NTSC core for VBXE?

[flashjazzcat]

5 minutes ago, leech said:

The only thing that would then be missing is the (hated) NTSC Artifacting emulation.

This is why you keep your composite video out.

 

Is there a palette linked in this thread so I can get to work on this?

 

EDIT: Have we settled on Herb's contemporary palette, at least to be getting on with?

Edited January 6, 2021 by flashjazzcat

[+DrVenkman]

16 minutes ago, leech said:

The only thing that would then be missing is the (hated) NTSC Artifacting emulation.

Hated? Pfft. That’s the charm of NTSC RF and composite video. That is always available through the ordinary video output. VBXE is about high res CLEAN RGB video. 

[+DrVenkman]

16 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Have we settled on Herb's contemporary palette, at least to be getting on with?

I think most folks in NTSC-land think it’s the best compromise. Of course it’s straight from Avery’s wonderful work on Altirra. 

[flashjazzcat]

OK: I'll use that until informed otherwise.

 

[leech]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

This is why you keep your composite video out.

 

Is there a palette linked in this thread so I can get to work on this?

 

EDIT: Have we settled on Herb's contemporary palette, at least to be getting on with?

Ha, you were the one who killed my composite.  ?

 

Yeah, that pallette seemed good.

[flashjazzcat]

8 minutes ago, leech said:

Ha, you were the one who killed my composite.

My apologies. Wanting artifacting and VBXE on the same machine still seems to me something of an oxymoron.

[leech]

7 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

My apologies. Wanting artifacting and VBXE on the same machine still seems to me something of an oxymoron.

No worries, I have other machines.  Just means I tend to use the upgraded one less.  Though it apparently is one of the special ones where the Rapidus works correctly with the U1MB. 

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, leech said:

The only thing that would then be missing is the (hated) NTSC Artifacting emulation.

I understand what's behind wanting this, but to me relying on artifacting to produce more colors always seemed like putting a band aid on it, or a regression of sorts.

 

Let me explain why I feel this way (warning this a bit of a long story)..

 

When I was growing up and learning electronics starting at around age 13-14, I got into building tube audio amplifiers. At first like any teenager of the time, I wanted to produce the maximum bass that I could, but later as I learned more I began to focus on clarity throughout the audio range of frequencies, and then later still how to amplify without altering the input signal characteristics what so ever. Once I traveled down this path I could not go back without noticeably hearing the difference. I was forever changed, something that would also happen to me when I got into Atari computers.

 

When I got my first Atari it was a 400, which as most of you know only had an RF output. At first I didn't notice the poor video quality of such, but after I went to a computer show and started seeing high resolution composite monitor displays, coming back to my Atari's RF output to a TV screen became unwatchable to me. So I purchased a green screen monitor and figured out how to connect to my Atari 400 through a hit and miss probing method, because I hadn't quite picked up on how video really worked at the time.

 

My early attempt at creating a luma only composite output from the 400 worked more or less, but without implementing a true 75 ohm driver circuit it did have a few issues. But even so, it was far superior in clarity than what I'd seen over the RF/TV connection. So a couple of years later I saw that the Atari 800 was being sold at close-out, finally coming in at a price point I could afford. I bought one and then went in search of a 2nd hand 'color' composite monitor to use with it, since the 800 had video outputs built-in. I found one going for $100, and immediately purchased it. I'm thinking this will be great finally having high quality color and all! However I was soon to be disappointed.

 

Unbeknownst to me at the time, I didn't realize that I should have been looking for an S-Video (separate luma and chroma input) monitor instead of the composite only one I had picked up. So when I first connected and powered up the Atari 800 connected to the new monitor, the picture appeared fuzzy due to the inadvertent artifacting that was occurring because of the composite input signal. It would be several years later until I was actually able to afford a suitable monitor in a 2nd hand Commodore 1702, which made my Atari video everything I had wanted it to be at the time.

 

Since that time, I have learned a lot about how to produce a very clean S-Video output from any Atari, and have put that knowledge to use in the design of my latest creation the 576NUC+. And just like what happened to my audio 'ear', my video 'eye' now knows how good an Atari image can really be with a good video output and monitor. I could never go back to using a composite only color monitor unless there were no other choice. The same could be said for the VBXE or Sophia when a suitable monitor for that is available. To me artifacting looks like crap compared to a non-artifacting S-Video display. Yes you get more colors in the higher resolution GTIA modes, but doing so in my opinion results in an image that looks to be of a lower resolution due to the color smearing effect this creates. To then emulate this effect in the VBXE or Sophia would seem to defeat the whole purpose of these devices and be regression, not an improvement.

 

 

[flashjazzcat]

4 minutes ago, leech said:

No worries, I have other machines.  Just means I tend to use the upgraded one less. 

