't know how memory smart they are and if they'd fit on the hardware.

 

Alright, I've thought about this for a while now. The entire Retro VGS / CC idea just doesn't add up to me. I'm finding it harder and harder to believe that Mike Kennedy is passionate about "retro gaming" at all. I do believe Mike is a collector and he does really like collecting stuff. I don't think that Mike ever wanted to bring back the glory days of the cartridge because he loves them so much. As Triverse said, "Retro Gaming" by definition varies from person to person. What is Retro to me as a thirty year old will be much different than someone older than myself or younger than myself.

 

Mike Kennedy and Steve Woita are how old? Retro gaming to them, should be the Atari VCS, Intellavision, Odyssey 2, Colecovision, etc - that kind of 8 bit gaming. Also, that era of Arcade. If they truly wanted to revive retro, the RVGS / Chameleon would be something based around those consoles. The '64 bit' Jaguar shell and cartridge mold was purchased by Mr. Kennedy because he is a collector. However, why is it that the "16 bit era" is so heavily focused on by the RVGS / CC team? In the Coleco Chameleon sizzle reel, why are Atari 2600 and Colecovision games shown and then a jump to Super Nintendo games? Why was the NES / SMS 8 bit era completely skipped over with zero reference? Also, Mike's era of retro Arcade is totally skipped over during all talks of the RETRO VGS and its campaign. Instead, the only arcade era featured was the NeoGeo. Why?

 

Well, my thoughts are simple. Money. The reasoning behind the RETRO VGS / Coleco Chameleon has been what will generate the most sales and money from the start. There was no passion behind it. Mike picked the biggest money demographic from retro gaming for the Chameleon from the start. He wanted cartridges because you can make a far larger profit return from complete boxed cartridges than you can complete boxed discs. He chose to focus his system on 16 bit super nintendo / genesis style games because they're the most popular and biggest money making area in retro gaming right now. He was obsessed with Neo Geo compatibility because he saw NGDev team's game prices and the potential market share he could have on reeling people in on a cartridge that doesn't cost $400+. Notice that when NG Dev Team pulled out, all talk about Neo Geo stopped with the project. His cash cow left so he seemed to have scrapped the whole idea. As if there were no other Neo Geo games that could be licensed and 'ported' over. My speculation is that NeoBlitz just sat in the dark after the IGG, wondering why they didn't want their game anymore. In my opinion, everything about this console was designed on how to cash in the most on retro gaming.

 

Mike Kennedy even said it in a couple interviews and podcasts. He claimed that he wasn't trying to cash in on "retro" any more than Yacht Club does with Shovel Knight. Mike just wanted to sell nostalgia back to people in cartridge form on his platform.

[+madman]

Again, my idea is it's a Super Neo Geo. You get large cart memories and goto the old arcade manufacturers or IP owners of their stuff. You create Cores for their old arcade hardware systems, and then you sell customers multicarts based on their arcade games, MANY MANY of which never had Home releases or the Home releases, as we all know, didn't quite capture the Arcade's look or feel in the day. Some later games maybe are so big I have to buy one game per cart, but, those needed to be cheaper than any multicart release.

Or you just use MAME, or buy a Pandora's Box JAMMA board and call it a day. All without having to invest time in developing FPGA cores and getting the proper licensing.

[RupanIII]

Yes, we have been looking forward to PGN Blowing Our Balls Off and then Debuffing stuff, or whatever he does.

Kinda off topic, but to the one defender on YouTube in regards to the CC, I do wonder if he will make another video about it and still attempt to defend it. Not sure if I can post links to YouTube videos or not, since I am a new member, but his name on YouTube is PartyGameNetwork and the videos are so cringe worthy. Ive wondered if he has come over here and tried to defend it. Even out of this fiasco, at least for me, some amazing things came out - got to learn about Piko Interactive and the projects they have done and are a part of. Eli seems like a great guy and if I had the cash, I would buy some of his products and he loves action figures as well as me. Got a nice collection of some older ones and looking to get rid of them because I got a bit too many, so Eli, message me if you want and I can send pictures to you and yes, they are all in the package. Got to learn about a new blog, at least for me from Triverse - great stuff and loved the interview with John Carlsen.

[RupanIII]

Yeah, there was a part long ago where people paid the people who owned and created things for their work all legal like and stuff. I know it was Pre-Internet, but, hey, it's still an idea.

