Has Yoomp! been ported yet?

[Lynxpro]

Has Yoomp! been ported over to the 5200 yet? It's been out for Atari 8-bit for 9 years so I thought I'd ask.

 

I've seen old posts from Atari 8-bit users requesting Trak-Ball support in the game but I don't think that's happened.

 

It looks really impressive. If it were ported, we might see some owners trying to upgrade their 5200s to use Stereo POKEY since the game supports it.

 

Imagine that, Stereo POKEY and CX53 support. Mind.blown.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Lynxpro

[tdididit]

no, ask fox maybe he would like to port it

[kiwilove]

It's official website is...

 

http://yoomp.atari.pl/

 

 

and

 

http://yoomp.atari.pl/development.htm

 

This explains why it cannot be ported to the 5200

 

 

Technical details and some history

 

Technical details

 

game works on a standard 64-KB Atari thanks to efficient compression - the real memory footprint is over 80 KB.

 

game engine works in 128x96 pixels resolution (Graphics 7, ANTIC mode 14) in 2 frames

 

stereo POKEY is automatically detected. If available, the game uses a pseudo-stereo effect for music, and the sound effects use a left-right panning effect.

 

Some history

 

The original idea for the game was to make an Atari port of the old Tube game by Bullfrog. Unfortunately, it turned out that making such an engine with high resolution (well, relatively) graphics was impossible on a 64 KB Atari, due to memory constraints.

 

This led to the idea of making the in-tunnel port of the D. Johannsen's "Jump!" game (see the image on the left).

 

The game development started on 06.05.2007, and progressed very quickly. The very first "playable" version, with (admittedly ugly) menus, events etc. was ready one week later. You can download this file by simply clicking on this link (if you dare!) or take a look at the screenshot below.

 

 

It still used in-game generated tunnel maps, that didn't use perspective. Also, it provided an alternative ball-control method, similar to the one found in the Gyruss game, later removed from the game.

 

and see the above URL for the rest of the info...

 

Nice site - shows the authors photos too...

 

But maybe it can be ported - but would require a lot of rewriting/etc to get it running, and too much work to do, unless someone's a fan of it, and a genius at 5200 porting/conversion.

 

Harvey

Edited May 24, 2016 by kiwilove

[tdididit]

is possible to port it to 5200 an no need a genius for it

 

a precalc with moving texture - precalc for drawing screen can stay in rom, same tiles textures, 16kB of ram should be enough for large texture and rest of stuff what need to be in ram

Edited May 24, 2016 by tdididit

[Lynxpro]

Sounds like a lot of work but if anyone's up to the challenge, definitely go for it...

 

 

I think this emphasizes the need for a working RAM upgrade for the 5200. Armchair speculation that that would involve an update to the BIOS and map the RAM in areas that only those new or modded games would look to access so as to not cause compatibility issues with the existing library… Seeing that the 7800 XM & the XBoard feature 128K, giving the 5200 256K or 512K would probably be sufficient for at least 90% of the various awesome graphics and sound demos and games that have been written for the Atari 8-bit computers since their commercial discontinuation. Then, such ports of games would just have to deal with remapping instead of figuring out tricks to continuously load and unload the limited system RAM.

[tdididit]

no need xm for 5200, i will design some expansion for 5200 in near future.

i am rebuilding now my 5200 system.

i got only 2 port mobo, so it need cover and something inside of it for game dev

 

when i will have some spare time i will port 4kB yoomp only to show you that it will work on raw system

[Aking]

4k Yoomp! for the 5200 is really something i should have to see to believe...

Edited May 25, 2016 by Aking

[Lynxpro]

I stand corrected. Curt said over on Facebook that the 5200's Expansion Port does have a read/write line which could be used for RAM. He stated there isn't a Chip Select Line but that the Enable Line possibly could be used for something like a PIA. Here's some of his comments from that discussion thread:

 

 

The expansion bus has pinouts for what equals the SIO port on an Atari 800 computer and some cartridge and control lines. There were plans for: an external computer keyboard, a music keyboard and of course the Voice control/synthesiser module that Milton Bradley was contracted to build for Atari.

 

You have all of the data/address lines, the r/w line, clock line... you have enough there that a ram expander could potentially be added to the port...

 

As for the 5200 BIOS question:

 

I don't think you necessary have to rely on the BIOS, you could potentially have the game code page in memory from the additional ram into the 16K ram space in the memory map. Or you could have a game overwrite the BIOS handler with the needed functions running in memory... I've never messed around with the 5200 hw, and since it differs in many ways from the 8bit and doesn't use the same memory lines as an 8bit externally accessible at the cart port or expansion port, you'd have to ask some of the more seasoned programmers on an implementation in their game code...