You'll have to remind me of the initial motivation for putting VBXE in the machine in the first place. I assume it's an XE which loses composite when the RF modulator is removed, as it must reasonably be to make room for an additional monitor jack... unless you completely replace the legacy monitor jack, in which case you lose s-video and composite both.

 

Note: UAV is a good way of getting composite and better s-video into the bargain.

Edited January 6, 2021 by flashjazzcat

[leech]

1 hour ago, DrVenkman said:

Hated? Pfft. That’s the charm of NTSC RF and composite video. That is always available through the ordinary video output. VBXE is about high res CLEAN RGB video. 

I wish I had time, I want to put together a list of games that use artifacting, but yeah there have been a few people that just trash it and NTSC when I have mentioned it.

[+DrVenkman]

3 minutes ago, leech said:

I wish I had time, I want to put together a list of games that use artifacting, but yeah there have been a few people that just trash it and NTSC when I have mentioned it.

Yeah, I know. Sublogic Flight Simulator II is a perfect example. Looks great through composite with color artifacts; looks like ass through Chroma/Luma.  But I don’t intend to play it seriously these days, and if I did, I’d simply connect a standard composite monitor cable up to my machine, or use a second one without VBXE installed. 

[leech]

5 minutes ago, mytek said:

I understand what's behind wanting this, but to me relying on artifacting to produce more colors always seemed like putting a band aid on it, or a regression of sorts.

 

Let me explain why I feel this way (warning this a bit of a long story)..

 

When I was growing up and learning electronics starting at around age 13-14, I got into building tube audio amplifiers. At first like any teenager of the time, I wanted to produce the maximum bass that I could, but later as I learned more I began to focus on clarity throughout the audio range of frequencies, and then later still how to amplify without altering the input signal characteristics what so ever. Once I traveled down this path I could not go back without noticeably hearing the difference. I was forever changed, something that would also happen to me when I got into Atari computers.

 

When I got my first Atari it was a 400, which as most of you know only had an RF output. At first I didn't notice the poor video quality of such, but after I went to a computer show and started seeing high resolution composite monitor displays, coming back to my Atari's RF output to a TV screen became unwatchable to me. So I purchased a green screen monitor and figured out how to connect to my Atari 400 through a hit and miss probing method, because I hadn't quite picked up on how video really worked at the time.

 

My early attempt at creating a luma only composite output from the 400 worked more or less, but without implementing a true 75 ohm driver circuit it did have a few issues. But even so, it was far superior in clarity than what I'd seen over the RF/TV connection. So a couple of years later I saw that the Atari 800 was being sold at close-out, finally coming in at a price point I could afford. I bought one and then went in search of a 2nd hand 'color' composite monitor to use with it, since the 800 had video outputs built-in. I found one going for $100, and immediately purchased it. I'm thinking this will be great finally having high quality color and all! However I was soon to be disappointed.

 

Unbeknownst to me at the time, I didn't realize that I should have been looking for an S-Video (separate luma and chroma input) monitor instead of the composite only one I had picked up. So when I first connected and powered up the Atari 800 connected to the new monitor, the picture appeared fuzzy due to the inadvertent artifacting that was occurring because of the composite input signal. It would be several years later until I was actually able to afford a suitable monitor in a 2nd hand Commodore 1702, which made my Atari video everything I had wanted it to be at the time.

 

Since that time, I have learned a lot about how to produce a very clean S-Video output from any Atari, and have put that knowledge to use in the design of my latest creation the 576NUC+. And just like what happened to my audio 'ear', my video 'eye' now knows how good an Atari image can really be with a good video output and monitor. I could never go back to using a composite only color monitor unless there were no other choice. The same could be said for the VBXE or Sophia when a suitable monitor for that is available. To me artifacting looks like crap compared to a non-artifacting S-Video display. Yes you get more colors in the higher resolution GTIA modes, but doing so in my opinion results in an image that looks to be of a lower resolution due to the color smearing effect this creates. To then emulate this effect in the VBXE or Sophia would seem to defeat the whole purpose of these devices and be regression, not an improvement.

 

 

The problem is then you remove all color for certain things, making them look even worse.  I think what we need is for someone with insane talent to create a sort of 'NTSC signal emulator' within one of the FPGA upgrades so you can get the cleanest display without losing functionality.

No idea how possible that is, but Altirra and Atari800 can both fake it, so it seems somehow possible, even if it worked like Translator and was something that you just load before you load the game you try to play.

