Retroblox

[Bmack36]

That line is unenforceable, every emulator on the planet does/did/will-continue-to-do that and they all are prior art.

You don't believe me: take a Rpi slam on it RetroPie, put it in a box, connect it to your TV via HDMI and use any joypad on USB .... ridiculous.

 

Dumping cart to RAM is not exactly new either is it .... how do they think any game was dumped to begin with ... one bit at a time straight to a floppy/tape?

 

Compound use of FPGA and a micro also is pretty common, check the SD2SNES flash cart (it has a microcontroller to deal with the SD and the USB and the FPGA to perform "some other stuff" ....) by the way the MiST project is/was exactly the same a microcontroller + FPGA. Don't care if they think their split is different, it's nothing new at this stage until they prove they have some real advantage to show for.

I am pretty sure a lot of their claims are unenforceable. The whole thing with using the bus to plug in a new video game system is basically what the colecovision did with the expansion module 1 and expansion module 3.

[godslabrat]

"Bryan: Well, both of them. There's really a lot of issues. Here's the problem with open source software, and we've actually developed all of our own emulators in-house"

[dj_convoy]

"we've actually developed all of our own emulators in-house"

Yeah; they were talking about this before. Yet another reason for skepticism. Edited June 16, 2018 by dj_convoy

[keepdreamin]

RPG Site: So explain to me a little bit about one of the things on the poster is hybrid emulation. So if you wouldn't mind explain a little bit what exactly that is and what parts are driven by the FPGA (Field-Programmable Gate Array) hardware.

 

Bryan: So hybrid emulation at its core is - we are running traditional emulation and that is the way that you would play games that are not inserted into the console. But what hybrid emulation is there's an FPGA that's also on the board and we have a custom memory controller that sits in between the FPGA and the CPU and what that does is it interprets cartridge data directly from the cartridge when it's inserted. So if you have a game that has a special chip on it, like a Super FX chip, rather than trying to emulate that part of the cartridge, we are actually reading that chip directly off of the cartridge itself so that way we're going to get a more accurate reproduction. You're getting wider compatibility and all that sort of thing.

 

This doesn't really make any sense. Running expansion chip games totally in emulation wasn't a problem that needed solving (hi, every SNES emulator and SNES classic). What if an expansion chip game is one you choose to install? Does that mean the normal remaining 99% of cartridge games are handled with traditional emulation?

Edited June 16, 2018 by keepdreamin

[nullity]

 

Patent Reference:

 

"[0081] 6. A game cartridge is easily digitally distinguishable from no cartridge. In step 210 the FPGA, likely in conjunction with the SOC's CPU, is used to check for the presence of a game cartridge.

[0082] 7. A program loop, 212, is created to check all slots for the presence of cartridges.

 

[0083] 8. Once at least one cartridge is found, then in 214 the ROM contents of the cartridge are read into RAM. If there is more than one cartridge inserted then one can be selected by the user. From here the content can be accessed faster than the relatively slower ROM used in typical (especially older) game consoles.

 

[0084] 9. In step 218 a custom GUI is loaded from storage media into RAM and output displayed on the output display device, typically a TV or monitor perhaps using an HDMI output such as 136 shown in FIG. 1 and controlled using one of the Joypad input methods. The interface is designed to assist the user to make various choices about the game before launching. For example whether to activate any cheats, any graphical filters to improve game appearance whether to speed up (overclock) or slow down a game etc.

 

[0085] 10. In step 218 A `Software emulator` to translate the original code and data into appropriate code and data for the new chipset is also loaded into RAM to a separate memory location.

 

[0086] 11. In step 220 the Emulator is launched by passing its start address to the program counter, any configuration options entered by the user into the GUI are passed to this section of code.

 

[0087] 12. The external Joypads in step 222, are read continuously during play and the values passed to the emulator. Output from the emulator is displayed on the Screen in step 224. Should the user press an assigned button(s) on the console or joypad button the user is taken back to the GUI in steps 226 and 228 where they are given the option to Save the RAM contents to Mass Storage device, probably SD card so the game can be loaded at a later date after the machine has been switched off. "

 

I've been on the road and haven't been following the thread, but hopped in and saw this...

 

Public Service Announcement:

These Patent References are not from the Polymega patent. These are from Hyperkin's patent.

