New Atari Console that Ataribox?

[Flojomojo]

A focus on fun, not specs is a fine way to approach games hardware.
 

It's been Nintendo's approach since the 1989 GameBoy. It's an important part of Android and iOS games.

 

I'd say that apart from the big dogs that can afford to lose money on research/development and marketing, the future is hardware agnostic. A $200+ box that only plays games, friendly or not, seems like something out of the long-defunct Sears Wish Book to me. 

 

There's a whole world of web-based casual games like http://io.games/ and a crazy subculture of (soon to be deprecated)  Flash stuff on Newgrounds. It's all accessible from a Chromebook or library computer, and in my experience this is what mainstream kids are playing, on hardware they already have for school. The race to the bottom on mobile obliterated the market for non-freemium casual games and it's a miracle that the same thing is not happening on the Switch eShop. Kids love free stuff and they'll sit through shitty ads to get it. 
 

"Atari's" Arzt recently said that cloud streaming validates their approach, when we can all see that the exact opposite is true. When services are completely hardware agnostic, why buy their thing with its obvious limitations?

 

By being a physical box with a ~$200 barrier to entry, Amico is hobbled out of the gate, but at least TT et al have a dream and vision that justifies its existence. They've got a long difficult road ahead (their early download numbers for their free demo app are not a good sign) but showing some heart must count for something? Good will, if not good sales?
 

I know we have said it again and again, but without software, there's no reason for Atari VCS to exist. It's no longer 1982, the Atari brand is neither necessary nor sufficient to do cool things. If it were just a gambit to sell off the brand, that ship has sailed. They need to meet the "make product" scenario head on, put up or shut up. 
 

"Atari" must show some games or GTFO. 

[TankedThomas]

Long post time. Less pictures but better formatting this time. Just because.

 

The Atari VCS project is wrapping up a phase of intense engineering validation testing, commonly referred to as “EVT,” which is used to confirm and correct every aspect of the hardware and how it operates as a device, independent of the software, such as games and apps that will eventually run on it.

Translation: "The hardware is unfinished, and we have no software."

 

There are many things to check, validate and potentially correct during the EVT phase. Sometimes they are just subtle tweaks, and other times they are genuine course corrections that require the engineers to completely rethink how they approached something in the original design.

In other words, they hadn't finished the hardware and paid a bunch of Chinese factory workers to figure out this shit for them (and, as we see later on, it seems even that isn't finished yet).

 

Before the product team can undertake the production run for EVT, they get all the various parts and sub-assemblies collected and coordinated with suppliers. Much of this process was described in our

“Plastics, Thermals and Internals” blog. As we said in that report, the plastic housings and fascia pieces are the very last things to be addressed. The units shown here today still have the shiny plastics of pre-production that we have described previously. The finished Atari VCS units will look super-premium, with all the beautiful matte surfaces, rich wood fascias, and other details everyone expects.

I thought they said this was all sorted months ago? Now they're changing their tune. What are these "other details"? Definitely not those four horizontal lights on the front of the system - those aren't on the PCB, so they won't be in the final product. Yay false advertising!

While all of that preparation work and component collection is going on, the factory team is busy planning for how the final assembly line processes will go. They carefully develop plans for how all the parts are stored, handled and deployed through every step of the process. This includes creating jigs and guides and determining the best order of assembly, deciding when and where they will use automation (yes, there are numerous robots, plus also many conveyor belts and other factory machines available) versus skilled human workers. The EVT line is essentially the factory’s dress rehearsal of the manufacturing process or “box build” assembly line.

Another major red flag here: as they go onto show, even the jigs and such for "mass" production haven't even been made yet. There appear to be a couple of prototypes in the photos. The rest are all CAD mock-ups.

In other words, they're still in the PLANNING phase for production. This is where we thought they were at least two months ago. There's absolutely no way these things will be mass produced by March at this rate.

We'll come back to this.

 

For EVT, the factory puts their proposed assembly line to the test, using the actual parts and components, and builds 100 complete Atari VCS units in a reduced-speed line over the course of several days. (The exact same kind of assembly-line testing happens in concert at the PowerA manufacturing facilities.) Once the units are assembled they go through extensive quality assurance tests of every aspect of the mechanical designs.

"Atari" keep mentioning what PowerA do to make their BS they've presented us with over the past two updates look more legitimate than it really is. Say what you want about PowerA, but they're still more professional than "Atari".

