If Atari would have

[high voltage]

 

 

No. Both the Famicom (1983 - 2003) and SMS (1985 to present - it's still actively being manufactured and sold in Brazil) are longer.

Wow, the SMS is still going? 31 years. That is so cool.

Edited April 7, 2016 by high voltage

[Professor Gull]

Lots of good points there and I for one don't believe in that Seal deal making any difference either I was just curious on opinion for that.

 

Back in the day I as one of those people who bought the 7800 over the NES cause I could play new games and all my old games so why not.

 

It was just sad to see Atari fall after so many years of ruling the market but to be fair their part I think helped push consoles into the world (yeah I know brown box started it) for everyone to enjoy.

[KreatorKat]

I didn't own an NES, so maybe someone who did can tell me, did a game having or not having the seal actually affect your decision to buy it? I know there were relatively few unlicensed NES games compared to the 2600, but the Tengen games are generally high quality. Did anyone genuinely pass on RBI Baseball and Gauntlet just because they didn't have the seal?

 

Every game Tengen produced was illegal. They falsely alleged that they had a case against Nintendo that would allow them to see the copyrighted NES lockout chip program. They used that information to make their unlicensed games. Aside from them, pretty much every game released was from a Nintendo Licensed company. The "nintendo seal of quality" just denoted a game produced legally under Nintendo's program; they did not turn down games unless they broke one of Nintendo's rules, i.e. no religion, excess violence, companies can only make 5 games a year, etc.

 

This amazing video explains the whole thing in great detail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLA_d9q6ySs

Edited April 7, 2016 by KreatorKat

[+KaeruYojimbo]

I wasn't asking about the legality of Tengen's games, just whether not having the Nintendo seal affected anyone's perceptions of them being good games or not since a theoretical Atari seal of quality would have been nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

[high voltage]

We had this in another issue here already.
If I buy a game from Codemasters for my C64 it is officially released for the machine.

If I buy a Codemasters game for the NES it is not official?

BULL.

 

 

BTW Codemasters won against Nintendo wrong doings (Yes, Nintendo was wrong, not the software companies)

Just read Game Over there it is explained how wrong Nintendo worked in the USA.

Edited April 7, 2016 by high voltage

[high voltage]

I wasn't asking about the legality of Tengen's games, just whether not having the Nintendo seal affected anyone's perceptions of them being good games or not since a theoretical Atari seal of quality would have been nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

it had nothing to do with the quality of Nintendo games, see Friday the 13th, Back to the future, Taboo The 6th sense and many more rubbish.

Edited April 7, 2016 by high voltage

[+KaeruYojimbo]

it had nothing to do with the quality of Nintendo games, see Friday the 13th, Back to the future, Taboo The 6th sense and many more rubbish.

 

I know the seal just means the game was manufactured by Nintendo through their licensing agreement and has nothing to do with the quality of the game. I'm just curious, as someone who never bought NES games, if seeing the seal (or not seeing it on Tengen releases) meant anything to kids in the game aisle at the time. Or if it was something that was even noticed.

[toiletunes]

The seal never registered in my head

[+save2600]

Never gave two shits about the Nintendo seal BITD. Knew what it was all about back then... politics of the game industry.

[DanOliver]

The market being too saturated was an issue, and what I generally think the problem was. But maybe that was symptom. When I look at movies, books, music there's a ton of really bad stuff, lots of product goes unsold and sent to landfills, but those industries survive just fine. So maybe more interesting to speculate on why would a saturated market cause a crash...or really, was the market actually saturated.

 

The crash may have happened more because of the sudden drop in profit margin. The industry was certainly unprepared to handle that and may not if have wanted to go on at a lower profit margin.

 

This isn't too cool to say, but from what I saw at the time, Atari and other smaller companies I dealt with, and inside stories I heard (true or not), the primary motivation was always cash. I mean most programmers were pretty serious about trying to make a good game, but chasing cash was always #1 priority. Game deadlines were driven by the Xmas selling season, or to fund the company, or other cash requirements.

 

I think originally Nolan thought video games would be a successful product, but the profit margins turned out to be crazy good. That opened the flood gates to opportunists, profiteers...myself included. I think Warner came in primarily because of the profit margins. And the CEOs and management that came with that focused on making cash and few seem to care even what a game was.

