Framemeister production drawing to a close.

[alex_79]

I think you overreacted. Some of the reply to this topic were just people saying they were sorry the product will be phased out without adding anything to the subject. Why are those more relevant than someone saying that he doesn't care about it, and motivating that by the fact he prefer CRT TVs? It's not that he suggested to buy a CRT as a solution for the discontinuation of the framemeister. He just expressed his opinion about it.

You could have just ignored the post, or explained why you disagree in a civil manner.

And of course when talking about scalers in a retrogaming forum it's very likely that the discussion will also move to CRTs and/or emulation. It comes natural analyzing pros and cons of scalers and digital TVs and therefore talking about alternatives.

Just like when people ask questions about a good CRT for retrogaming, there's always someone who will suggest to consider an upscaler or the emulation route. What's wrong with it?

[Austin]

Just like when people ask questions about a good CRT for retrogaming, there's always someone who will suggest to consider an upscaler or the emulation route. What's wrong with it?

 

There's no problem providing honest suggestions for alternatives. Not everyone thinks about all the angles and might miss one that may actually be beneficial to them. It's when these pricks come off as preachy elitists, that their way is "the only way", is when something's wrong with it.

[godslabrat]

Isn't it a rule that we have to bring up CRTs and Raspberry Pis in every discussion?

[Austin]

Isn't it a rule that we have to bring up CRTs and Raspberry Pis in every discussion?

It sure seems like it.

[Blazing Lazers]

 

uh..... what?

 

This makes absolutely no sense. The whole point of the framemeister is to give SD consoles an HDMI output for use on modern displays. If I want to hook my genesis up to a new 4K samsung, purchasing a HD- crt doesn't remedy that. How are you going to enhance the image (whatever that means) over HDMI if you don't have an upscaler to give you an HDMI signal in the first place? Also, if you're going to bother with a CRT, why wouldn't you just buy a standard definition set to begin with?....

 

Are there actually people HDMI modding NES units only to turn around and use them on a HD crt? That's just bonkers.

 

People buy the Framemeister because they're looking to game on their new tv and not a crt.

 

You're basically saying the solution to gaming on your new tv and not needing crt... is to not game on your new tv and you do need a crt...

 

Only saying that they might become an solution if the Framemeisters become unavailable and/or stupidly expensive. And yes, while is rare, I do know of somebody who has one of those HDMI-modded NES's and who uses it on a HDMI CRT because it has his preferred fullscreen aspect (instead of widescreen) and the colors look better than on an LCD panel. He might change his mind once 4K and beyond sets get a little cheaper.

 

 

I highly doubt it. For one, HD CRTs are huge. Few want these large, hulking devices in their homes anymore. Second, getting consoles HDMI modded is ridiculously expensive (if even an available option, not all have HDMI mods). It's cheaper to buy a quality upscaler and get RGB cables for the consoles that do it out of the box. No retro console does HDMI out of the box.

 

There's a few of us who do- I'm one of them! I still got that really nice set from ya, too

 

Don't some of the newer retro clones have HDMI out? Honestly can't recall at the moment.

 

But yeah, I really do think that this might be a cheaper, if not overly practical, option if there's a sudden scarcity of Framemeisters, or if they spike in price.

[alex_79]

 

There's no problem providing honest suggestions for alternatives. Not everyone thinks about all the angles and might miss one that may actually be beneficial to them. It's when these pricks come off as preachy elitists, that their way is "the only way", is when something's wrong with it.

 

I agree, and that applies to everyone supporting a position in a discussion about any subject.

But even if someone affirms that his way is "the only way" and doesn't add "in my opinion" in every sentence, that doesn't change the fact the no-one is holder of universal thruth (and holding "universal thruth" about videogames wouldn't be much of a big thing in the first place...)

 

But I didn't see anything in this thread that justifies overreacting in that way. It seems to me that someone just decided in advance that whoever doesn't agree with him is an "preachy elitist prick". No point in discussing anything if you don't want to hear anything different from your opinion.

