VinsCool Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, EnderDude said: Is it me, or does the 16-bit pure sound a bit off? Took a quick look... Let's see... CH3+4 + CH3 1.79mhz, but CH3 was never actually used for 16-bit sound, so no surprise there, only the High Byte (CH4) was present, the Low Byte (CH3) was never edited accordingly, but instead used as... whatever it is. Regardless of what does what, the tune is a unlistenable mess, even with proper 16-bit in channel (3+)4, literally all parts are out of key, lol Edited October 31, 2021 by VinsCool 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 29 minutes ago, VinsCool said: 5 hours ago, EnderDude said: Is it me, or does the 16-bit pure sound a bit off? Took a quick look... Let's see... CH3+4 + CH3 1.79mhz, but CH3 was never actually used for 16-bit sound, so no surprise there, only the High Byte (CH4) was present, the Low Byte (CH3) was never edited accordingly, but instead used as... whatever it is. Regardless of what does what, the tune is a unlistenable mess, even with proper 16-bit in channel (3+)4, literally all parts are out of key, lol Edited 21 minutes ago by VinsCool We can now pass it through this That will avoid the arguments of "you are deaf, it obviously is in tune, you just don't understand music". 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 31, 2021 Author Share Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, VinsCool said: Took a quick look... Let's see... CH3+4 + CH3 1.79mhz, but CH3 was never actually used for 16-bit sound, so no surprise there, only the High Byte (CH4) was present, the Low Byte (CH3) was never edited accordingly, but instead used as... whatever it is. Regardless of what does what, the tune is a unlistenable mess, even with proper 16-bit in channel (3+)4, literally all parts are out of key, lol Funnily enough. It plays the tune as it has been intended (rather bizarre) incl. the FX, because the chip is mixing it within it's limits. Let's see how it COULD sound within a proper RMT Tracker. Edited October 31, 2021 by emkay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 31, 2021 Author Share Posted October 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Stephen said: We can now pass it through this That will avoid the arguments of "you are deaf, it obviously is in tune, you just don't understand music". You never will learn it, will you? Still dropping Troll posts in without any sense. See, EnderDude now did a very good adoption of the Monty tune, VinsCool did the needed corrections, so they have some rights to criticize things. We have learned from your posts that you really have no idea about music, as you tell "music is in tune" that clearly isn't. Together with "Irgendwer" , you again broke the flow of the thread. My part here still ever was to help to improve things, show what's possible. And as things show, at least some people understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted October 31, 2021 Author Share Posted October 31, 2021 19 hours ago, EnderDude said: I do recall liking to listen to your driller conversion. Maybe we could revisit that and spruce it up a bit? Have you read the posts below this post? Actually, till today you are the 1st "POKEY" musician I know who is actually doing the notation correct and gives pokey the possibility to sound correct in the relevant places. Things always can turn funny. To the tune itself. It would be recommended to have channel 4 always set to the correct 16 bit pitch. Channel 3 don't need any pitch adjustment. It just needs to set the dedicated generator and volume level , to have the fx channel working. Doing this 16 bit stuff in single instruments on the original RMT would need to have 100s of different instrumets running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ivop Posted October 31, 2021 Share Posted October 31, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, Stephen said: We can now pass it through this That will avoid the arguments of "you are deaf, it obviously is in tune, you just don't understand music". Nah, it's useless to prove anything like that. The TASCAM will adjust everything to equal temperament, but the point is, the dist C basses are not, hence new tuning tables which are not equally tempered. A lot of in-tune Pokey songs lately, but the TASCAM will "fix" them and remove any Pokey character. Edited October 31, 2021 by ivop 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderDude Posted November 1, 2021 Share Posted November 1, 2021 (edited) So I tried doing the first two lines of Driller using 16-bit mode and 2T. I discovered you can use two-tone mode with 16-bit mode for channels one and two. If you do use them together, the duty cycle in channel 1 would get narrower as you go higher in pitch. 2021-11-01 08-39-19.mp4 driller-title-2t.rmt Edited November 1, 2021 by EnderDude 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 2, 2021 Author Share Posted November 2, 2021 On 11/1/2021 at 4:45 PM, EnderDude said: So I tried doing the first two lines of Driller using 16-bit mode and 2T. I discovered you can use two-tone mode with 16-bit mode for channels one and two. If you do use them together, the duty cycle in channel 1 would get narrower as you go higher in pitch. 