 

the UI is awesome, it is much better than any other Plug and play etc. I like that it has some sort of Mobygames.com API (either built in, or accessed through web/updates) and you can see the art of the games, screenshots, description, and they said they will try to put videos too. UI is very pretty.

 

 

I'm pretty sure they created/compiled the game data themselves. That's something they were working on fleshing out last year when I played the prototype, so I don't believe they would have didtched what they had in lieu of a 3rd party API. If they are using anything from 3rd party sources, it would be with permission or licensed.

 

Anywho, it is heartening to hear that you had a mostly positive experience with it at E3. Hope they get the thermal issues sorted out in the final hardware revision!

Edited June 16, 2018 by nullity

[Jaguarandine]

"Bryan: Well, both of them. There's really a lot of issues. Here's the problem with open source software, and we've actually developed all of our own emulators in-house"

Do we need more proof that these guys are disingenuous? That's it for me.

[keepdreamin]

Do we need more proof that these guys are disingenuous? That's it for me.

 

Coming up with a psx, NGCD, snes, PCEngine, Genesis etc.. from scratch all in house in the time frame is quite unbelievable. Unless they've licensed available emulators and claiming them as "in house". Edited June 16, 2018 by keepdreamin

[PikoInteractive]

 

I've been on the road and haven't been following the thread, but hopped in and saw this...

 

Public Service Announcement:

These Patent References are not from the Polymega patent. These are from Hyperkin's patent.

 

 

I'm pretty sure they created/compiled the game data themselves. That's something they were working on fleshing out last year when I played the prototype, so I don't believe they would have didtched what they had in lieu of a 3rd party API. If they are using anything from 3rd party sources, it would be with permission or licensed.

 

Anywho, it is heartening to hear that you had a mostly positive experience with it at E3. Hope they get the thermal issues sorted out in the final hardware revision!

 

Yes I linked the patent on the word Hyperkin, sorry I didn't specify.

 

And Brian told me they were collaborating with Mobygames.

[godslabrat]

If they are using anything from 3rd party sources, it would be with permission or licensed.

!

Upon what do you base this confidence?

[Keatah]

RPG Site: So explain to me a little bit about one of the things on the poster is hybrid emulation. So if you wouldn't mind explain a little bit what exactly that is and what parts are driven by the FPGA (Field-Programmable Gate Array) hardware.

 

Bryan: So hybrid emulation at its core is - we are running traditional emulation and that is the way that you would play games that are not inserted into the console. But what hybrid emulation is there's an FPGA that's also on the board and we have a custom memory controller that sits in between the FPGA and the CPU and what that does is it interprets cartridge data directly from the cartridge when it's inserted. So if you have a game that has a special chip on it, like a Super FX chip, rather than trying to emulate that part of the cartridge, we are actually reading that chip directly off of the cartridge itself so that way we're going to get a more accurate reproduction. You're getting wider compatibility and all that sort of thing.

 

Mmm..I interpret this as two separate methods of emulation.

 

1- Traditional software emulation running ROMS from an SD card. Depending on the exact emulator and its capabilities it may or may not support enhanced chips.

 

2- Cartridges are being fed ->through-> an FPGA + Memory Controller, and are given to the emulator. This would also handle i/o to/from any enhancement chips in the cartridge.

 

The FPGA reads the cartridge and custom chip's processed data and all. The Memory Controller maps this information into the otherwise traditional software emulator. Basically it's a way of playing cartridges in software emulation without dumping or copying them them.

[Keatah]

 

This doesn't really make any sense. Running expansion chip games totally in emulation wasn't a problem that needed solving (hi, every SNES emulator and SNES classic). What if an expansion chip game is one you choose to install? Does that mean the normal remaining 99% of cartridge games are handled with traditional emulation?

 

If you choose to install (copy) the game from cartridge to whatever storage device is in the console then, ok. The question is does their software emulator support virtualized enhancement chips? Does code exist in the emulator to simulate whatever enhancement chip is needed?

 

That should be an easy yes/no question since they say they wrote the emulator?

[nullity]

Upon what do you base this confidence?

 

With their focus on keeping the platform squarely on the right side of the law, improperly using content they did not create would be a really boneheaded thing to do.

 

Besides, it looks like Pico had the inside scoop on this. They are working with Mobygames.

[godslabrat]

With their focus on keeping the platform squarely on the right side of the law, improperly using content they did not create would be a really boneheaded thing to do.

