Mechanicjay Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 After having it sit on the shelf for two years, I finally got around to installing my Incognito board at the Seattle Retro Computing Society meeting this weekend. Total install time was about 4 hours, which included socialization time and talking about the project with several folks. I opted *NOT* to perform the power LED / atr cycle button at this time, because (aside from trimming the plastic shield on the inside) it's the only non-easily reversible part of the mod.The one thing that really threw me, was that my CPU board was completely different from the board pictured in the original instructions. I don't know if it's an NTSC vs PAL thing, or just a revision, but the chips on my board are all oriented with pin 1 at the bottom, rather than the top of the board, so basically 180* different. Not a bit deal, I just counted and grabbed the right pins, since thankfully, the instructions were explicit about pins 9 and 15 being needed.I put it all back together and, powered it on, and the Incognito screen came up for me to set options. Yes! I set some options, saved it turned it off, turned it on and it asked to set options again...not good. I checked the button battery, figuring I didn't have it seated correctly. I pulled the entire Incognito board out of the machine to check as something didn't look quite right. When attempting to remove the battery from the holder, the entire holder popped off the board. I guess I found the issue! I made quick work of that with the soldering iron, popped the battery in, reinstalled the Incognito board and bingo, everything seemed to work as advertized. Once home, I managed to flash the alternate BIOS stuff from flashcatjazz, which is really nice looking and gives some nice options to SIDE -- or at least makes the options make sense to a newB.The only thing I'm struggling with now, is that I want to use the APT tools to setup my CF card, but the version of SDX on my Incognito doesn't include those tools. I grabbed the SDX w/ APT for Incognito rom, and uflash.xex won't flash the SDX slot. It reads it then just hangs. I've let it sit like 10 minutes and nothing. Any ideas? Other than that, its great just to be able to run some XL/XE software on my 800 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillC Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 There are 2 different CPU boards for the 800. Your 800 has the board with the 6502B CPU, while the other CPU board uses the same 6502C(AKA Sally) CPU used in the XL/XE models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 Run XRAM on the machine. If you can update one part of the ROM but not another, perhaps there's a memory issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjlazer Posted October 25, 2016 Share Posted October 25, 2016 When and where are these Seattle Retro meets at? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicjay Posted October 25, 2016 Author Share Posted October 25, 2016 When and where are these Seattle Retro meets at? 4th (not the last) Saturday of every month at BlackLodge Research (Hackerspace) in Redmond: http://www.seattleretrocomputing.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicjay Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 Run XRAM on the machine. If you can update one part of the ROM but not another, perhaps there's a memory issue. Let XRAM run with the full 1MB active. It saw it all passed. Would it be worth flashing the full 512K rom you provided in the lastest firmware zip? Does that include all the OS roms, SDX,etc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roydea6 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 After having it sit on the shelf for two years, I finally got around to installing my Incognito board at the Seattle Retro Computing Society meeting this weekend. Total install time was about 4 hours, which included socialization time and talking about the project with several folks. The only thing I'm struggling with now, is that I want to use the APT tools to setup my CF card, but the version of SDX on my Incognito doesn't include those tools. I grabbed the SDX w/ APT for Incognito rom, and uflash.xex won't flash the SDX slot. It reads it then just hangs. I've let it sit like 10 minutes and nothing. Any ideas? Other than that, its great just to be able to run some XL/XE software on my 800 Try using the Disk based APT tools. Just mount the Fdisk tools ATR on drive D1: and run the program that you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+tf_hh Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 The one thing that really threw me, was that my CPU board was completely different from the board pictured in the original instructions. I don't know if it's an NTSC vs PAL thing, or just a revision, but the chips on my board are all oriented with pin 1 at the bottom, rather than the top of the board, so basically 180* different. Not a bit deal, I just counted and grabbed the right pins, since thankfully, the instructions were explicit about pins 9 and 15 being needed. I set some options, saved it turned it off, turned it on and it asked to set options again...not good. I checked the button battery, figuring I didn't have it seated correctly. I pulled the entire Incognito board out of the machine to check as something didn't look quite right. When attempting to remove the battery from the holder, the entire holder popped off the board. I guess I found the issue! I made quick work of that with the soldering iron, popped the battery in, reinstalled the Incognito board and bingo, everything seemed to work as