Retroblox

[Keatah]

Because they are using off-the-shelf, not-designed-for-videogames, USB and Bluetooth hardware - there is excess lag. These protocols weren't designed with instantaneous sub-ms response times. There's protocols and ack/nak involved and a multiple programs running on microcontrollers. All of that has to sync up and follow communication rules and conventions.

 

Early wireless controllers for videogames were different. Their transmitters were simple radio circuits that emitted tones that, when decoded, indicated direction or position. This decoding took place with mostly discrete RF components/circuits. It worked as fast as the electrons could move. Essentially. No processing time involved.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Keatah

[derFunkenstein]

For you non-believers and skeptics, Polymega has provided "proof" of the low input lag via these 240p test suite numbers they achieved:

 

"Just fired up the 240p test suite (TGCD version) and got 10/10, 7/10, 8/10 (Latency=0 frames) using a wired PCE Avenue Pad 6 plugged into the EM04 module. 14/10, 18/10, 18/10 (Latency=1 frame) using the pack in Wireless Controller over USB. Monitor is a BENQ RL2460."

https://twitter.com/polymegaHQ/status/1044744412083830784

 

 

Do they not know you can game the 240p by pressing the button early? Maybe they do but they don't think we know that.

 

edit: first couple responses to the tweet point that out.

Edited September 27, 2018 by derFunkenstein

[atm94404]

For you non-believers and skeptics, Polymega has provided "proof" of the low input lag via these 240p test suite numbers they achieved:

 

"Just fired up the 240p test suite (TGCD version) and got 10/10, 7/10, 8/10 (Latency=0 frames) using a wired PCE Avenue Pad 6 plugged into the EM04 module. 14/10, 18/10, 18/10 (Latency=1 frame) using the pack in Wireless Controller over USB. Monitor is a BENQ RL2460."

https://twitter.com/polymegaHQ/status/1044744412083830784

 

 

So they have time to download and run a specialized benchmark on their "custom" OS (possibly requiring that they modify and recompile the code for their "custom" hardware), write down the results, and post them (and even look up the exact model number of the monitor) BUT they're too busy to take out an iPhone and record somebody inserting a Saturn disc into their allegedly complete console and show it boot up from scratch (instead of loading from a save state)? Riiiiiight...

[phoenixdownita]

"using the pack in Wireless Controller over USB"

what does it mean? How about just wireless (no USB hook)? How much of a delay is that?

If it comes to 2 or 3 frames then MOST games would become nary unplayable and wired would be really the only option making the "wireless" controller well ... useless in wireless mode ....

[Silanda]

 

So they have time to download and run a specialized benchmark on their "custom" OS (possibly requiring that they modify and recompile the code for their "custom" hardware), write down the results, and post them (and even look up the exact model number of the monitor) BUT they're too busy to take out an iPhone and record somebody inserting a Saturn disc into their allegedly complete console and show it boot up from scratch (instead of loading from a save state)? Riiiiiight...

 

Don't forget time to do interviews!

 

This is the thing I find most suspicious at this point. If everything with regards to this project is how they are trying to portray it, why not do a very simple thing and show what people have asked to see? I'm just left with the impression that they either don't have completed hardware, don't have working HLE BIOS emulation yet, or both. They could actually come clean and be open about it if either of those are true, but it would call that projected launch date into question (especially a potential lack of finished hardware).

[elmer]

Well, this morning's pre-order total hit $500,782. So they've made their initial goal ... congratulations to them!

 

It reminds me of the old proverb "A fool and his money are soon parted."

 

 

For us skeptics, that means that this show will contine on for a while longer, and we'll get the chance to see if they can ever really design a new motherboard around the Intel chip, and what solution (if any) they come up with to deal with the overheating that new chip is going to cause in their desired enclosure.

 

If this thing actually ships on April 1st (or ever), then I'll be looking forward to seeing the reviews and teardowns to see what else they backtrack on in the meantime.

 

For instance, I'm betting that the modules themselves just end up as USB-based cartridge/joystick readers, no different from what you can already buy from China for your current PC.