 

Curt then provided a link to a chart of the 5200's Memory Map:

 

https://www.eskimo.com/~tmci.../atari/mine/5200MemoryMap.jpg

 

Weird how the Expansion Port is similar to SIO but then the console itself lacks a PIA to work with SIO. I thought it relevant to include this info from Curt into this thread just in case anyone interested in future 5200 upgrades stumbles in here...

[Bryan]

Well, it includes the serial lines from Pokey but the SIO control lines came from the PIA (Command is the only one that's essential).

 

You'd have to use a different serial scheme for 5200 add-ons or make a way to add some control lines for full SIO support.

[Lynxpro]

Well, it includes the serial lines from Pokey but the SIO control lines came from the PIA (Command is the only one that's essential).

 

You'd have to use a different serial scheme for 5200 add-ons or make a way to add some control lines for full SIO support.

 

Sounds like an internal board would be required then instead of using the Expansion Port. Like plug it into a socket used by another chip. Kinda like how some upgrades are done on the ST or say the XBoard on the 7800 that uses a scheme by plugging into MARIA's socket in order to add single or Dual POKEYS and 128K RAM. If so, that wouldn't be a difficult install other than drilling a hole into the case and mounting the SIO Port. Programming, well, I leave that speculation to you programmers but hopefully it would just be a mapping issue. Get an SIO scheme going on the 5200 and then a port of MIDI Maze would be doable.

[Goochman]

You can already get a memory/disk drive upgrade for the 5200 and play Yoomph today - here is a picture of it:

 

 

 

All joking aside since the XL/5200 are the same architecture and play the same games Im not sure the need for a specific 5200 enhancement board when moving to an XL/XE does everything and then some.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Goochman

[tdididit]

most of modern extensions need internal board, and most of XL/XE extensions can be installed in 5200 console.

 

VBXE - sits on ANTIC/GTIA

Simple Stereo - sits on POKEY (2x POKEY, AKI, COVOX)

IOBoard - additional ports and SIO2USB

 

on 5200 Expansion Port we have only part of needed signals, few more need to be taken from Cartridge Slot - so what would e better, one board internal extension or two boards external ( on expansion port & cartridge port)?

[tdididit]

You can already get a memory/disk drive upgrade for the 5200 and play Yoomph today - here is a picture of it:

 

 

 

All joking aside since the XL/5200 are the same architecture and play the same games Im not sure the need for a specific 5200 enhancement board when moving to an XL/XE does everything and then some.

 

not exact the same - different memory map, controllers, no ROM interrupt handlers, etc.

 

XL/XE code is easy to port for 5200 but need some extras to be added

Edited May 26, 2016 by tdididit

[Lynxpro]

You can already get a memory/disk drive upgrade for the 5200 and play Yoomph today - here is a picture of it:

 

 

 

All joking aside since the XL/5200 are the same architecture and play the same games Im not sure the need for a specific 5200 enhancement board when moving to an XL/XE does everything and then some.

 

And I can reply: no analog controller support, limited to 1 single fire-button action on controllers, can't comfortably game from the couch because of the keyboard, not truly a console, etc.

 

Plus, there are A8 users who want 5200 Tempest ported to A8. Back in the day, they championed Glenn the 5200 Man in converting superior 5200 tiles over to A8. Perhaps everyone should've told them to "get a 5200!" instead.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Lynxpro

[Lynxpro]

most of modern extensions need internal board, and most of XL/XE extensions can be installed in 5200 console.

 

VBXE - sits on ANTIC/GTIA

Simple Stereo - sits on POKEY (2x POKEY, AKI, COVOX)

IOBoard - additional ports and SIO2USB

 

on 5200 Expansion Port we have only part of needed signals, few more need to be taken from Cartridge Slot - so what would e better, one board internal extension or two boards external ( on expansion port & cartridge port)?

 

*RAM is the big sticking point with the 5200. It needs an easy RAM upgrade so more original homebrews and A8 conversions can be done. Once that happens, it'll become a more popular retro console and A8 will receive a spill-over as well. There needs to be a "homebrew" standard agreed upon so extra RAM is mapped to the same agreed-upon locations whether a RAM expander is done internally or externally through the Expansion Port. That would mirror what has been done over on the 7800 with how 128K RAM and POKEYs are mapped by both the original XBoard and the XM. 48K or 64K expansion would be more appropriate to the 5200's original release but I'd vote not to cap it. With the popularity of the Ultimate 1MB Upgrade on A8 - now going up to 4MB - as well as over in the Apple II land now having 8MB upgrades, I say place no limits. If I recall correctly, A8 Space Harrier was going to originally support 128K RAM and up before it was reduced to 64K. No need to compromise in 2016+.

 

*Same with sound chips. Standard mapping locations so either internal or external expansion would be supported.