advertized. Once home, I managed to flash the alternate BIOS stuff from flashcatjazz, which is really nice looking and gives some nice options to SIDE -- or at least makes the options make sense to a newB. The only thing I'm struggling with now, is that I want to use the APT tools to setup my CF card, but the version of SDX on my Incognito doesn't include those tools. I grabbed the SDX w/ APT for Incognito rom, and uflash.xex won't flash the SDX slot. It reads it then just hangs. I've let it sit like 10 minutes and nothing. Any ideas? The pictures from Candle´s installation guide shows a PAL CPU board. All PAL CPU boards I´ve ever seen have the 6502C ("Sally") CPU installed. The most NTSC CPU boards I know have the 6502B Standard-CPU and a 74LS245 (?) chip and some more logic to enable ANTIC´s DMA on it. Maybe some of the last production runs of NTSC CPU boards also have the 6502C without DMA-additional logic. After flashing the new BIOS - did you remove the battery again for 5 minutes? Sometimes there are old values stored in the RTC´s NVRAM which may disturb the actual BIOS. I remove the battery, wait 5 minutes and mostly all issues are gone. When you´re flashing the SDX, which device is used for storing the programming files? I suggest only to use a native SIO device (i.e. real floppy disc, SIO2SD or SIO2PC-xxx). Jurgen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicjay Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 Try using the Disk based APT tools. Just mount the Fdisk tools ATR on drive D1: and run the program that you want. Though about that, but wiping and formatting the CF card while having an ATR mounted from the CF card seems like folly. I really need to get on that SIO2PC cable.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Let XRAM run with the full 1MB active. It saw it all passed. Would it be worth flashing the full 512K rom you provided in the lastest firmware zip? Does that include all the OS roms, SDX,etc? Yes: ICFULL.ROM contains everything, but be prepared for a heavy bricking if something goes wrong there. I'm a little puzzled as to why UFLASH is hanging part way through the SDX update process. The SDX file system drivers may be invalidated by the flash, but that's the main reason UFLASH reads the entire image into RAM first. Likewise, updating SDX via a mounted ATR should present no problems providing the machine is rebooted afterwards. I observed a similar issue, however, on an U1MB equipped 800XL from Switzerland which happens to have been beset with issues for the past five years. The most recent problem with that machine was UFLASH locking up during the file reading phase. The culprit appears to be bad RAM on the first-gen U1MB board, since swapping the board fixed the issue (and introduced another, but that's a different story). The owner was sometimes able to flash small ROM images, but SDX presented issues, presumably because it would stray into problem memory areas. After flashing the new BIOS - did you remove the battery again for 5 minutes? Sometimes there are old values stored in the RTC´s NVRAM which may disturb the actual BIOS. Removing the NVRAM is a reasonable troubleshooting step, but old config data should cause no issues with the new BIOS. There is a CRC on the config record (as in the original firmware), and if the CRC is invalid, the entire configuration is erased. I think (offhand) that only bit 0 of the profile number is observed, so even if that value is out of range, nothing crazy should happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikerbob Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Hey Jay, congrats on the install. I did mine and I have been playing with other machines the past while. Once I get my floppies organized I am planning on moving tons of my games to the CF card and loading and playing them that way.. I find it very exciting. I also had the same issues with the CPU board you did.. same thing.. pins the other way around. All worked out fine. I did not have the issues flashing that you have. Only thing I can suggest with Flash's stuff.. make sure you are using the INCOGNITO version and not the U1M (Ultimate 1 meg) version.. they are different. Otherwise all the other advice seems good to me. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Only thing I can suggest with Flash's stuff.. make sure you are using the INCOGNITO version and not the U1M (Ultimate 1 meg) version.. they are different. UFLASH will not flash U1MB firmware to the Incognito or vice versa. SDX (at least in its uncustomised form) is identical for U1MB and Incognito, on the other hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicjay Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 For clarification on how I'm doing the flash.... I'm loading uflash.xex off the fat partition on the cf card directly via the side loader. I also have the .rom files in the root of the cf card. This works fine for flashing the various bis pieces. I did do one set of BIOS from my real 1050 but the SD rom is obviously far too large for that. Should I build an atr with uflash and the rom and try to load it that way? I cant really see how that would make a difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Running UFLASH from a FAT partition and loading the ROMs from the same place is a perfectly safe method and will not be the cause of your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicjay Posted October 28, 2016 Author Share Posted October 28, 2016 Running UFLASH from a FAT partition and loading the ROMs from the same place is a perfectly safe method and will not be the cause of your problem. Good to