The topic is what could you do with the FPGA based system. Otherwise, yeah, The Internet, it's there, we know. I've mentioned the Pandora's Box 3 myself before.
Go ahead and put that thing on a retail shelf and let a parent buy it for their kid... it ain't gonna do a damned thing when it gets home.

Or you just use MAME, or buy a Pandora's Box JAMMA board and call it a day. All without having to invest time in developing FPGA cores and getting the proper licensing.

[+madman]

I've mentioned the Pandora's Box 3 myself before.

Go ahead and put that thing on a retail shelf and let a parent buy it for their kid... it ain't gonna do a damned thing when it gets home.

If there's one thing retail stores and kids in 2016 want, it's games from 30 years ago. Brilliant plan for a new console. What could go wrong? Time to get rich!! Simple as that.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I know I am a bit old...

Hm, I must be dead then...

[RupanIII]

Agreed. Literally A Greed, lol. True. The demographic isn't the kids, but, that's why I suggested a rework a few pages back that's an Android Box with an overengineered FLASH CARTRIDGE that stores the games and account data that kids could take their modern android and retro games with them to friends houses and plug in there as a different idea.

Get the controller less touchscreen games on a tv box android machine with a dedicated controller.

If there's one thing retail stores and kids in 2016 want, it's games from 30 years ago. Brilliant plan for a new console. What could go wrong? Time to get rich!! Simple as that.

Hey guys and gals, I have a question for ya.

I spent many years at Gamestop/Software Etc. From the exit from bankruptcy to 2003.

So, i really remember how those customers are.

I was re thinking the whole idea of this machine and was wondering if this made some sense.

So, how about a Coleco TV box, an ARM Android box for sure. BUT...

it has a well engineered, maybe over engineered, FLASH Cartridge built for maximal durability.
The cart can be authenticated to the home machine the first time it is plugged in, and it can be authorized by password or NFC on a friend's machine.

If the cart is lost, whooosh, Mom/Dad disables the cart, buys a new cart, and simply runs a restore from the Coleco TV servers.

It can also have access to the Play store i guess.

Give it some decent hardware... 4K capable HDMI for streaming 4K, a quad 64bit or 8 core big little chip, and most importantly Apple A6X class graphics (Power VR whatever).
3-4GB ram makes it last well for a few years. And, ofcourse NFC.
Not sure about the controllers, something much like the XBO/360 PC variants.
The machine has the NFC chip in it.

I see Amazon builds close to this for not so much money, but they are huge ofcourse.

Does anyone have thoughts, for kids use, on the idea of that Flash custom cart. It's durable, it has lots of room to breathe so fast access doesn't heat it up so bad etc... it travels safely, and its large enough to stay on the kids mind, unlike how some DS games go missing.

Anybody?

EDIT: NFC could be used on a smartphone or tablet remotely to authenticate the cart on the friend's system, that was how NFC would do it.

 

Edited March 6, 2016 by RupanIII

[Thomas Jentzsch]

If there's one thing retail stores and kids in 2016 want, it's games from 30 years ago. Brilliant plan for a new console. What could go wrong? Time to get rich!! Simple as that.

No, 50 year old want to put that new console sealed into a closet and open it at their 100th birthday. That's the plan!

[Reaperman]

ASICs for NES, Genesis, and SNES are inexpensive enough and nearly perfect. Throwing one on to a cart and having a "system" that basically just handles input and output wouldn't be the most terrible idea. XavixPort did it, and it wasn't all that bad... The system wouldn't go obsolete, granted it would probably never be cutting edge, since cart cost is a factor. In that way, it'd be kind of like a supergun for plug-and-play tv games. Naturally a cart adapter wouldn't be the hardest thing to add later, if they must.

 

Then the FPGAing is left to the folks pushing the 'core' envelope on the system's dev boards. We don't call them 'cores' anymore with asics, do we?

Because of the 'big three' ASICs, a lot of those games would be available on better systems that people already have, but there's no technical reason these carts would have to limit themselves to the specs of those 90's systems.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Reaperman

[+madman]

ASICs for NES, Genesis, and SNES are inexpensive enough and nearly perfect. Throwing them on to a cart and having a "system" that basically just handles input and output wouldn't be the most terrible idea. XavixPort did it, and it wasn't all that bad... The system wouldn't go obsolete, granted it would probably never be cutting edge, since cart cost is a factor. In that way, it'd be kind of like a supergun for plug-and-play tv games. Naturally a cart adapter wouldn't be the hardest thing to add later, if they must.