Edited September 28, 2018 by elmer

[DurradonXylles]

Well, this morning's pre-order total hit $500,782. So they've made their initial goal ... congratulations to them!It reminds me of the old proverb "A fool and his money are soon parted."

Or, as famous showman P.T. Barnum once apparently stated: "There's a sucker born every minute."

Edited September 28, 2018 by DurradonXylles

[Keatah]

For us skeptics, that means that this show will contine on for a while longer, and we'll get the chance to see if they can ever really design a new motherboard around the Intel chip, and what solution (if any) they come up with to deal with the overheating that new chip is going to cause in their desired enclosure.

 

Designing a 4-layer motherboard around an intel chip is a rather complex endeavor. It has been this way ever since the 286 came into existence decades ago. And then you must write a BIOS for it. Test it and debug it. And intel never really supported the hobbyist much outside of school grants and funding - and even those encouraged buying low-cost "laptop-for-everyone" types of systems.

 

Working with intel is not like working with ARM/Linux and R-Pi types of experimenter hardware. Intel likes to work with system integrators and motherboard manufacturers. In volume. Not a pissant videogame company wannabe.

 

BUT! There are many ready-made low-cost Atom-class SoCs and cheap single board computers already available. Dreamcade went this way.

[derFunkenstein]

Designing a 4-layer motherboard around an intel chip is a rather complex endeavor. It has been this way ever since the 286 came into existence decades ago. And then you must write a BIOS for it. Test it and debug it. And intel never really supported the hobbyist much outside of school grants and funding - and even those encouraged buying low-cost "laptop-for-everyone" types of systems.

 

Working with intel is not like working with ARM/Linux and R-Pi types of experimenter hardware. Intel likes to work with system integrators and motherboard manufacturers. In volume. Not a pissant videogame company wannabe.

 

BUT! There are many ready-made low-cost Atom-class SoCs and cheap single board computers already available. Dreamcade went this way.

 

Exactly. That's why any price Intel quotes on the ARK website is per-unit for 1000-unit trays. Playmaji, at this point, needs approximately two of those trays and that's it. They'll get those from a wholesaler, not from Intel directly. And if they have to have those CPUs mounted on motherboards, they'll have to go to some low-volume manufaturer to get those built. That's going to cost them a lot.

[godslabrat]

"Well, we decided that in order to get that amazing Saturn Compatibility, we really needed to go for a rebranded Dreamcade box, since that's what real gamers want anyway."

[derFunkenstein]

"Well, we decided that in order to get that amazing Saturn Compatibility, we really needed to go for a rebranded Dreamcade box, since that's what real gamers want anyway."

 

that seems to be what they're doing, but it's wild. Why don't the people who want this just buy a NUC and make a USB stick with Lakka?

[Keatah]

There's still the "wintel PC" stigma surrounding even NUCs. And "PC" is very scary to many people in this era of tablets & smartphones. Most NUCs come pre-shipped with Windows10, and no gamer wants an OS that constantly updates itself on a weekly basis. Linux is usually an option from NUC resellers, but Linux-for-PC is too technical for anyone other than hobbyists.

 

So, you have all these upstart kickstarters trying to duplicate the functionality of a box of emulators. At first they start with custom hardware and a custom OS in attempt to differentiate themselves and gain recognition. Then they find it's rather difficult. Amid much criticism and circus antics they convert to off-the-shelf hardware and OS'es. And you get your PC-based box of emulators in the end..

Edited September 28, 2018 by Keatah

[godslabrat]

There's still the "wintel PC" stigma surrounding even NUCs. And "PC" is very scary to many people in this era of tablets & smartphones.

It will only become more so the longer people become accustomed to walled gardens and apps. Note that I don't view this as a bad thing.

 

PCs will once again be for the people who really care about the tech.

[Flojomojo]

I used to be the Johnny Appleseed for Ubuntu around our workplace, ordering and distributing installation CDs to everyone I saw. It's a bit harder with USB sticks, unfortunately.

[Keatah]

It will only become more so the longer people become accustomed to walled gardens and apps. Note that I don't view this as a bad thing.