 

And, thanks to the internet, you don't have to. Anyone can create a "Framemeister Church" forum, specify in the rules that mentioning "CRT" will cause immediate ban from the site, and live happily.

 

In a public retrogaming forum, on the other hand, CTRs is a subject that will inevitably brought up almost every time there's a discussion about displays, TVs, upscalers and such. Displays and controllers are a fundamental aspect in videogames, and something retrogaming enthusiasts spend lots of time and money to make the "perfect" (according to their tastes, of course) so they will always generate animated discussions.

Live with it. And try to keep the discussion civil.

 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2016 by alex_79

[keepdreamin]

It's pretty simple really, if someone's asking about suggestions for a specific item it doesn't make sense to interject with something completely different.

 

For example, if someone was having a discussion about sports cars suggestions, you wouldn't butt in and say "you should just get a motorcycle, I like motorcycles". It's egocentric to do that. For something game related, if there was PVM calibration thread I wouldn't jump and say "why don't you just use emulators?". I'm pretty sure they know about emulators, I'm not providing any useful information.

 

If it's just a general setup question sure, recommend anything. But for plugging consoles up to modern TVs, saying "buy a CRT" isn't a solution. You might as well say buy a waffle iron.

[BillLoguidice]

I don't think there's a major issue necessarily with the Framemeister going away, as unfortunate as losing that option will be. I'm sure only a small percentage of us plunked down the significant money it required, not to mention also investing in any additional cables those of us with multi-region systems may demand.

 

We're already seeing multiple one-off HDMI-based solutions for various classic systems, so, barring a universal device like the Framemeister, I would imagine those would be viable options for the vast majority of classic gamers. This should be particularly true if we follow the logic that the vast majority of classic gamers are not like me (who has many hundreds of systems) and only has a handful of favorite systems needing to be used on modern displays. Many of those (and me too) already go out of our way to mod or have modded our classic systems for better video output, so this would be yet another iteration of that. While there are more challenges with converting to HDMI output, it's clear with some of the quality one-off solutions being offered, they're not insurmountable, and should only get easier (relatively) over time.

[ubersaurus]

I generally do my old school gaming on a CRT, but I am thinking of grabbing a Framemeister in the next couple months. I want to be future proofed given that CRTs are no longer produced and HDMI looks like it's going to be around for a while; given modern tvs are cutting even the component jacks it seems like a decent pickup.

 

Plus it would be handy for video capture purposes and for playing games in other locations, heh.

[MrMaddog]

Getting back on the topic, I am sorry to hear that the Framemeister will be no more even though I can't afford one at all. I hope there will be a good HDMI upscaler that will replace it but that's much more affordable, something that's much better than using the HDTV's A/V ports. (I can live without the scanlines as that's for arcade games IMHO).

 

I only posted that thing about HD CRT's to provide infomation to anyone interested and not as a "hipster" thing to use instead of a flatscreen plus upscaler. Maybe it's something that future upscalers can inspire to emulate much like emulators using CRT overlays, who knows.

 

Either way, we're all still playing the same games we love no matter what type of display that's used. Main thing is ok, how do I get it to look like how I originally played it back in the day but still work on my modern equiptment.

[alex_79]

But for plugging consoles up to modern TVs, saying "buy a CRT" isn't a solution. You might as well say buy a waffle iron.

 

That analogy doesn't make sense.

If someone asks "how can I connect my atari 2600 to a 4k TV" I'm inclined to comment "You know, that's a REALLY bad idea in my opinion, why do you want to do that?" and describe the disadvantages of that solution and possible alternatives that include CRTs and emulation. He doesn't have to agree with me, and he might decide to just ignore my comment. Or he can reply why he thinks that my solution is a bad idea. Or simply doesn't fits his needs.

You assume that anyone asking such a question is already aware of every aspect of it and their alternatives. I'm convinced, by reading posts on that argument on various forums, that it's not the case actually. And even if the original poster knows about them, people who recently rediscovered or become intersted in retroconsole and that are reading that thread might not know about that stuff, so it doesn't hurt to repeat things.

