+rdemming Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 For me is it because the Jaguar was the last console of the 2D generation (lets face it, the Jaguar is meant as sprite pusher, not as 3D machine although Atari tried to market it as such). All later console were focusing on 3D what never really interested me (could be because I finally became more mature at the time ). As such the Jaguar was the last console I wasted money on. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) @LianneJaguar64: I personally say if you look at the comments made by likes of:David Wightman, Jeff Minter, Faran Thomason, Ted Tahquechi, B.J West and those from Atari UK, I.D, Bullfrog, Rebellion, ATD, Argonaut, Audiogenic, Core Design, Caspain Software, Domark, Gremlin and so on and so on..... It's easy to see why Jaguar failed. Atari never had the resources, tools etc, rushed out games just to have product on the shelf. Marketing saw the Saturn/PS1 as the new threat and tried to turn hardware designed to take MD/SNES and 3DO head on with 2D games and early 3D games (plain polygons), into the realm of full sctreen texture-mapped 3D. It's been discussed at great length for as long as i can think of. The ST was not still strong in the UK when Jaguar launched, Panther was never going to save Atari, nor had the support it's been claimed. Industry itself had no faith in Atari. So i personally don't think it's a hard call to say what went wrong, evidence is out there and has been for years really. Please, don't get me wrong, as a day 1 Jaguar owner, I wish things had been very different, but they weren't. And as someone who's put in a lot of hours investigating it's lost games,it soon becomes clear how Atari treated the consumer and developers alike. Poorly thought out claims that ST was still strong in Europe and ohh my, if only Atari UK had received more units at launch and things would of been wonderful,do the Jaguar no favours..Amiga had been killing ST for years, STE and Falcon had been dismal failures,likes of Mev Disc making clear why they'd not touch the Panther... yet even this year I still read people saying if it had been released it could if saved Atari, bought Jaguar time... That's simply not true and people from within Atari, let alone publishing community admit that, even if they'd not all be public about it. Edited May 11, 2016 by Lost Dragon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felyx Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Simply because Skylar is so cute and I never found out where she learned to be that green Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Simply because Skylar is so cute and I never found out where she learned to be that green We know who her daddy was! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felyx Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 WTF with my daughter? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Gull Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 So it looks like we have gone through the marketing failure as a good possibility for this system fail as well as developer support for sure. But that was back then I am not sure what the recent appeal might be for this system. Maybe the last console factor for sure especially with the very good possibility of not getting a next generation console from anyone. Where is the Jaguar being popularized now beyond this website? Is anyone seeing a demand in their local gaming community for these now compared to 6 months back? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete5125 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Basically, you got a system that was never a success, it was hard to find new, back in 93-96, you could only find it in the specialty gaming shops like Electronic Boutique, Babbages, Software Etc., then at its demise Kay Bee toys. It was a system that cleared out its hardware for $20 games for less than $5, and still took a year or two to go through inventory that was made up of less than 500 thousand units. Even today I have 4 or 5 retro shops that carry 100 or so Atari 2600 games, 5200 games are easier to find in the wild and that system bombed 155 years earlier. The only place to buy games is a couple of online retailers and E-Bay. E-Bay is an auction site so supply (which is low) vs Demand (which is high) The reason it is high is that YouTube has made the retro scene hip at the moment. I will say YouTube got me back into N64, and if you just want a good system with cheap games(have to buy loose no box) it really is the system to buy for lots of variety, while their are some bad games, it has more to do with game play then, Atari issues like no in game music, lousy control, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LianneJaguar64 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) The Jaguar has some popularity through infamy... Edited May 11, 2016 by LianneJaguar64 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LianneJaguar64 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 Here's the thing, though. It didn't do better. For a multitude of reasons that have been discussed to death here, yet there are people who refuse to believe the facts of what actually happened and come up with scenarios about how the Jaguar could've been super successful. It's not doing you any harm, who cares? If someone wants to talk about it, let them. Yeah it's a well trodden path, but it's not like these people refuse to accept the Jaguar wasn't a commercial failure. We're all Fanboys/girls here, one way or another, and it's something that people are going to want to talk