PCs will once again be for the people who really care about the tech.

 

For things that you want to be functional and simple and work instantly walled gardens are alright. Perhaps even preferred. Especially ones that are already established like iOS/Apple. I just got an iPhone over the summer and thoroughly make use of the readily available camera and note-taking features. Not to mention the calculator, compass, and various other things. BTW, the iPhone camera is the #1 used and most popular and liked camera in the entire world.

 

People might bitch and moan and always find something to complain about. But when I need to make a photo record of something I have that capability. I feel it's reliable enough to replace my PNS camera. And it will do videos and voice recordings too. It's what the first PDAs aspired to be but never achieved because of tech limitations.

 

That's not to say I don't appreciate the engineering that goes into the tiny camera, or the A-series SoC which contains 6 billion transistors has low power consumption.

 

---

 

As long as I view the iPhone as a communications device and personal assistant and develop no interest in hacking it I'll probably happy with it. Quite content to leave the details to those cubicle-creatures at Apple.

[godslabrat]

 

For things that you want to be functional and simple and work instantly walled gardens are alright. Perhaps even preferred. Especially ones that are already established like iOS/Apple. I just got an iPhone over the summer and thoroughly make use of the readily available camera and note-taking features. Not to mention the calculator, compass, and various other things. BTW, the iPhone camera is the #1 used and most popular and liked camera in the entire world.

 

People might bitch and moan and always find something to complain about. But when I need to make a photo record of something I have that capability. I feel it's reliable enough to replace my PNS camera. And it will do videos and voice recordings too. It's what the first PDAs aspired to be but never achieved because of tech limitations.

 

That's not to say I don't appreciate the engineering that goes into the tiny camera, or the A-series SoC which contains 6 billion transistors has low power consumption.

 

---

 

As long as I view the iPhone as a communications device and personal assistant and develop no interest in hacking it I'll probably happy with it. Quite content to leave the details to those cubicle-creatures at Apple.

I love computers, but about 10 years ago, I realized the things I liked were not the things everyone else liked. 99% of people who bought computers in the early 2000s were buying a machine to visit google and check e-mail. Even a base PC is way more than is needed for such tasks, and I would suggest that the vulnerabilities in untrained hands will lead to more harm than good. These people are seeking appliances, not computers, it's just that computers were the only options offered until pretty recently. Now they're getting the appliances they really needed all along.

[Keatah]

Yes. The PC industry (immediately pre & post dotcom) profited heavily from promising those appliances but instead delivered fludges and kludges. Or so it seemed.

 

I remember the first Win95 laptops with plug-in PCMCIA GPS cards and external antennas and a mouse AND a car power adapter. You even had GPS card drivers and map interfaces. And the mapping software (DeLorme) was supplied by yet another 3rd party with the database sourced from what felt like a 4th party (NavTeq). While I'm sure all that proved useful to some niche professionals or hobbyists there was no way in hell the average consumer would hit it off with that RubeGoldberg setup.

[godslabrat]

Yes. The PC industry (immediately pre & post dotcom) profited heavily from promising those appliances but instead delivered fludges and kludges. Or so it seemed.

 

I remember the first Win95 laptops with plug-in PCMCIA GPS cards and external antennas and a mouse AND a car power adapter. You even had GPS card drivers and map interfaces. And the mapping software (DeLorme) was supplied by yet another 3rd party with the database sourced from what felt like a 4th party (NavTeq). While I'm sure all that proved useful to some niche professionals or hobbyists there was no way in hell the average consumer would hit it off with that RubeGoldberg setup.

Reminds me of when I moved from PA to OK, navigating by mapquest print offs and occasionally opening my laptop to Microsoft Streets and Trips 2005. The time from then until standalone GPS units were practical and affordable was measured in months... :-/

[Rocket Man]

So, is this thing like the Analogue NT, with zero lag and near perfect emulation of the original hardware? Is it FPGA based or is it simply a bunch of Emulators packed in a piece of hardware?