 

Besides, it looks like Pico had the inside scoop on this. They are working with Mobygames.

So... it would be absolutely nothing like Hyperkin insisting the Retron 5 only play games with a cart inserted, to discourage piracy, and then brazenly using stolen emulators?

[nullity]

So... it would be absolutely nothing like Hyperkin insisting the Retron 5 only play games with a cart inserted, to discourage piracy, and then brazenly using stolen emulators?

 

Bingo! Now you're getting it. Totally different companies, plus Playmaji never made such a claim (nor do they use stolen emulators).

[godslabrat]

I'm just not sure how you have all this insight into Playmaji's methods and goals after just having a conversation or two with them.

 

[nullity]

Lol, sick burn, bro.

Did I say I only had conversation or two with them? I thought I said I've talked with Bryan from time to time. We aren't BFFs, but I'd certainly try to meet up for a beer if either of us happened to be in the same area (KS and CA aren't all that close). I've met him IRL once and played the prototype last year. I know him from the turbografx community though neither of us seem to be terribly active in it these days. He strikes me as a good guy, and I have no reason to doubt his intentions or the capability of his team (though I appreciate how his concept of marketing is likely contributing to the skepticism).

If you look at this thing through a different lense, you might not see it as some horrid conspiracy. While I wish more people would give them the benefit of a doubt, I get the skepticism. All I can do is chime in now and then when I see something that seems baseless. When it is released, if it lives up to it's claims, I sincerely hope the people who enjoy what it brings to the table enjoy it, and those who don't like the concept will at least accept that it is a legitimate product and not some kind of scam.

Time will tell.

[Flojomojo]

Well that's awfully reasonable and difficult to argue with. :-)

[godslabrat]

Nullity's all right. I don't agree with him on everything, but he's all right. Even Bryan, I wouldn't describe too harshly. I don't think he's a scammer like Mike Kennedy or Fred Chesnais. I think Bryan is just very tone-deaf to how his marketing looks to someone who doesn't get all their news from polygon.

[Newsdee]

It could still be a trainwreck even if they go in it with the best intentions.

 

Reading carts with an FPGA is common, the Retron5 uses a Xilinx Spartan 3 FPGA for example. If that is the "hybrid" emulation part there is prior art.

 

I have to say the PC Engine CD and Sega CD are interesting. That is different from previous machines so they have a bit of a niche.

 

I am more than willing to support good products so if they pull it off, more power to them. I shall wait for reviews before buying though.

Edited June 17, 2018 by Newsdee

[mr_me]

The hybrid emulation would be interfacing the software emulator with the fpga/cartridge port. If the fpga has it's own hardware emulator, not using the software emulator than it's more like two different emulators than a hybrid emulator.

Edited June 17, 2018 by mr_me

[Keatah]

I don't think they have the in-house expertise to program an emulator in fpga.

[enoofu]

The issue is that the software would be needed to be designed in a Hardware Design Language or some other way that can communicate with the special chips as most emulators out at the moment will not work this way

[Keatah]

So, which emulators do work this way?

[enoofu]

I hear bsnes-mercury Accuracy

[philyso]

Most emulators use memory handlers for CPU emulation (when the decoded instruction performs a bus access, the emulator calls a function which decodes the memory address and simulates the read/write effect depending on the accessed device) so it's not necessarely hard to patch an existing emulator so that any read/write access to the cartridge area calls a specific function that instead communicates with a FPGA through some registers to issue a read or write command on the cartridge interface. From what I understand about 'hybrid emulation', that's pretty much the ONLY thing the FPGA is emulating, that is the control of cartridge interface signals like the original hardware would do to handle read and writes.

 

No, the biggest problem is that existing emulators are not designed to stall while waiting for any cartridge bus access to complete (which would kill the emulator performance and would certainly make it unplayable, even on fastest processors) or alternatively to synchronize emulated components every cartridge bus access (indeed, for hybrid emulation to work, the emulator would have to issue the read or write command then advance the emulation of all other components for a few cycles until the cartridge - and the FPGA driving it - is ready to return data or has acknowledged the write access). I would definitively love to be proven wrong and see the proof it is indeed working as claimed, but I have serious doubts that 1) this could run at acceptable speed on their base hardware and 2) they had the time to make in-house (or even modify existing) emulators that do access to cartridges in real time.