2021-11-01 08-39-19.mp4 4.41 MB · 1 download driller-title-2t.rmt 580 B · 2 downloads See the problem? Sorry, but your try is swimming in the sea of nothing, causeing nausea. Don't get me wrong , I appreciate all you other work. But there is this riddle of "music creation" that is still unsolved. The latest results by VinsCool also don't sound like music, even if maths might be correct. Remember your statement that you liked my edit. Music is not really depending on "musical correctness". It's also depending on the correct sounding. On a weird point, it IS depending on the right frequency. Even if it sounds out of tune "somehow", my edit sounds correct to the tune. The main spot is about the raw 8 bit resolution. You have to find solutions to get the correct sound. And the correct sound is mostly not a single frequency. It is the resulting sound of several adding frequencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 2, 2021 Share Posted November 2, 2021 emkay, if the band tunes up to an out of tune instrument... mostly everything will sound fine to the untrained ear... but... certain instruments produce harmonics when improperly tuned and adding more frequencies as you put it only makes it hurt the ears... this may be why people hear dying cats for certain productions and they don't consider that music... but rather torture to their ears... you can become deaf to such things if you listen to it for a long time... but most of us can't last that long! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VinsCool Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 3 hours ago, emkay said: See the problem? Sorry, but your try is swimming in the sea of nothing, causeing nausea. Don't get me wrong , I appreciate all you other work. Why so much negativity? Things are being discovered/figured out over time, I see nothing wrong with that. Leave it some more time. There is nothing wrong with experimenting and learning from the observations, or even think outside of the box to come with a clever solution. 3 hours ago, emkay said: But there is this riddle of "music creation" that is still unsolved. Which is...? There have been many, many attempts being done to improve or create new tools to allow more to be done with less difficulty to get to the point. Hard to really come to a conclusion when things are still work in progress too. I am also aware I can't do everything myself yet, unfortunately, and I do swear, I try to do something, at least. Trying and failing is part of the learning process, which is better than complaining all the time, doing nothing useful nor helpful about the very things being complained about. 3 hours ago, emkay said: The latest results by VinsCool also don't sound like music, even if maths might be correct. Alright, I'll bite, since I'm bored tonight, looking at some stuff with the only bit of free time I have today. "Don't sound like music" why thanks, I guess my number 1 mistake was trying to experiment and compose my own music instead of "borrowing" someone else's .mod files and play them back in the wrong key each time ? "Don't sound like music" sure is quite an ironic statement when you yourself couldn't even pass the basic ear training test, plus I don't remember when was the last time you actually have composed something from scratch, no "borrow" from other artists. Same applies for covers, if a pre-existing .mod isn't available I bet you couldn't even do it manually, even less by ear. You know, we have a name for this sort of skills to pick someone else's work and botcher it into a "remix" or whatever: midislapping, although I might as well call it modslapping in this case. So let me ask you: why do you think what I do doesn't sound like music? And I am asking as an avid music listener myself, not if what I do is good or bad, that's irrelevant, just in what way, exactly? Original, impossible sounds, producing chords, being tuned well, played in some odd time signature too experimental for your liking? What about cover version of songs, played using my tables? Not Atari-detuned-unlistenable enough? Or are the Original versions bad to your liking in the first place? 4 hours ago, emkay said: Music is not really depending on "musical correctness". It's also depending on the correct sounding. "It's not a cheeseburger, it's a hamburger with a slice of cheese..." ? Here's a word for this reasoning: Contradiction. con·tra·dic·tion /ˌkäntrəˈdikSH(ə)n/ Someone or something with qualities or features that seem to conflict with one another. "A loving father as well as a ruthless killer, the gangster is a living contradiction." A refusal to confirm the truth of a statement. "The actress's contradiction of the marriage rumor caused quite a stir." Synonyms: denegation, denial, disallowance, disavowal, disclaimer, disconfirmation, negation, rejection, repudiation... 