hear. I pulled the battery as suggested above to no avail. I also pulled down fresh copies to my CF card in case something was corrupted along the way. The same behavior persists, both with your SDX for Incognito and also the stock SDX448 for U1MB/Incognito: it reads the file then hangs. I'm hesitant to try the full flash based on the aforementioned "heavy bricking". Any other suggestions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+tf_hh Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 The same behavior persists, both with your SDX for Incognito and also the stock SDX448 for U1MB/Incognito: it reads the file then hangs. I'm hesitant to try the full flash based on the aforementioned "heavy bricking". In worst case the flash ROM become unusable content and the computer doesn´t start - but the flash is changeable, because it residents in a socket. So you´re safe in most way. Take a look at the flashchip. It is a AMD 29F040B one? Maybe it has a defect. In the last years where I built U1MB and Incognito in several computers sometimes I´ve got problems with the AMD flashchips while writing data to them. In three times I´ve to replace them, because after flash-failure also in a professional programmer (Conitec GALEP-5D) these flashes won´t be writable again. Maybe someone can sent you a replacement flash. The SST39SF040 is very cheap (less then 3 bucks) and well supported by UFLASH and the SDX flash files. If you live in europe, I can sent you one. In the U.S. it´s faster and cheaper (shipping) if somebody else offer it. Jurgen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicjay Posted October 28, 2016 Author Share Posted October 28, 2016 In worst case the flash ROM become unusable content and the computer doesn´t start - but the flash is changeable, because it residents in a socket. So you´re safe in most way. Take a look at the flashchip. It is a AMD 29F040B one? Maybe it has a defect. In the last years where I built U1MB and Incognito in several computers sometimes I´ve got problems with the AMD flashchips while writing data to them. In three times I´ve to replace them, because after flash-failure also in a professional programmer (Conitec GALEP-5D) these flashes won´t be writable again. Maybe someone can sent you a replacement flash. The SST39SF040 is very cheap (less then 3 bucks) and well supported by UFLASH and the SDX flash files. If you live in europe, I can sent you one. In the U.S. it´s faster and cheaper (shipping) if somebody else offer it. Jurgen I checked the chip and its definitely the SST39SF040. I also tried flashing the whole thing and the same behavior is exhibited -- read and hang. I guess, I'll be hunting down a new flash chip.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bikerbob Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Just a question Jay, I know you can do it the way you are doing it from the CF card.. but have you tried it from a floppy? or an SIO2pc drive? if you use that? Just wondering? James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicjay Posted October 28, 2016 Author Share Posted October 28, 2016 Just a question Jay, I know you can do it the way you are doing it from the CF card.. but have you tried it from a floppy? or an SIO2pc drive? if you use that? Just wondering? James I don't have an SIO2SD or an SIO2pc cable, though they are on my list of things to eventually acquire, as such my storage options are: 90K 810 drive 130K 1050 Drive CF Card (All the space!) So, the CF card is my only option at this point. I may just need to wait till next months meeting and put a call out for someone to bring a flash programmer and get a new chip. No big deal, I can mostly enjoy it as is for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbeOwitz Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) I don't have an SIO2SD or an SIO2pc cable, though they are on my list of things to eventually acquire, as such my storage options are: 90K 810 drive 130K 1050 Drive CF Card (All the space!) So, the CF card is my only option at this point. I may just need to wait till next months meeting and put a call out for someone to bring a flash programmer and get a new chip. No big deal, I can mostly enjoy it as is for now. Jason, I had trouble with flashing my U1MB a while ago. I have a programmer, adapter and extra NVRAM chips. Once I flashed it externally, I was able to flash it internally after that... Not sure why... I also have an SIO2PC you can borrow. In the mean time, install AspeQT on your laptop and download the software you'll need... I'll bring it all this month... OR, I can gather up the parts and drop them off someplace convenient...? -Abe Edited November 4, 2016 by AbeOwitz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mechanicjay Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 Jason, I had trouble with flashing my U1MB a while ago. I have a programmer, adapter and extra NVRAM chips. Once I flashed it externally, I was able to flash it internally after that... Not sure why... I also have an SIO2PC you can borrow. In the mean time, install AspeQT on your laptop and download the software you'll need... I'll bring it all this month... OR, I can gather up the parts and drop them off someplace convenient...? -Abe Awesome! I've actually been meaning to send you an email about this very thing! Already have RespeQT on my laptop, since it's great for manipulating the contents of atr files. I'm definitely okay to wait for this month's meeting, plenty to keep me busy in the mean time... --Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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