As others have said, we still have no proof that there are 100 units built. Not to mention that making 100 units for pre-production of an unfinished and already-niche Linux PC is an odd choice and potentially a large waste of money.

Keep this in mind - we'll come back to this too (I'm trying to go in the order of the article, but it's all over the damn place and they keep jumping back to previous points - I swear I wasn't the one who wrote this crap).

 

So what did the Atari VCS EVT process tell us? A lot… much of which is related to the AMD RG1606 Ryzen™ processor.

As most Atari VCS backers and fans know, the system is powered by an all-new AMD processor. That processor is so new that it is still in its early days of deployment, and only Atari and a few PC manufacturers have access to it. This means the Atari engineers are part of a small group that is pioneering the implementation of AMD’s high-performance, single-chip solution.

Exactly as I was saying before - there are problems with the Ryzen Embedded processors, and their choice to use one has clearly been at least partially what caused all these delays. Their incompetence brought this upon themselves because they looked for the absolute cheapest viable solution instead of the most reliable but still low-cost solution. AMD's mobile chips would have been absolutely fine by comparison - they may not be amazing, but they work. Atari is clearly telling us that this chip is problematic. They know it, we know it, and now we know that they know it.

 

Despite early success with the new AMD Ryzen™ development platform, when the team fired up the first batch of EVT form-factor units, the HDMI port was outputting HD video, but not full 4K video and audio.

They'd have you believe these two are related. Likely, the dev board wasn't an Embedded chip. If it was, well, AMD's hardware is obviously far more competent than anything Atari SA can make. If it wasn't, they're comparing apples and oranges. Either way, they're trying to say "it was working fine but we hit a snag!" when they should really be saying "AMD had no issues, but we caused some because we're incompetent".

 

Fortunately, AMD was able to confirm that this was a not-yet-documented-but-known issue, and recommended a fix. Now excellent 4K quality video and audio is now pumping through the HDMI output. The team still had to rework every one of the EVT VCS units, including several that were already in the hands of our software development partners, but the issue was efficiently addressed.

As I've been saying, this series of processors isn't well-documented. This proves it. If it was a somewhat major issue like this but AMD couldn't even be bothered to document it let alone fix it themselves, I think that speaks volumes as to the quality of these chips. Again, just because it can do 4K, that doesn't mean it should do 4K. Embedded processors aren't designed for game consoles, dammit.

Here's the first of two things we're coming back to - the amount of units produced, and when. They claim that "several" "were already in the hands of our software development partners". But they claimed they only made 100 EVT units in November. And that, as far as we know, this "fix" happened in November. And this "fix" seems to be hardware-related (remember the guy manually soldering stuff? Yeah, I bet you anything that's why they had to "rework" every single unit).

So putting aside the obvious question of WHO these partners are, WHEN did they get the VCS units, HOW long have they had them, and if they haven't even got basic quality control sorted out across the board (no pun intended), how the hell do they expect devs to use these things as dev kits? And more importantly, why would you even make pre-production units to send out as dev kits? That doesn't even make sense, and that's completely putting aside the fact that this is just a basic PC which any developer can already develop for using their existing hardware.

 

It all seems quite fishy to me. There's a lot that doesn't add up here, and they've only really given us more questions rather than (satisfying) answers - unless, of course, your surname is Werner, but then again, those guys are clearly brain-dead cultists at this point.

 

Before I move on, I found this to be... "cute":

The Atari VCS was highlighted recently as one of a new generation of PC products using AMD’s Ryzen Embedded R1000 SoC processor as the linchpin in its design.

It was basically a footnote in an almost entirely unrelated Tom's Hardware article. Even if it wasn't, Tom's Hardware is crap these days. Either way, saying it was "highlighted" is being EXTREMELY generous.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/amd-mini-pc-intel-nuc-ecosystem-Ryzen-embedded-R1000-V1000

 

EVT testing also revealed some issues related to WiFi and Bluetooth connectivity, and working with PowerA we found some opportunities to improve the the all-new Classic Joystick’s paddle functionality. Working with an experienced peripheral manufacturer like PowerA has been great. The mix of classic and modern features required in the reimagined joystick challenged the engineers at PowerA to innovate and deliver some new, creative solutions.