 

*VBXE. If you want the best picture possible, sure, you can go this route. 99% of the home-brews and hacks won't support it but I'm not against it. Hell, throw in a 65816 and you could at least port Apple IIGS titles over.

 

*I/O Board. Based upon what Curt mentioned, it may not be realistic to offer PIA/SIO via the Expansion Port. It would most likely have to be internally added. If it's an internal plug-in, even better. Combined with extra RAM, A8 MIDI Maze could be ported. And that would definitely be cool to play networked.

[tdididit]

I will create separate thread and there we can think how and what we can put inside our 5200 systems

 

On expansion port i can put SIO compatible device - need to be only a register to hold control signals for SIO devices (COMMAND, PROCEED, IRQ)

 

Most of a8 games will work on 16kB RAM, only code need to be rewrited

 

For future homebrews would be good to have

 

A000-BFFF - static ROM bank (like bank 7 in 78SC)

 

8000-9FFF - switchable ROM window

 

4000-7FFF - switchable RAM window (like in 7800)

Edited May 27, 2016 by tdididit

[Bryan]

One thing about consoles is that they usually represent a fixed set of parameters, at least more so than computers do. Usually the solution is to make a cartridge capable of taking some of the load off the host machine.

[kiwilove]

If you are going to make some kind of hardware add on device - that will allow Yoomp to be more easily ported across to the 5200 hardware - hopefully this will mean also other stubborn titles can also be ported too...quicker/easier? That there is less of a boundary between the 5200 and A8 computer lineage.

 

This might perhaps enable the longevity of the 5200 to be extended.

 

But as has been jokingly said - it's quicker/easier to simply get hold of one of the Atari 8-bit computers because it's possible to get one very cheap - if you're at the right place, at the right time - or simply fork out the money for a refurnished machine - that is almost like new. And a cart system like Atarimax or similar. That can serve as a backup to your 5200 anyway.

 

Harvey

[CPUWIZ]

See ya talking about it in 6 years. LOL

[Lynxpro]

One thing about consoles is that they usually represent a fixed set of parameters, at least more so than computers do. Usually the solution is to make a cartridge capable of taking some of the load off the host machine.

 

The problem is the 5200 cartridge slot doesn't really do that well due compared to the 7800. And as such, the 5200 has the RAM limitation.

 

A small little box - something like XM301 modem size - that could plug into the Expansion Port that included extra RAM would be the simple solution. Just like the Colecovision expansion box that so many people rave about. That shouldn't take 6 years to produce. Now if you add the keyboard port and a bunch of sound chip options, yes, that could bog the unit down the release which has famously happened to the 7800 XM Project when the one person working on the BIOS decides to abandon it all for whatever reason.

 

Give it 512K or 1MB and A8 conversions would be easier than trying to rewrite everything to use tricks to get around the 5200's standard 16K RAM limitation.

[Bryan]

Atari had this giant cartridge format and couldn't be bothered to include a couple extra control lines- especially after all the workarounds needed to expand the capabilities of 2600 cartridges. It absolutely boggles the mind.

[CPUWIZ]

The problem is the 5200 cartridge slot doesn't really do that well due compared to the 7800. And as such, the 5200 has the RAM limitation.

 

A small little box - something like XM301 modem size - that could plug into the Expansion Port that included extra RAM would be the simple solution. Just like the Colecovision expansion box that so many people rave about. That shouldn't take 6 years to produce. Now if you add the keyboard port and a bunch of sound chip options, yes, that could bog the unit down the release which has famously happened to the 7800 XM Project when the one person working on the BIOS decides to abandon it all for whatever reason.

 

Give it 512K or 1MB and A8 conversions would be easier than trying to rewrite everything to use tricks to get around the 5200's standard 16K RAM limitation.

Look at what address lines you have on the expansion port and then do the math on paper about how much you can do with it.

[tdididit]

CPUWIZ, first they need to realize that there is no EXTRAM signal what let to take control over address bus and on Expansion Port there is no CI signals, so console will stay on standby without cart plugged into cart slot. Like i wrote before is possible to use XL/XE mods but those mods need to be installed inside. Extension Port was designed only for Serial communication purpose and is possible to connect there SIO2SD for an example ....

 

 

... 16kB of RAM is enough for Yoomp, the code need only be reorganized to have static data in ROM and dynamic in RAM

Edited May 28, 2016 by tdididit

[Bryan]

16KB was enough for MULE, but it's isn't a double-buffered action game.

[tdididit]

16KB was enough for MULE, but it's isn't a double-buffered action game.

 

for pixel graphics is enough. 40x192= 7680 bytes per screen

 

for tile based graphics even less 40x24 = 960 bytes

Edited May 28, 2016 by tdididit