 

 

It's surely not the same thing as suggesting to use a waffle iron, don't you think? Even if suggesting to use a CRT it's not a direct answer to the original question, it might be relevant. It depends really on the specific case.

Or are you saying that no-one should be allowed to post other than praises if he wants to partecipate to a thread?

 

 

But as I stated previously, that's not the point. I'm criticizing your reactions. Even if someone's post is "completely" off-topic (not the case here), replying in a rude way always makes you the one at fault.

 

Ok, I stop hijacking this thread, I promise!

[Punisher5.0]

I was on the fence about getting one of these for $350 a couple of months ago. I just checked on ebay and new ones are listed at $700.That's ridiculous and I hope no one pays that much.

[keepdreamin]

That analogy doesn't make sense.

If someone asks "how can I connect my atari 2600 to a 4k TV" I'm inclined to comment "You know, that's a REALLY bad idea in my opinion, why do you want to do that?" and describe the disadvantages of that solution and possible alternatives that include CRTs and emulation. He doesn't have to agree with me, and he might decide to just ignore my comment. Or he can reply why he thinks that my solution is a bad idea. Or simply doesn't fits his needs.

 

You assume that anyone asking such a question is already aware of every aspect of it and their alternatives. I'm convinced, by reading posts on that argument on various forums, that it's not the case actually. And even if the original poster knows about them, people who recently rediscovered or become intersted in retroconsole and that are reading that thread might not know about that stuff, so it doesn't hurt to repeat things.

You ever been car shopping? You ever head to a dealership with a model in mind that you want? Ask a sales person what options they have available for that car, only to be told "oh, you don't want that car, you want this truck" "uh, no I want the car.. " " no you don't, that's a bad idea, you really want the truck"

 

No, I want the car and I'm heading to another dealership.

 

It's the same thing. When someone asks how do I hook up X retro console to my new TV, they're asking just that. Saying to use a CRT isn't answering their question, you're doing the same thing as that car salesman.

[berserkerNES]

Snagged a second iScan Pro off eBay as soon as I heard the news, just to have a backup. After awhile folks are going to have to scour for replacements and alternatives... the old scalers are already getting to be pretty uncommon.

[BillLoguidice]

Snagged a second iScan Pro off eBay as soon as I heard the news, just to have a backup. After awhile folks are going to have to scour for replacements and alternatives... the old scalers are already getting to be pretty uncommon.

 

Do you have a link to the iScan Pro? I'm not turning up anything that appears relevant.

[berserkerNES]

 

Do you have a link to the iScan Pro? I'm not turning up anything that appears relevant.

Silicon Image DVDO iScan Pro. It's an obsolete 15-year-old scaler so there's no company page for it. There are a bunch of different iScan models but the Pro is the cheapest one you can find that accepts component input. Paired with a SCART to YUV transcoder it's no Framemeister, but it handles 240p properly, looks pretty good, and has reasonable input lag. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Silicon-Image-DVDO-iScan-Pro-Progressive-Line-Doubler-MM503A-/172360498083?hash=item28217c7ba3%3Ag%3AFloAAOSwmfhX7-Rf&nma=true&si=MZYxPcCwFLCNPnPAMmN%252BHnITMvo%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[jdollatari]

great discussion i have lusted after a frameister as the wife does not want large crt tvs laying around our tiny house here is hoping someday i can collect again and will have options like the frame meister or perhaps an old crt both seem like they may become increasingly rare and expensive

[keepdreamin]

great discussion i have lusted after a frameister as the wife does not want large crt tvs laying around our tiny house here is hoping someday i can collect again and will have options like the frame meister or perhaps an old crt both seem like they may become increasingly rare and expensive

Another thing to remember is new TVs are dropping analog (even component) inputs completely. So simply letting your new TV handle analog upscaling with say something like HD Retrovision cables or plugging in an original xbox is no longer an option.