Again, issues with the wireless card. We can see in one of the photos that it is indeed a plug-and-play solution as I mentioned previously:

This should just work. This could be multiple issues - drivers (i.e. shitty/non-existent software), Ryzen Embedded (I don't know the extent of how craptastic they are, so it's possible), or just a poor PCB design. None of those options are a good look. It shouldn't have got to the factory with these issues.

 

As for the controllers, still no proof that they work. Maybe they do. Maybe Atari actually paid someone for once. But so what if they DO work? There are a handful of them, there's zero evidence that they have the paddle functionality, and we've yet to see them working (without issue).

Plus, I realise they're saying "NOTHING'S FINAL!" (is it ever?) but that woodgrain front isn't even close to the original look (and it appears to be some kind of vinyl stick-on instead of actual wood, so it's not like you couldn't just do that yourself and save $50).

 

The EVT process includes time for the team to make final adjustments to the main PCB board, and they found several small opportunities to improve and streamline the electrical routing and eliminate some circuits, resistors and other small parts. Again, this is a detailed testing process that takes a lot of time and attention to work through effectively.

This is the other point I said I'd come back to (and will continue into the next quote as well). Now, it's not unheard of to make some little electrical changes here and there before final production, but the way they talk, this sounds like the factory is doing a LOT of legwork to change quite a hefty amount of the (poorly-designed) VCS PCB so that it actually, you know, works. Probably because Rob crapping out a single untested prototype wasn't enough for even him to know if it was a good design yet (assuming he knows what "good design" even is).

Keep in mind that they still have the piss-poor laptop-style cooling solution where the fan isn't even on top of the damn CPU. Somehow, just maybe, I think Atari is going to find a way to have a shittier thermal design than Apple. And if you don't know, one of the things Apple is clearly worst at (at least when it comes to their MacBooks) is thermals. They're atrocious to unacceptable levels.

 

During the EVT phase the factory team also puts the manufacturing process itself through its paces and looks for creative ways to make the assembly line more efficient. Often this requires designing and building custom assembly fixtures that will make a number of specific processes smooth and consistent. It’s also important that the many delicate parts are always protected during assembly and that they fit together precisely in order to guarantee a high yield. Our factory partner was able to provide us with a number of their “work-in-progress” fixture design drawings to share here, which address several critical parts of the box build.

This in and of itself doesn't seem all that bad... until you read the last sentence. Which sounds bad enough, until you see their images (you can look at the article for the rest):

These are CAD drawings at best. At worst, they can't produce anything with this drawings. I'm not a CAD expert but they look like they should theoretically be workable as 3D-printable models. Even if that's the case... they're conceptualising their friggin' fixture designs for mass production. And to correct something I said earlier, there is only ONE physical prototype they have so far, which appears to be a block of wood that they a hole into (easy enough to do to the right shape in a factory like that).

 

As you can see, everything is going together beautifully and we are outputting actual working Atari VCS pre-production units. So what does this mean for fans and backers of the Atari VCS? It means that we are officially “in the endgame.” We will soon begun the next critical phase of production — design validation testing (DVT). This is the final part of the manufacturing prep process, where the factory confirms that all of the parameters for a successful finished product are met, especially with regard to fit and finish and user experience. DVT is the last phase before the Atari VCS enters true mass production and units start heading out the door wearing their final finishes and colors.

Now they're confirming that it WILL be months, not weeks. I guess it's still technically weeks. But also months. What a shock. They've still got at least one phase to go before mass production.

Heck, what's the factory's definition of "parameters for a successful finished product"? That could mean anything. Maybe it means the light turns on. Exciting.

And that's ignoring all the other things such as software, certification, and potential issues which could still arise (and given the plethora they've had so far, I'd say those are just a given).

Even if they nailed ALL of those things (yeah right), they're still many, MANY months off from mass production. I truly do not believe they will have these in stores by the end of March (if ever). Frankly, I think it's impossible.

 

And frankly, I know we've semi-joked about it, but at this point, I'm outright convinced that the units they've produced are what will be going to backers. Unfinished, as we can see and they have confirmed. Why make 100 units for pre-production otherwise? And out of all the backers, I doubt they got too many more for the console itself. Remember, a lot of them pledged $1 or for a controller or some such.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: this is going to be Vega+ all over again. Just watch.

 

(Do I really need to quote and respond to their last paragraph? You all know it's complete hogwash).