 

As soon as profit margins took a hit almost everyone headed for the doors. Why stay if you're only there for there for the high profit margins. There wasn't a lot of effort that I could see to make better games...well, I mean hit games. I think it's the hits that keep the movie, book and music industries going. And today I think that's true for games too. There's a gut of bad games today if you include online, phone, etc... and lots of free games. Yet the game industry is strong. In all those industries I think cash is still king but there's an understanding that hits drive the cash. So there's a lot more effort into trying to make hits but also in how the marketing channel is handled. Straight to video type stuff that moves crappy products very quickly out of the main channel so a smaller number of prime products is mainly on front of the public's face.

 

In our defense the concept of games being an important entertainment product came on very fast and was new. We didn't really have enough time to understand what games were, or how important they'd be The concept the games were art came much later at least broadly speaking.

 

IMO it was the people in the industry at that time that caused the crash. There's no way (Warner) Atari could have ever produced a new kick ass console. That would risk every dime the company had and would lose money initially. That's what it takes. That's a risk Atari management could never understand. They knew how to make toasters. Games...no clue. That kind of business crashes when the profit margin falls. Saturation, crappy games, etc.. symptoms. If it hadn't been those things it would have gotten screwed up another way. Jay Miner leaving kind of says it all.

 

The Tramiels had no love of games, so same deal.

 

The Atari coin-op people were way more serious about their games. They could have produced a kick ass console...BUT I don't think they really considered that market to be "real" so I don't think they would have actually taken on the task. And maybe creating a console would just be too far removed from their experience.

 

So, as others have already said, I also don't think a few games caused the crash. But, on the other hand if there had been more focus on creating hit games, a better understanding of the sales channel, maybe things could have been different. But really by Pac Man's time Atari should have had the next killer console ready. Pac Man should have come out on that console. For the resources Atari had they should have developed hardware that would have been crazy advanced. But they didn't. I don't think they could have.

[fultonbot]

If it was purely up to me, as a kid in 1982, then absolutely, *yes*, Pac-Man was a major factor in Atari's demise. I hated it. My friends hated it. Pac-Man became a reason to make-fun of Atari, the VCS, etc. Among my group of friends, Atari lost it's "cool" factor because Pac-Man was such a dog. Before Pac-Man, I never thought twice about my purchase of an Atari VCS game. I was not happy with some of them, but at the store it was never an issue. Pac-Man helped make me into a 12 year old contentious consumer.

 

My bible at the time (like many others) was Electronic Games magazine. I recall that the tenor about the VCS completely changed after Pac-Man was released. I recall that they stopped giving Atari VCS games easy reviews, but became far more critical. Recently I wanted to know if this was true, so I went back and scoured all the reviews of Atari 2600 games in the pages of EG and Arcade Alley prior to the release on Pac-Man. What I found was that the review of Pac-Man turned the burgeoning video game press from "enthusiasts" into "critics". Prior to Pac-Man, nearly every game was "reviewed" by listing the good qualities almost like they were arguing for the existence of video games as hobby, and not trying to critically review anything.

 

Here are a few examples from Arcade Alley

 

• January 1981 Issue: "Night Driver": "Arcaders who love driving games will be glued to wheel for this home version"

• June 1981 Issue: "Slot Racers": "ranks as the most important of the classic labyrinth games"

• June 1981 Issue: "Maze Craze: "If you like mazes you'll go crazy of Maze Craze"

• July 1981 Issue: "Championship Soccer": "This one's relentless action, it's spare yet effective graphics and the unusual myriad of options make this an outstanding team sports cartridge"

 

However, Pac-Man marked a total sea-change in how games were reviewed. Here is how they described it in the June 1982 issue of EG:

 

""It's disappointingly difficult to find anything positive to say about this game. Considering the anticipation and considerable time the Atari designers had to work on it, it's astonishing to see a home version of a classic arcade contest so devoid of what gave the original its charm."

 

In essence, Pac-Man helped create the critical press for video games. I remember reading that review and thinking that they had to be wrong. So I still bought the game because I trusted Atari. To me, the game was dreadful and I realized EG was correct. I started to trust EG far more than Atari at that point. Atari's marketing could no longer win by default.

 

Did Pac-Man directly lead to the demise of Atari? Probably not. Was Pac-Man one of hands shoving Atari towards the edge of the cliff: yeah, I'm pretty sure it was one of them.