4 hours ago, emkay said: On a weird point, it IS depending on the right frequency. Even if it sounds out of tune "somehow", my edit sounds correct to the tune. The main spot is about the raw 8 bit resolution. You have to find solutions to get the correct sound. And the correct sound is mostly not a single frequency. It is the resulting sound of several adding frequencies. Good, so you do know what harmonics and chords are fundamentally, so you might know why being "in key" is also important? There's quite a difference between a note being off-tune (between 0 to ~20 cents) and still sounding good (hint hint, the entire reason I attempted my own approach to the tuning for the Atari 8-bit in the first place), and being totally out of tune (basically, 100 cents and more, being literal semitones away, also called "being in the wrong key". And if the intervals between notes in a melody is correct, it will still be out of tune when the underlying chords or bassline are playing in a different key, I know this is hard to accept but this is how music works, I do not make the rules. Note the emphasis on interval here, this is the most important element to what I have been doing recently in order to make the tuning better, not saying it's superior, but less grating to the ears to a person with a minimal amount of musical ability (96% of the entire population, unless they are tone deaf). Quoted from wikipedia about earing disabilities: Congenital amusia, commonly known as tone deafness, refers to a musical disability that cannot be explained by prior brain lesion, hearing loss, cognitive defects, or lack of environmental stimulation, and it affects about 4% of the population. Individuals who suffer from congenital amusia seem to lack the musical predispositions with which most people are born. They are unable to recognize or hum familiar tunes even if they have normal audiometry and above-average intellectual and memory skills. Also, they do not show sensitivity to dissonant chords in a melodic context, which, as discussed earlier, is one of the musical predispositions exhibited by infants. The hallmark of congenital amusia is a deficit in fine-grained pitch discrimination, and this deficit is most apparent when congenital amusics are asked to pick out a wrong note in a given melody. If the distance between two successive pitches is small, congenital amusics are not able to detect a pitch change. As a result of this defect in pitch perception, a lifelong musical impairment may emerge due to a failure to internalize musical scales. A lack of fine-grained pitch discrimination makes it extremely difficult for amusics to enjoy and appreciate music, which consists largely of small pitch changes. [...] Tone deafness is also associated with other musical-specific impairments such as the inability to keep time with music (beat deafness, or the lack of rhythm), or the inability to remember or recognize a song. These disabilities can appear separately, but some research shows that they are more likely to appear in tone-deaf people. Experienced musicians, such as W. A. Mathieu, have addressed tone deafness in adults as correctable with training. Now, I don't want to make baseless assumptions, but this bit of information sure matches many patterns I could observe (pardon me, I meant, hear) in this thread. Good news however, it could be improved with practice, but not if the person rely on someone else's music notation for everything they produce. ? 4 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: emkay, if the band tunes up to an out of tune instrument... mostly everything will sound fine to the untrained ear... but... certain instruments produce harmonics when improperly tuned and adding more frequencies as you put it only makes it hurt the ears... this may be why people hear dying cats for certain productions and they don't consider that music... but rather torture to their ears... you can become deaf to such things if you listen to it for a long time... but most of us can't last that long! This man gets it, thanks god, there is, indeed, a god. Everything equally "out of tune" is precisely what I have been doing for a while, and the results are usually a noticeable improvement in the tuning, since, well, things actually are closer to it, rather than "as close as possible" to an incompatible pitch range. But anyway, why am I even going on such a tangent right now? I should instead keep wasting my free time with original compositions that "don't sound like music", or hack music tools beyond their effective usefulness if they're becoming too difficult to use in a out of key situation, making .mod imports (even more) barely recognisable. Or maybe I should just sit on my ass, and tell everyone who don't agree with me they're too archaic and have poor taste-- regardless of being right or not, I must be a contrarian. Who knows, I am indeed a very stubborn person in general, so maybe, I would be able to embrace this lifestyle with natural ease, and even feel at home with it! I hope you all liked the Automatic GEN2 Patch for RMT, because this is honestly the last time I am going to grant a request by Emkay with full commitment, using my own free time, then struggle to successfully make it happen. He has some very good ideas, but his attitude is really pissing me off lately. What an ungrateful brat. I have been doing a lot of this only for myself specifically, and I have been happy to share everything I've learned and did to the community, and I will always give away my files, but honestly, being told I make shit when I put a lot of efforts into everything I do really hurts me right now. At least, I try. 