[leech]

5 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

Yeah, I know. Sublogic Flight Simulator II is a perfect example. Looks great through composite with color artifacts; looks like ass through Chroma/Luma.  But I don’t intend to play it seriously these days, and if I did, I’d simply connect a standard composite monitor cable up to my machine, or use a second one without VBXE installed. 

at least we got a patched version of Lode Runner that looks correct on the VBXE. 

[+mytek]

16 minutes ago, leech said:

The problem is then you remove all color for certain things, making them look even worse.  I think what we need is for someone with insane talent to create a sort of 'NTSC signal emulator' within one of the FPGA upgrades so you can get the cleanest display without losing functionality.

No idea how possible that is, but Altirra and Atari800 can both fake it, so it seems somehow possible, even if it worked like Translator and was something that you just load before you load the game you try to play.

I know the idea of this has been talked about many times in relationship to both the VBXE and the Sophia, but probably because of the Atari's normally built-in ability to render a composite image, this will probably never happen. Keep in mind that the focus of these alternative video upgrades is to produce as high of a quality signal (better than S-Video) as in what the Sophia is all about, or to also add on top of that enhanced resolution, number of colors, and graphics speed as the VBXE does. Both of those upgrades still allow full use of the composite video output, and it is presumed that can be used in parallel.

 

I guess what is behind your request is to have a single monitor that will work for both situations without the need for any switching done on the users part.

 

[+Stephen]

Ive seen stranger things sold.  Such as, a high dollar tube based pre-amp and amp, that then feeds in a compressed bluetooth audio signal.  To me, that's like spending crazy ass money on an 8k TV and then using a VHS as your video source.

[leech]

36 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

You'll have to remind me of the initial motivation for putting VBXE in the machine in the first place. I assume it's an XE which loses composite when the RF modulator is removed, as it must reasonably be to make room for an additional monitor jack... unless you completely replace the legacy monitor jack, in which case you lose s-video and composite both.

 

Note: UAV is a good way of getting composite and better s-video into the bargain.

I was trying to ask how to get UAV working in it (I tried but failed) but the monitor jack is still there, but the RF is gone.

[flashjazzcat]

1 minute ago, leech said:

I was trying to ask how to get UAV working in it (I tried but failed) but the monitor jack is still there, but the RF is gone.

You don't need the RF modulator to get composite out of the UAV. If you overcome the installation problems, the VBXE machine will do everything you want.

[leech]

3 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

You don't need the RF modulator to get composite out of the UAV. If you overcome the installation problems, the VBXE machine will do everything you want.

I will start a separate thread (though I thought maybe I had).  I just know when I put the UAV in, it did not output anything.  Still have it sitting on my desk, and haven't worked on the 130xe in a while.

[bfollowell]

So, as long as you still have the original video, you can still use it for artifacting with the VBXE installed, but that's assuming you're using an original CRT display, correct? I was thinking that artifacting didn't work, even when using composite, if your display was, say, a newer Samsung LCD TV. Am I wrong in that assumption?

 

[flashjazzcat]

It should work with any compatible display.

 

[wildstar87]

I really hope that we can still get an updated core (with the memory upgrade enabled) as well, since there seems to be agreement.

[leech]

49 minutes ago, mytek said:

I know the idea of this has been talked about many times in relationship to both the VBXE and the Sophia, but probably because of the Atari's normally built-in ability to render a composite image, this will probably never happen. Keep in mind that the focus of these alternative video upgrades is to produce as high of a quality signal (better than S-Video) as in what the Sophia is all about, or to also add on top of that enhanced resolution, number of colors, and graphics speed as the VBXE does. Both of those upgrades still allow full use of the composite video output, and it is presumed that can be used in parallel.

 

I guess what is behind your request is to have a single monitor that will work for both situations without the need for any switching done on the users part.

 

Correct, and getting the benefit of a sharp image with the blended colors.  Not sure how possible that would be, but would give us the best of both worlds.

[leech]

25 minutes ago, bfollowell said:

So, as long as you still have the original video, you can still use it for artifacting with the VBXE installed, but that's assuming you're using an original CRT display, correct? I was thinking that artifacting didn't work, even when using composite, if your display was, say, a newer Samsung LCD TV. Am I wrong in that assumption?

 

Yeah, I mean I have the VBXE connected to a 1084S, so I would just flip a button to switch to composite or LUMA / CHROMA seperated if I could get the output working again.

[+DrVenkman]

37 minutes ago, wildstar87 said:

I really hope that we can still get an updated core (with the memory upgrade enabled) as well, since there seems to be agreement.

All of the discussion this past summer was for a core with an NTSC palette; it was never really about any memory expansion. 

[bfollowell]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

It should work with any compatible display.

 

OK. For some reason, I thought artifacting was a quirk of CRT technology and I didn’t think it worked in newer LCD/LED technology. I’m not sure why I thought that or where I got the idea.