[Professor Gull]

 

 

Did Pac-Man directly lead to the demise of Atari? Probably not. Was Pac-Man one of hands shoving Atari towards the edge of the cliff: yeah, I'm pretty sure it was one of them.

 

 

See and I wonder if the publication syndicates helped push more crap to be noticed. Like the entertainment industry and even today you get a company that says " Our game is awesome " and then they hire their own staff to review it or buy off folks to make it shine even though it may be a big pile of poo. So back in the 80's was there lots of real reviews on games? And once real reviews became a thing did that have a positive factor as well as a negative?

[fultonbot]

 

 

Did Pac-Man directly lead to the demise of Atari? Probably not. Was Pac-Man one of hands shoving Atari towards the edge of the cliff: yeah, I'm pretty sure it was one of them.

 

 

See and I wonder if the publication syndicates helped push more crap to be noticed. Like the entertainment industry and even today you get a company that says " Our game is awesome " and then they hire their own staff to review it or buy off folks to make it shine even though it may be a big pile of poo. So back in the 80's was there lots of real reviews on games? And once real reviews became a thing did that have a positive factor as well as a negative?

 

 

As far as I can tell from reading everything I can find, that EG Review of Pac-Man was the first real, mainstream "bad" review of an Atari game. I've tried to find as many sources as possible, but I'm sure I missed things, but from what I can find, real video game "criticism" started on May 11th, 1982 (the day that issue was published), and it was focused on Pac-Man. Certainly was negative for marketing departments which could no longer just add Don Knotts to a commercial and think it would make-up for a bad game.

Edited April 18, 2016 by fultonbot

[empsolo]

Pac-Man was a million seller.

 

Crash of 1984 would've come anyway, the VCS (1977) had run its course, 3rd Gen consoles like Coleco and Vectrex didn't really take off, computers started to take over as the relevant gaming format.

 

But think about it this way, Coleco, Vectrex, and others died after the 84 crash, Atari survived.

 

 

The VCS ran until 1992, which is the longest lasting console in history. And in had excellent releases under Tramiel. In USA the JR was the second best selling console in late the 80s.

 

 

.

Atari didn't survive the 83 crash. It was broken up and sold off by Warner with Atari Inc effectively closed down permanently.

[empsolo]

Double post

Edited April 18, 2016 by empsolo

[empsolo]

I wasn't asking about the legality of Tengen's games, just whether not having the Nintendo seal affected anyone's perceptions of them being good games or not since a theoretical Atari seal of quality would have been nothing more than a marketing gimmick.

Let's put it this way. All Nintendo licensed games actually run as they were intended to regardless of design or difficulty. The same can't be said for third parties shoveling out VCS games that wouldn't even start.

[Professor Gull]

Let's put it this way. All Nintendo licensed games actually run as they were intended to regardless of design or difficulty. The same can't be said for third parties shoveling out VCS games that wouldn't even start.

 

I know there was lots of talk also about the 7800 coming out too late and once again not too many titles released for it either let alone games that were broken as well. Would the expansion port put into some of the 7800's possibly breathed back a bit of life? I thought those were for laser disc players but nothing was officially done if that is right.

[WildBillTX]

However, Pac-Man marked a total sea-change in how games were reviewed. Here is how they described it in the June 1982 issue of EG:

 

""It's disappointingly difficult to find anything positive to say about this game. Considering the anticipation and considerable time the Atari designers had to work on it, it's astonishing to see a home version of a classic arcade contest so devoid of what gave the original its charm."

 

In essence, Pac-Man helped create the critical press for video games. I remember reading that review and thinking that they had to be wrong. So I still bought the game because I trusted Atari. To me, the game was dreadful and I realized EG was correct. I started to trust EG far more than Atari at that point. Atari's marketing could no longer win by default.

 

Did Pac-Man directly lead to the demise of Atari? Probably not. Was Pac-Man one of hands shoving Atari towards the edge of the cliff: yeah, I'm pretty sure it was one of them.

 

I agree, it was a big shock to read that review in EG after a year of positive reviews. Pac-Man's badness also help start word-of-mouth among the gaming community (aka "dont buy that game, it sucks").

 

A better programmed Pac-Man (like Ms Pac Man was) would have helped keep sales for the 2600 going for another year or two. I but I dont think it would have kept the 2600 from losing fans to home computers and newer consoles. That the 5200 never took off may have been the biggest mistake Atari ever made.

