emkay Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 And now hopefully Emkay understands why I specifically said an MSX, not a Konami Nemesis board. Just kidding, he'll never get it. "POKEY should have no problem reproducing the start theme. Heck, even the MSX version gets it right." It's just those lazy statement from above, that make people guessing wrong possibilities to the A8. You'd need 2 POKEYs to get the musical feature of the MSX, driving 30% of the 6502 CPU, where the MSX almost needs no CPU ... OK, you could do PWM , using almost all CPU with one POKEY.... Musicwise every of those old chips is better than POKEY. But people still like to mix things up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted March 27, 2017 Share Posted March 27, 2017 Ok, the start theme (both arcade and MSX versions) was sent yesterday to another musician. Let's see what will happen next... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) "POKEY should have no problem reproducing the start theme. Heck, even the MSX version gets it right." It's just those lazy statement from above, that make people guessing wrong possibilities to the A8. You'd need 2 POKEYs to get the musical feature of the MSX, driving 30% of the 6502 CPU, where the MSX almost needs no CPU ... OK, you could do PWM , using almost all CPU with one POKEY.... Musicwise every of those old chips is better than POKEY. But people still like to mix things up. I'm confused - the MSX has one 3 voice AY chip - a very limited chip in my experience of having to actually use them in games. How does the A8 need 2 pokeys to come near that? Getting a solid rendition of the game audio on Pokey is totally practical IMHO; either as a conversion from the WSG original or based on the MSX conversion... sTeVE P.S. The conversion is looking absolutely fantastic by the way, a really great piece of work!! Edited March 28, 2017 by Jetboot Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 No need for two POKEYs here. Work in progress... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 No need for two POKEYs here. Work in progress... As expected max. 3 channels with a perfect frequency offset at a higher frequency range. Octave 3-4.... Something POKEY can only do correct with some trickery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 I'm confused - the MSX has one 3 voice AY chip - a very limited chip in my experience of having to actually use them in games. How does the A8 need 2 pokeys to come near that? Another example... Put aside "how it sounds" .... if you don't hear that swimming through the notes in the Atari Version, we may not discuss things further... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 And that's what could be reached, using RMT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) Emkay, I am still utterly confused - you seem rather bent on making this thread about the impossibility of this being a good version of the game with good sound. From what I have seen Bosconian is shaping up to be an exemplary game for the little Atari and from what I know of the audio abilities of the system I expect there to be equally great sound - the samples are already awesome!! This is an Atari forum celebrating our collective enthusiasm for this old computer - lighten up, this is gonna be great! sTeVE Edited March 28, 2017 by Jetboot Jack 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Yeah, seriously - the nerd-fight/pissing match about what POKEY can or cannot do is not only a thread-jacking gone bad, it's detracting from the excellent work done by the authors of this port. Give it a rest, guys, and let the people behind the game do their work. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Emkay, I am still utterly confused - you seem rather bent on making this thread about the impossibility of this being a good version of the game with good sound. I know, people here tend to understand things wrong. But it's more the problem when people do footless evidences. It's hard enough to have people doing false expectation. No need to put oil to the fire. The game is very great, no question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 (edited) Yeah, seriously - the nerd-fight/pissing match about what POKEY can or cannot do is not only a thread-jacking gone bad, it's detracting from the excellent work done by the authors of this port. Give it a rest, guys, and let the people behind the game do their work. Actually, I hope, a good way for the sound will be found. But other great looking projects have been screwed up by the used sounds. IMHO too much already. Edited March 28, 2017 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 2 things: 1- This Bonsconian project is looking and sounding pretty nice. I like it. I had no idea it was in development till recently. Can someone tell me what the minimum spec machine this is being targeted to? 2- Going back to October 2016.. That's why it's called "Never Twice the Same Color". Star Raiders, according to the manual, will turn the screen bluish when shields are activated, while I know from first-hand experience and from Youtube that it turns dark green: The intended colors of Star Raiders for the shields are blue, not green. And the Red Alert upon exiting hyperspace should be red, not violet/purple. Anything else is incorrect emulation or improper TV/computer color adjustment. I remember that from when I was a kid. And Doug himself said so in an interview. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Hey Keetah, have you the Altirra settings that give this under NTSC (or PAL but surely as it was NTSC devised it should be right there first and foremost) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 The intended colors of Star Raiders for the shields are blue, not green. And the Red Alert upon exiting hyperspace should be red, not violet/purple. Anything else is incorrect emulation or improper TV/computer color adjustment. I remember that from when I was a kid. And Doug himself said so in an interview. Tell that the Atari engineers of the past, creating the PAL machines. You cannot change the color there. On PAL machines it is unchangeable "green and violett" .... since PAL machines don't have a "red" color. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 This is the setup for my portable Toughbook laptop. Each monitor will be slightly different, no doubt. The 2.80 scheme looks good also. Slight variations in shades I suppose. But this is how I remember it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZylonBane Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) As expected max. 3 channels with a perfect frequency offset at a higher frequency range. Octave 3-4.... Something POKEY can only do correct with some trickery. Dear Crazy Person, Even IF there are any notes in the Bosconian opening theme that POKEY can't get close enough, it's only a three-voice song. Just run POKEY in 16/8/8 mode and assign any problem notes to the 16-bit channel. But precise note matching is really less important than you desperately, obnoxiously cling to believing. As long as the notes used aren't horribly off-key, and everything else is right... the timing, volume, and envelopes... a song will be recognizable as itself. This principle is why, for example, even a TIA trying to do the Galaga theme can sound "good" to most ears. Edited March 29, 2017 by ZylonBane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Tell that the Atari engineers of the past, creating the PAL machines. You cannot change the color there. On PAL machines it is unchangeable "green and violett" .... since PAL machines don't have a "red" color. So PAL 8-bit Ataris can't draw red colors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 So PAL 8-bit Ataris can't draw red colors?Yep. The "real" RED isn't there. You have some "Brown/Pink"-Red and some "Whine"-Red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Tell that the Atari engineers of the past, creating the PAL machines. You cannot change the color there. On PAL machines it is unchangeable "green and violett" .... since PAL machines don't have a "red" color. Yep. The "real" RED isn't there. You have some "Brown/Pink"-Red and some "Whine"-Red. Yes that's pretty much what I've observed. I never cared much for PAL's gamut. I guess having grown up with NTSC makes me biased. But whatever. I'm sure the engineers had their reasons for it. Whatever those may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Red is there - NTSC suffers same as PAL in that saturation at mid/high luma drops off which in both cases turns red into pink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 To be fair it's not PAL's color gamut that is at fault but Atari's output of it's PAL video signal - PAL has a good bandwidth for color and removes hue errors, also chroma errors are not present in PAL outputs.... Take a look at machines developed for PAL rather than converted to PAL, or later machines like the ST and the AMIGA to see what I mean - proper reds... sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Yes I suppose so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 I've been using some of the wonderful palette's developed by Trebor for 2600/5200/7800 and A8 - http://atariage.com/forums/topic/218439-pam-finally-gets-some-clothes/ - in my quest for emulated Atari perfection :-) sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 ST/Amiga are different. They generate RGB and in both cases use the same off-the-shelf IC to create the chroma/luma signals for TV output. The problem with the "old way", ie initial video chip output based on chroma/luma is that often they don't bother looking after saturation properly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetboot Jack Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 That was not my point, I am aware of different systems electronics, my point was weak reds and odd PAL colours are not a property of PAL or NTSC, but A8 design... sTeVE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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