about... Something daft like "Quale was easily possible on Jaguar" yeah I'm with you, it's not happening... Stuff like "suppose more people bought it?" or "what if it saw it's full potential?" are, at least in my opinion, harmless. If unoriginal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willard Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) Yeah it's a well trodden path, but it's not like these people refuse to accept the Jaguar wasn't a commercial failure. I think you mean "it's not like these people refuse to accept the Jaguar was a commercial failure" Unless you're starting to believe one of these what if scenarios have come true Edited May 11, 2016 by Willard 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LianneJaguar64 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) I think you mean "it's not like these people refuse to accept the Jaguar was a commercial failure" Unless you're starting to believe one of these what if scenarios have come true Thanks for the correction XD Edited May 11, 2016 by LianneJaguar64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LianneJaguar64 Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 @LianneJaguar64: I personally say if you look at the comments made by likes of:David Wightman, Jeff Minter, Faran Thomason, Ted Tahquechi, B.J West and those from Atari UK, I.D, Bullfrog, Rebellion, ATD, Argonaut, Audiogenic, Core Design, Caspain Software, Domark, Gremlin and so on and so on..... It's easy to see why Jaguar failed. Atari never had the resources, tools etc, rushed out games just to have product on the shelf. Marketing saw the Saturn/PS1 as the new threat and tried to turn hardware designed to take MD/SNES and 3DO head on with 2D games and early 3D games (plain polygons), into the realm of full sctreen texture-mapped 3D. It's been discussed at great length for as long as i can think of. The ST was not still strong in the UK when Jaguar launched, Panther was never going to save Atari, nor had the support it's been claimed. Industry itself had no faith in Atari. So i personally don't think it's a hard call to say what went wrong, evidence is out there and has been for years really. Please, don't get me wrong, as a day 1 Jaguar owner, I wish things had been very different, but they weren't. And as someone who's put in a lot of hours investigating it's lost games,it soon becomes clear how Atari treated the consumer and developers alike. Poorly thought out claims that ST was still strong in Europe and ohh my, if only Atari UK had received more units at launch and things would of been wonderful,do the Jaguar no favours..Amiga had been killing ST for years, STE and Falcon had been dismal failures,likes of Mev Disc making clear why they'd not touch the Panther... yet even this year I still read people saying if it had been released it could if saved Atari, bought Jaguar time... That's simply not true and people from within Atari, let alone publishing community admit that, even if they'd not all be public about it. The Jaguar was a commercial flop. No question. The way I look at it, it's like a cult classic film or whatever. Beloved by fans (as it is) and maybe has some historical interest in its industry (I'll let you decide) but many people still won't understand it for what it is... And to be honest, it's great to talk, but, to be fair to Madman, it doesn't actually change anything. But once in a while; speculation doesn't hurt I guess. Everything in moderation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+madman Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 The Jaguar was a commercial flop. No question. The way I look at it, it's like a cult classic film or whatever. Beloved by fans (as it is) and maybe has some historical interest in its industry (I'll let you decide) but many people still won't understand it for what it is... And to be honest, it's great to talk, but, to be fair to Madman, it doesn't actually change anything. But once in a while; speculation doesn't hurt I guess. Everything in moderation That's the thing, it's not moderation. That's why there are so many jokes about fumes around here, because people so frequently love to discuss nonsense about conspiracy theories, Quake on Jag, someone coding Road Rash on the Jag, how the Jag could've been successful, etc. It's not at all in moderation. It's regularly and gets old for those of us who've been here for years reading the same crackpot theories and "what if" scenarios. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GroovyBee Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 It's regularly and gets old for those of us who've been here for years reading the same crackpot theories and "what if" scenarios. True, but it tells us who the deep inhalers are . 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 (edited) For publications/websites having someone one write an article on just why the Jaguar failed, can be a real winner. I've no doubt it draws a lot of mainstream attention and looking at what went wrong makes for just as interesting a read as what went right.. It's when speculation goes that little bit too far my eyes start to roll. Could Atari UK have sold more Jaguar consoles at launch, had they been available? I'm bloody sure they could have, but that doesn't mean it would of bought Atari time before the PlayStation and Saturn arrived,or boosted numbers to the point UK publishers saw Jaguar as a viable commercial platform, as they had already seen ST sales drop rapidly off and the STE did nothing to reverse that and the Falcon had been a dismal failure. Then I keep reading how