 

The Framemeister is currently the most convenient way to add various analog functionality back to HDTVs. It's moved from a luxury item to full blown replacement

Edited December 8, 2016 by keepdreamin

[Bratwurst]

I generally do my old school gaming on a CRT, but I am thinking of grabbing a Framemeister in the next couple months. I want to be future proofed given that CRTs are no longer produced and HDMI looks like it's going to be around for a while; given modern tvs are cutting even the component jacks it seems like a decent pickup.

 

I wouldn't put absolute faith that the HDMI format will stick around for too long, unfortunately. It took nearly half a century for the cathode ray tube to be supplanted by flat screen technology. Sure there were variations and improvements that cropped up but it was a slow and gradual process, coax, composite/s-video, component, then bam, now everything's digital. And if you look around, the prevailing trend has been one of accelerated obsolescence, particularly as of late. Give us a few decades and there might not even be cables and wiring involved at all.

 

I prefer playing games on CRTs myself. They may be abundant, cheap and generally unwanted now but they will not last forever, particularly not the sets manufactured in the 1990s to 2000s, when manufacturers started to care way less about durability and the use of quality components. That attitude has carried over into the flatscreens of today and gotten worse, a necessity of staying profitable in a monstrously competitive market. Food for thought there.

 

Still, the Framemeister is as good as it gets with LCD televisions and I'll probably be getting one now. I was hoping for the next iteration to come along so the price (and demand) might drop on the XRGB-Mini but that's apparently not going to happen. if anything the value is going to get obscene once supplies are exhausted.

[Punisher5.0]

I wouldn't put absolute faith that the HDMI format will stick around for too long, unfortunately. It took nearly half a century for the cathode ray tube to be supplanted by flat screen technology. Sure there were variations and improvements that cropped up but it was a slow and gradual process, coax, composite/s-video, component, then bam, now everything's digital. And if you look around, the prevailing trend has been one of accelerated obsolescence, particularly as of late. Give us a few decades and there might not even be cables and wiring involved at all.

 

I prefer playing games on CRTs myself. They may be abundant, cheap and generally unwanted now but they will not last forever, particularly not the sets manufactured in the 1990s to 2000s, when manufacturers started to care way less about durability and the use of quality components. That attitude has carried over into the flatscreens of today and gotten worse, a necessity of staying profitable in a monstrously competitive market. Food for thought there.

 

Still, the Framemeister is as good as it gets with LCD televisions and I'll probably be getting one now. I was hoping for the next iteration to come along so the price (and demand) might drop on the XRGB-Mini but that's apparently not going to happen. if anything the value is going to get obscene once supplies are exhausted.

Very true. If USB-C can stick then it could replace HDMI.

[ubersaurus]

Hey, as long as I can get a USB-HDMI adapter I'm fine with that - the analog to digital conversion is the hard part, and the framemeister is still the gold standard there.

[SuperDork3000]

The Framemeister was outdated, being limited to a max resolution of 1080P. Maybe a 4K upscaler is in the works?

[keepdreamin]

The Framemeister was outdated, being limited to a max resolution of 1080P. Maybe a 4K upscaler is in the works?

 

Maybe, but none of the individual console HDMI mods do any higher. The OSSC which is a newer product, can't even do more than 720P (if that out of spec mode works at all), so I guess they're outdated as well.

Edited December 23, 2016 by keepdreamin

[Atariboy]

4k tv's seem to handle 1080p upscaling without issue anyways.

[Keatah]

Ultimately the market overall is moving toward having the console/computer generate a signal the current on-market-today display devices can handle.

 

Dot addressable displays are here to stay for the foreseeable future. While games like Combat and Flag Capture and Basic Math may remain a favorite staple among classic gamers, messing around with connections and converters isn't. Today's gamer simply doesn't want the hassle.

 

Using hardware that generates native (to the display) output is becoming the norm. Like it or not it is what is happening. And none of us are going to stop it. It has always been that way. The TV industry didn't make any concessions for gamers in the 70's and 80's and they aren't about to start now. Consoles have always chased after the in-vogue TV standard.