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderDude Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 2 hours ago, VinsCool said: At least, I try. Which I was honoring more than one time. But then there is that point where we don't find a common part. I'm doing all those MOD conversion to show that musical dependencies can even be reached without the need of having 100% correct frequencies. Then I explain on and on that it is only possible to create new tunes using POKEY, if the Tracker does this by default. Then, after all your big invested time, you still do that mistake that people do since the Atari exists: Doing "new tunes with the slight off pitch" and put that to the whole tune. Since you did the notation correction, the quality of adopted tunes got a big benefit, and it works. The tunes can be corrected now. Playing fine on this old chip. Stephen might possibly be right (he was just trolling but sometimes a blind chicken will pick the grain) , to add a pitch corrector to such a tracker, that switches (or proposes the best setting) automatically to the best fitting combination and to get the correct frequency there. If you have a working tune on the real side of music, you can put it to the Atari and adjust it. But you only can do new music on the Atari, if you keep the original sound of music in mind. What disturbs me mostly in POKEY tunes is this "late drawing frequency rubber band" sound. ending at no point at the correct pitch. I name it toothgums pulling. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderDude Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Mr. Krix, with all due respect, if you're not going to post any sort of apology, if I were you, I'd take a little break from posting. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 As long as POKEY music sound this deaf, we can never get to a common point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 You don't hear the differnce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 @emkay Yeah, different soundchips which every has his own sounding. But, since no one asked you for music for Wonder Boy, so feel free to stick with your "achievements". And yeah, you're deaf. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 30 minutes ago, miker said: And yeah, you're deaf. Says the guy who made this detuned thing? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Thank God you make your ones in tune... ??? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 45 minutes ago, miker said: Thank God you make your ones in tune... ??? When do you start making POKEY music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Long enough. Hey! What music??? As there's no real Pokey Tracker (have you ever started one?) there is no music, just trash!*) *) But I like tat "trash" somehow (well... no, not yours). 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 29 minutes ago, miker said: *) But I like tat "trash" somehow (well... no, not yours). I know you want detuned stuff. Just like the tune in MotR. Always the same break in the melodic range. Yeah, same with Flimbo's quest. All trash... for sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderDude Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 (edited) 11 minutes ago, emkay said: I know you want detuned stuff. Just like the tune in MotR. Always the same break in the melodic range. Yeah, same with Flimbo's quest. All trash... for sure. In Miker's defense, he made his MotR cover in Delta Music Composer. I have never even seen the program before, but I'm guessing he made it in DMC to either be more efficient in memory and cpu time than RMT so it could be played along with running the game. Maybe DMC didn't have the best frequency tables for notes in the higher octaves? Edited November 3, 2021 by EnderDude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 2 minutes ago, EnderDude said: In Miker's defense, he made his MotR cover in Delta Music Composer. I have never even seen the program before, but I'm guessing he made it in DMC to either be more efficient in memory and cpu time than RMT. Maybe DMC didn't have the best frequency tables for notes in the higher octaves? You see Miker attacking me in my own thread, because he is sure he did it all right. So just forget it. He is really deaf. He's actually one of those persons who defended the wrong pitch alignment . Nothing to add. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miker Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 @EnderDude Thanks. It was done indeed mainly because of CPU usage with Delta Music Composer player. Also the program itself was originally done in 1995 and then some times improved (ie. music in such productions as Asskicker or Trip 6). So no hardsynths, no 16-bit tables, only "sidsynths" were added specially for MoTR. But shh... don't ruin @emkay's world. He surely knows better. ? @emkay and again, the authors approved it, so your agurments still remain invalid. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted November 3, 2021 Author Share Posted November 3, 2021 1 minute ago, miker said: @EnderDude Thanks. It was done indeed mainly because of CPU usage with Delta Music Composer player. Also the program itself was originally done in 1995 and then some times improved (ie. music in such productions as Asskicker or Trip 6). So no hardsynths, no 16-bit tables, only "sidsynths" were added specially for MoTR. But shh... don't ruin @emkay's world. He surely knows better. ? @emkay and again, the authors approved it, so your agurments still remain invalid. Come on, you killed a lot of great demos. You only don't get it, because you live in a sandbox. To impress people from outside the Atari scene, the music has to be as catchy as possible, not just detuned to your small opinion. People like you have been the cause that it took more than 40 years to get this new level of pokey music that is possible today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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