if only the Panther had been released... Sorry, but NO.... The hardware design was awful as it stood on paper, I've contacted one of the hardware designers to see if claims Atari were looking to replace the soundchip with cheaper alternative, but he's too busy to reply... As for the software support from third parties..what software support? Domark were not porting Pitfighter Lee Actor etc confirmed that, yes there was a conversion of Shadow Of The Beast underway, Peter Johnson confirmed to myself he'd been helping with the graphics.. Cybermorph and Crescent Galaxy arrived on Jaguar and you've only to read comments on here about how people took to those 2 in the wider world... Jeff Minter? His planned Star Raiders-esq game never got beyond test routine demos and he himself said whilst Panther was superior to the Megadrive in terms of hardware, it only out gunned the SNES in some areas. Hardly the SNES killer Atari would of needed to buy essential time to develop hardware on par with the Saturn or PS1, yet these article writers would have me believe otherwise. They clearly haven't spoken to those who worked on Panther related projects as even they admit the console would of done nothing to save Atari and choose to ignore comments made by likes of Mev Dinc, who's publicly stated why he choose to decline Atari when offered chance to develop on it. The harm comes when supposed professional writers present personal opinions as fact... Edited May 11, 2016 by Lost Dragon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Sauron Posted May 11, 2016 Share Posted May 11, 2016 For publications/websites having someone one write an article on just why the Jaguar failed, can be a real winner. I've no doubt it draws a lot of mainstream attention and looking at what went wrong makes for just as interesting a read as what went right.. It's when speculation goes that little bit too far my eyes start to roll. Could Atari UK have sold more Jaguar consoles at launch, had they been available? I'm bloody sure they could have, but that doesn't mean it would of bought Atari time before the PlayStation and Saturn arrived,or boosted numbers to the point UK publishers saw Jaguar as a viable commercial platform, as they had already seen ST sales drop rapidly off and the STE did nothing to reverse that and the Falcon had been a dismal failure. Then I keep reading how if only the Panther had been released... Sorry, but NO.... The hardware design was awful as it stood on paper, I've contacted one of the hardware designers to see if claims Atari were looking to replace the soundchip with cheaper alternative, but he's too busy to reply... As for the software support from third parties..what software support? Domark were not porting Pitfighter Lee Actor etc confirmed that, yes there was a conversion of Shadow Of The Beast underway, Peter Johnson confirmed to myself he'd been helping with the graphics.. Cybermorph and Crescent Galaxy arrived on Jaguar and you've only to read comments on here about how people took to those 2 in the wider world... Jeff Minter? His planned Star Raiders-esq game never got beyond test routine demos and he himself said whilst Panther was superior to the Megadrive in terms of hardware, it only out gunned the SNES in some areas. Hardly the SNES killer Atari would of needed to buy essential time to develop hardware on par with the Saturn or PS1, yet these article writers would have me believe otherwise. They clearly haven't spoken to those who worked on Panther related projects as even they admit the console would of done nothing to save Atari and choose to ignore comments made by likes of Mev Dinc, who's publicly stated why he choose to decline Atari when offered chance to develop on it. The harm comes when supposed professional writers present personal opinions as fact... NOTICE ME SENPAI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LianneJaguar64 Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Don't forget the Quake being possible and Tomb Raider being ports... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Dragon Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 @LianneJaguar64:This is taking the thread even further off topic, but never mind Quake and Tomb Raider, you clearly missed the era of folks claiming Jaguar could out do the N64 running Rogue Squadron for starters. Plus all the talk of using the Hoverstrike CD game engine, which even developer admits gave all of a 3-5 frame rate increase over the cart version and you'd see Jaguar CD pulling off competent conversions of things like Daytona USA, Need For Speed.... But hey, cleaner textures folks, apparently.... Anywho, that rise in Jaguar interest these days...what is that all about then?. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlantis Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 I guess the few of us, the fan core plus people coming and going through years past and years to come, tell their thoughts on their personal Jaguar passion or excuse for owning one. We are kind of too few, and the units too few, to ever be able to form some hard fact theory, hence the fume/speculation loop made by new newbees on Jagu-honeymoon (incl me).Too few units to be compared to general collectard issues with all the systems, but me as lots of people, didn't start their gaming or collection with this *beast* but found our way here later. Not 100 of 100 cases, I know.The answer to topic Q: it's a spill-over effect mostly, retro gamers finding this obscure system and retro collectors picking up items form this weird system. Systems like 3D0, Jaguar, CDi get drawn into the