 

Then the FPGAing is left to the folks pushing the 'core' envelope with their dev boards. We don't call them 'cores' anymore with asics, do we?

Because of the 'big three' ASICs, a lot of the games would be available on better systems that people already have, but that's just for those systems.

I think you've just discovered a way to bring carts back! Maybe get a big name from the 80's on board as well? Surely this idea will take off and this thread is proof of how viable this concept is.

[roland p]

The computer-in-a-cart idea is not so bad indeed. You could have the flashback systems in seperate carts.

 

The system itself would be really simple, and you don't have the clutter that multiple flashback systems would have.

[+Random Terrain]

I think you've just discovered a way to bring carts back! Maybe get a big name from the 80's on board as well? Surely this idea will take off and this thread is proof of how viable this concept is.

 

To be serious for a moment, cartridges will come back. They'll be skinnier than the carts from the 1980s, but they'll still be called carts. No more spinning discs. They'll also hold more data than Blu-ray discs.

[InnovaX5]

 

To be serious for a moment, cartridges will come back. They'll be skinnier than the carts from the 1980s, but they'll still be called carts. No more spinning discs. They'll also hold more data than Blu-ray discs.

We can call these 'cartridges' "Micro SD Cards"

[phoenixdownita]

 

To be serious for a moment, cartridges will come back. They'll be skinnier than the carts from the 1980s, but they'll still be called carts. No more spinning discs. They'll also hold more data than Blu-ray discs.

You can argue they are already here in the M.2 format for SSDs. Given they support a whole PCIe 3.0 up to 4 lanes, speed/bandwidth is not exactly a factor at max ~1GB/sec per lane.

[Reaperman]

I think you've just discovered a way to bring carts back! Maybe get a big name from the 80's on board as well? Surely this idea will take off and this thread is proof of how viable this concept is.

 

Don't worry, once I get Tiger electronics to license me the rights to call it the "Game.com RETRO-active," I'll be exactly as close to releasing my system as Mike is. I'll even make sure to regularly insult my customer base in true game.com style.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp460zM_PGA

Edited March 6, 2016 by Reaperman

[InnovaX5]

 

Don't worry, once I get Tiger electronics to license me the rights to call it the "Game.com RETRO-active," I'll be exactly as close to releasing my system as Mike is. I'll even make sure to insult my customer base in true game.com/coleco style.

 

I don't know Reaperman...the Game.Com had a jack for a modem and it had a touch screen and TWO cartridge ports and and oh GOD IT'S PERFECT! The Tiger Retro.Com is coming!!!

[phoenixdownita]

My money's on janus

Just because there is an "anus" in Janus doesn't make him/her an axxhole in this whole story ..... wait ... it kind does, doesn't it? ... nevermind ... stupid joke.

[fultonbot]

Carts never went away.
If you use a GB/GBC/GBA/DC/DSi/3DS/New 3DS then you have never known a video game era *without* cartridges.

[rob_ocelot]

No, 50 year old want to put that new console sealed into a closet and open it at their 100th birthday. That's the plan!

 

I never really understood just what the big deal was about the console and cartridges still working in 50 years. Do people really expect display technology to be compatible? Do you expect the same kinds of financial value placed on old consoles that we do now? Would your grand- or greatgrandkids even care about this stuff?

 

A lot can change in 50 years. You can fit the entire history of the console market in that.

 

Ikea used to make a computer desk called the 'Jerker' (and I'm sure the designer was having a bit of a larf when he named it). The second version of the desk is the Best Damn Desk Ever. Solid, useful, can be configured multiple ways for a multitude of uses unrelated to computers. Practically indestructible too. People into making music still rave about the desk to this day becuase it could easily bear the weight of heavy keyboards and mixing consles. There was a shrine website to this desk at one point.

 

And then Ikea discontinued it.

 

Why? Because it was too good. People only had to buy it once and they never returned to buy another one. Sure, add on accessories sold but the markup was just not the same as the desk. Ikea replaced the desk with a similar looking but nowhere near as sturdy desk. In fact, the replacement (Gallant, ISTR the name was) would fall apart within a year or two -- and that's exactly what Ikea was hoping... there was a 50% chance you might come back in and buy a replacement versus a 5% chance you might come back if your Jerker broke.

 

The problem for the Chameleon (or any new retro console) is market saturation. Once the OCD completists, cartridge hoarders and speculators buy your system where do you go from there?