[cybercylon]

So given the stated complexity of trying to switch gears to an intel chip and the cost involved... that looks like more nails going into a the coffin where a sleeping Ataribox and Coleco Chameleon shells have already laid down to rest.

Edited September 29, 2018 by cybercylon

[godslabrat]

It's a Retron 5, with some extremely expensive (and likely never to exist) accessories.

[Keatah]

So, is this thing like the Analogue NT, with zero lag and near perfect emulation of the original hardware? Is it FPGA based or is it simply a bunch of Emulators packed in a piece of hardware?

 

Right now it's nothing. Anyone's guess is as good as the next.

[Keatah]

So given the stated complexity of trying to switch gears to an intel chip and the cost involved... that looks like more nails going into a the coffin where a sleeping Ataribox and Coleco Chameleon shells have already laid down to rest.

 

Switching to an intel-based processor is easy. Just do what Dreamcade did and purchase a ready-made small-form-factor computer and put your name on it. Intel even sells bare-bones NUCs that you can plug things into and build a system. You can plug in things like USB peripherals and even RAM!! Not to mention hard disks and SSDs!!

 

No need to design a motherboard or bios or any of the computery type parts. Cart reader modules wouldn't be that hard though. Playmargarine are big boys and they can do that themselves.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Keatah

[derFunkenstein]

It's a Retron 5, with some extremely expensive (and likely never to exist) accessories.

If the accessories never ship this post is an insult to the Retron5 LMAO

[elmer]

So, is this thing like the Analogue NT, with zero lag and near perfect emulation of the original hardware? Is it FPGA based or is it simply a bunch of Emulators packed in a piece of hardware?

It was never, ever, going to be pure-FPGA like the Analogue NT.

 

It was going to have an FPGA on-board to allow their software emulators to read from original cartridges in real time and supposedly provide better-than-pure-software emulation ... but that idea was officially dropped the day that the pre-orders started.

 

As of right now, it seems (from their own descriptions) to be just a bunch of licensed software emulators running on a SFF PC-compatible motherboard, with a small FPGA that will be used to dump complete ROM images from cartridges before the emulation software starts (just like a Retrode 2).

 

So ... not really any different from what you can put together yourself for cheaper, except for their pretty interface and the promise of the online store, if that ever launches, and if they can license the ROMs to sell on it (don't ever expect to see any of Nintendo's own titles).

 

 

Designing a 4-layer motherboard around an intel chip is a rather complex endeavor. It has been this way ever since the 286 came into existence decades ago. And then you must write a BIOS for it. Test it and debug it. And intel never really supported the hobbyist much outside of school grants and funding - and even those encouraged buying low-cost "laptop-for-everyone" types of systems.

 

Working with intel is not like working with ARM/Linux and R-Pi types of experimenter hardware. Intel likes to work with system integrators and motherboard manufacturers. In volume. Not a pissant videogame company wannabe.

 

BUT! There are many ready-made low-cost Atom-class SoCs and cheap single board computers already available. Dreamcade went this way.

Yep, with the difficulties of Intel hardware design, I'm also someone that would expect them to just buy some small-form-factor SBC motherboard off-the-shelf.

 

But I can't find any existing Intel SBC motherboards that match the specs that Polymega are describing, or could fit in their price range

 

The LattePanda is the closest that I could find, but it is reported as being rather unstable, and it doesn't run the Intel processor that Playmaji want to use anyway. Another one is Axiomtek's CAPA500 SBC board ... but that board is over $400 by itself, without a processor!

 

Anyway, Polymega posted new information on their FB page yesterday that suggests that they aren't buying an off-the-shelf board, and really are making a custom board ...

 

 

 

Hold on folks ... let's read that post carefully ...

 

Playmaji/Polymega just confirmed that the hardware shown at E3 (before Eric quit as CTO), was the ARM hardware that they've been showing for the last year.

 

Playmaji/Polymega also just confirmed that they don't currently have working hardware boards that match the new Intel-based specs that people are pre-ordering, i.e. there is no working prototype of the shipping configuration!!!

 

So ... what have they been using to take all of the Saturn videos???