craze of the still expanding bubble. The few Jaguar items existing is enough to get the prices a bit up, since the few of us tend to buy the few items. A small gang coming and lesser items out there on the market pushing it up fast, in the battle for the last scraps left of decent games.It's like antiques: you buy and sell old objects, often spending lots of time on it making up your mind, with the idea that it had something special back then -- next to the fast paced markets of today with people being part of commerce, status, and trends, grabbing things in the malls that is much more important to the market than old objects. Retro: wine snobbery, and not coffee on the go in Prada shoes.Why such a craze for Jaguar right now? Well the few items left are disappearing into collections or moving from one collection to the other at high prices.But why? Since some men (mostly) have the gather-hunter gene still pumping, and happen like video games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Galactus Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Yeah, everything is blowing up right now. 32X I don't think quite as much as Jag has. TG-16 is definitely getting there. I still think a lot of the Jag popularity is due to YouTube videos and people just want to experience it for themselves, but who knows. 32X isn't bad...the entire collection can be had for about $1000-1200, and only two games are really rare/valuable (Spider-Man: Web of Fire and World Series Baseball with Deion Sanders). I got the whole shebang about a year ago. Still working on the TG-16, a system which I like infinitely more and which has some exceptional games, but I've relegated myself to knowing a few of the games are probably out of reach for me barring some miracle (Magical Chase, Legend of Hero Tonma, Soldier Blade, Bonk 3 CD, Super Air Zonk, to name a few). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 32X isn't bad...the entire collection can be had for about $1000-1200, and only two games are really rare/valuable (Spider-Man: Web of Fire and World Series Baseball with Deion Sanders). I got the whole shebang about a year ago. Still working on the TG-16, a system which I like infinitely more and which has some exceptional games, but I've relegated myself to knowing a few of the games are probably out of reach for me barring some miracle (Magical Chase, Legend of Hero Tonma, Soldier Blade, Bonk 3 CD, Super Air Zonk, to name a few). Isn't or wasn't DarXide kind of a hard or more expensive one to get? I was never into the 32X stuff but for some reason that title stuck out from many years ago as being rare. To sit and think about the pricing though does seem somewhat absurd. A used Jaguar CD on eBay right now around $690? I guess most people don't really resell theirs here either and when they do, you're looking in the same territory of pricing because that's what they seem to be averaging for on eBay? $400-$500? Seriously, had I ever imagined a day in my life where the Jaguar CD, a peripheral that gets so much shit for looking like a toilet for a failing system with terrible games would bring back $400-$600 some 20-years later, I would have bought EBoutique out! I was very happy with mine at $159 though! =D It almost seems more collectors than players though and that would drive up price more than anything - especially when a Jaguar CD box alone seems to list at $100. Who the hell on Earth actually pays $100 for a box? I get the collection side of things but really? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trooper Galactus Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Isn't or wasn't DarXide kind of a hard or more expensive one to get? I was never into the 32X stuff but for some reason that title stuck out from many years ago as being rare. To sit and think about the pricing though does seem somewhat absurd. I was referring to the US 32X library. I think DarXide was Europe only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+LS650 Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 (edited) How long has that Jag CD been sitting at $690 for? That might be what the seller is asking, but perhaps no one is buying at that price. Look at Completed Auctions: I just did. I saw a couple of untested CD drives for $65 to $150. There were several consoles bundled with Jag CD and a few commons for around $400-$500. Edited May 12, 2016 by ls650 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+save2600 Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Have seen B&C selling the JagCD box for a while (shipping went through the roof on 'em!) but now people are even selling just the styrofoam?! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Atari-Jaguar-Cd-Styrofoam-/291738144235?hash=item43ecf2cdeb:g:CigAAOSwLmVXECxo "once held a new console"... No shit Sherlock! haha, least he's got a sense of humor about selling styrofoam. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clint Thompson Posted May 12, 2016 Share Posted May 12, 2016 Have seen B&C selling the JagCD box for a while (shipping went through the roof on 'em!) but now people are even selling just the styrofoam?! http://www.ebay.com/itm/Atari-Jaguar-Cd-Styrofoam-/291738144235?hash=item43ecf2cdeb:g:CigAAOSwLmVXECxo "once held a new console"... No shit Sherlock! haha, least he's got a sense of humor about selling styrofoam. Oh!! The holy styrofoam that has once been graced by the Jaguar CD! (for those of you who can't afford the real thing, it's the next best thing?) smh lol 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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