 

Maybe Piko or Collectorvision can give us a rough idea how much of a market there is for retro catridges. If someone is making a full time living by producing retro catridges I have yet to hear it -- almost without exception these people have day jobs in addition to their side business. I haven't even mentioned things like the Flashbacks eating into your pie. If these things (and all things retro) are selling like gangbusters you'd think you'd see more big fish in the industry throwing their hats into the ring in a big way.

 

Pixelated 2D graphics are not a trend. They are a fad. Fads come and go and get revived approximately once per generation, give or take. Flared jeans, high-top sneakers, capri pants, clogs. These things keep coming and going like clockwork. The fashion world (at least the marketing end of it) will keep shoving these down our throats till the end of time.

 

Mike made the #1 classic marketing mistake: He assumed his needs were universal. "I want a new retro system with cartridges" became "Everyone's going to want this" quite quickly.

Edited March 6, 2016 by rob_ocelot

[kevtris]

Well they did, ahem, manage to show the "actual output of our printed circuit board design" as part of the Indiegogo campaign:

 

RVGS_indiegogo_pcb.png

 

I'm not sure about the exact timing of when you were talking to John, but you (and perhaps future RVGS/CC archaeologists) may be interested by this short talk he gave about the RVGS at Commodore Vegas Expo v11 2015 - July 18-19 (RVGS info starts at 5:50) :

Some key points:

5:53 "I feel like I've really lucked out on this one earlier this year"

6:30 "[Mike] managed to buy the tooling and mechanical design for this old system"

7:50 "Kickstarter within the next few weeks"

8:15 Acts confused and flustered: "[how much RAM] on the FPGA? Goodness, let me try and remember that, it's about 3/4 of a GB attached to the FPGA. I say about, it's actually a little bit more, because there are actually 3 banks of RAM attached to the FPGA allowing us to do various different functions, there's 1MB of SRAM that we use, mostly it's just a DMA buffer, so we can use the FPGA to automatically get a lot of the information off the cartridge, and we're looking at some fairly substantial cartridge sizes on there as well"

9:00 "One of the mandates on our design is that we have to make this for this really hard use case where we basically play with the system and shove it in a closet for 50 years and it still has to work when you pull it out of the closet. And so we can't use a lot of the cheap commodity flash memories because those are good for maybe 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. We're using premium flash memory that's got a thick oxide tunnel window and that's rated for 100 year data retention."

9:40 [question: internal expansion bus?] "Yes and no, there's of course the exposed cartridge bus, I'm trying to make that as open and freely accessible as possible. Right now I'm pushing to have the FPGA on a separate board that will attach with a couple of connectors so if you wanted to stick something on the bus you just pop it between the FPGA and the main board"

 

 

 

As Mike said before about the decision to use the Cyclone V (5 minutes into the SegaNerds Toy Fair interview), they probably decided on a 6-layer board because Kevtris had mentioned it.

 

Yeah I saw that cardboard circuit board later when everyone else saw it. That was between the last time I talked to them and before Mike blew off our last meeting. I never saw a single thing (either a picture, video, or written spec or written *anything*) out of them during our discussions. That was kind of a red flag for me; I fully expected SOME kind of spec to be written at that "late" <cough> stage. Even on the most mundane project, I will write a spec before starting because just going without a spec leads to lots of dead ends and poor code.

 

On inspection of that PCB, I am not sure how good/complete that board is. It seems to be missing a lot of key parts like power supplies and video hardware. There is a power supplyish looking section, but the inductors/caps appear to be too small. I was guessing that chip was the SoC from TI they were talking about. Also, I am not sure why he would've designed it in that trapezoid shape vs. a rectangular one. I know it's just a render from altium but it doesn't show any traces and it seems to be missing a bunch of stuff, or it's laid out really funny (i.e. DACs on the bottom vs. the top where the connectors are) If they were serious about a proto they could've had a non-working mechanical 2 layer version of it made by sending the top/bottom layers to a fab. The board would look "real" and been great for a mechanical sample. You could even solder parts to it. The cost would've been $60-$150ish depending on which fab they used and how many samples they wanted. If you're going to ask for nearly $2M in a crowdfunding campaign, then at least stump up $150 to make a serious looking sample/prototype PCB.

 

As for the CBM doodad I didn't know he worked on that. That's the first tangible thing I've seen. <reads more of thread> Ah looks like he just replicated an existing design? Anyways that's a lot better than I was expecting.