[empsolo]

I know there was lots of talk also about the 7800 coming out too late and once again not too many titles released for it either let alone games that were broken as well. Would the expansion port put into some of the 7800's possibly breathed back a bit of life? I thought those were for laser disc players but nothing was officially done if that is right.

I still don't why people cling to the 7800 expansion port as a system saver. The idea of a $2000 add on to the 7800 is quite frankly bizarre. Anybody with some iota of common sense would see why it was axed almost immediately.

[Hydro Thunder]

This is just one consumer's example, but I (and my parents) were huge Atari spenders having converted from our beloved Odyssey 2. We bought game after game after game. And the gradual decline in quality punctuated by ET was definitely a major factor in us stopping buying any games and either going exclusively to arcades or backing out of video gaming entirely (or just playing the unholy hell out of Seaquest for the millionth time ).

 

The third party games (and the whole business of Nintendo's legal claim / marketing scam known as their Seal of Approval, all of which was nonsense to me) never really factored; I think we had one third party game that was a dud, so we mostly stuck to bigger, more well known games. Pac-Man looked like hell but frankly we had a fair bit of fun with that, warts and all. If anything, it just made the 5200 system and game look a whole lot more appealing, so I wouldn't say for me personally Pac-Man was at all a negative to my game buying.

 

ET on the other hand was a hugely marketed game, and whether or not our game purchasing logic was sound at all (hah!), we thought we had good reason to believe it would at least be fun. And it wasn't. It was many steps backwards in every way from every other game we had, and it really made us sad about the money we'd spent, and we lost faith in Atari and games. We couldn't even find a way to enjoy it. I mean, 2600 Defender just looks -awful- IMO, but we fought through it and it became quite enjoyable. ET wasn't like that; it didn't even make sense and it looked basically like a bunch of blocks making stupid noises.

 

And no, I would not say that any one game or factor caused the entire crash. But for me, ET was definitely the main thing, and Pac-Man was definitely not. Hell, for Pac-Man, they really redeemed things with Ms Pac-Man and that's all we needed to have fun & get our Pac on.

[WildBillTX]

 

 

No. Both the Famicom (1983 - 2003) and SMS (1985 to present - it's still actively being manufactured and sold in Brazil) are longer.

 

Is the Brazilian SMS being made by Nintendo? Otherwise all these new Famicon, SMS, NES and SNES consoles I've seen are clone systems like the Retron 5.

[Nebulon]

It wouldn't have made any difference.

 

The entire industry was already on the way out.

 

Time was needed to allow for an adjustment and recovery.

[fultonbot]

 

And no, I would not say that any one game or factor caused the entire crash. But for me, ET was definitely the main thing, and Pac-Man was definitely not. Hell, for Pac-Man, they really redeemed things with Ms Pac-Man and that's all we needed to have fun & get our Pac on.

 

Ms. Pac-Man was one of my favorite VCS games. It came out just a year or so after Pac-Man, but the damage was already done. I could convince none of my friends that it was a good game. The zeitgeist was on the Vectrex, Commodore 64, Colecovision, and the fact that you could pick-up 2600 games for $5 each at the discount stores. Heck, I recall a sale at Target in the summer of 1983 where they cut-open shipping boxes of 70's Atari VCS games (Street Racer, Video Olympics, Blackjack, Slot Racers) and sold them for $2 each.

[Professor Gull]

I know Atari also did computers so why did they not continue with those as a household ad on? I know they were pricey back then but could that part of their business created more success? Comparatively with IBM and Apple at the time I wonder if they could have held on better with that portion. So long as they did not call it the Atari "Pac" computer.

[Retro Rogue]

Is the Brazilian SMS being made by Nintendo? Otherwise all these new Famicon, SMS, NES and SNES consoles I've seen are clone systems like the Retron 5.

I think you mean SEGA, and no it's not a clone system. They're by Tectoy, SEGA's licensed representative there since the late 80s. There are clone manufacturers down there as well, because it's still a big market for the console and its games that's been continuous since then. Not a Retron5 clone aftermarket thing.

 

You can read more about it here:

 

http://tedium.co/2015/07/16/sega-master-system-brazil/

Edited April 18, 2016 by Retro Rogue