[Flojomojo]

I don't think anyone posted the latest Pat & Ian reaction video. This goes with the Thanksgiving Q&Arzt update, not the most recent pre-pre-pre-production post.
 

It contains the usual stuff, lots of the same reactions that we had, but still pretty funny IMHO. "The killer app is YOU!"
 

 

[TankedThomas]

8 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

I don't think anyone posted the latest Pat & Ian reaction video. This goes with the Thanksgiving Q&Arzt update, not the most recent pre-pre-pre-production post.
 

It contains the usual stuff, lots of the same reactions that we had, but still pretty funny IMHO. "The killer app is YOU!"
 

 

I think they did but I forgot to watch it anyway, so thanks.

Funny thing is one of the comments asks if they're reused routers, but you can actually run full Linux on most modern routers, so you may as well just do that instead of buying this thing. ?

 

I'm still really stumped on the 100 units thing. Did they send out untested units to developers, only to recall them after testing? Shouldn't they have tested them as soon as they developed them? Did they actually make 100 or are they lying? Plenty of random Chinese manufacturers take photos of bulk inventory fresh of the production line - why not Atari? What would they even do with 100 pre-production units? They'd be lucky to have two developers, let alone ~100.

This is irritating me. Give me real answers, dammit, Atari!

Edited December 11, 2019 by TankedThomas

[OCAT]

I am not going to make any false statements here but if indeed Atari spent all that cash "to develop" and by that I mean outsource the system, and also spent money on other things like lawsuits, adds and what not, then there is no way they can pay for the productin of all the units, unless Atari is going to invest personal Capital in this venture as a seperate entity. But I suspect not as he would have funded this little pet project himself from the getgo.

So if there are insufficient enough funds to cover production, hire a team to handle packing and shipping, as well as shipping costs, not to mention warranty exchanges, then I conject that this could possibly and without intent, or malice turn into a runaway Ponzi-esque type operation, where the initial backers are the initial investors, and to get money to pay them off (ie ship to them what was actualy promised) Atari will need to get MORE preorders to pay for this. Once good reviews start to come out, and if this is released in stores they can actually use profits to pay for those old orders and thus eliminate the need to get more people to pay the previous ones.
Now this is a BIG IF! this will only work if this is a runaway success! I calculate a %12 chance of success |-_-|

So if you want one of these things I suggest not buying it through indiegogo, unless your credit card protects you, buy it where you can do a chargeback or better, in store where you take it home, I suggest opening up the box at the store to make sure a brick is not inside.
You do not want to be the one that is paying for someone elses TacoBox.


(Allegedly)

Edited December 11, 2019 by OCAT

[Flojomojo]

@TankedThomas Arzt said they made 100 units to test the build process, not what they'd do with them. I doubt they'll go anywhere, and would assume they're just manufacturing waste. I didn't see anything about sending them to developers (should I go back and look? I'm allergic to bullshit). They shouldn't send broken $hit to paying backers. Maybe they'll show up on eBay someday as "rare" collectibles?

@OCAT They said different things to different audiences. They told their board that the hardware would be crowdfunded to reduce the risk to the organization. Maybe this means they didn't know how many they should make. I always took it to mean they wanted to use other people's money.
 

Later on, Arzt said they used crowdfunding to build a crowd, not to fund the machine, to involve people in the process, and it was happening with or without backer money. More recently, Arzt started saying that they didn't know how many they should make, but would never say anything about financial realities. Seems likely they're going to go out of pocket for this project, but it's unclear how much they're going to lose.
 

Since they're publicly traded, they have to make financial disclosures. I think their annual report is in April, which might explain the plan to get things out the door in March. Even though Atari Gamebox LLC is a spin-off, we should be able to see some hints about money spent in that next report. We should expect a loss in that column (takes money to make money) but it's a question of how much. 

 

Maybe we'll find out more about Rob Wyatt at that time, but if it's unflattering, they'll try to keep it to themselves. Wild-ass guess: maybe it's true that they didn't pay him, but maybe also true he was missing deadlines, and maybe by complaining about them in public, maybe he violated his non-disclosure agreement. Maybe they settled with the understanding that he STFU and they don't sue him for breach, thus saving embarrassment for everyone. That's purely speculative. Maybe I should make some "fire and fury" style dialogue and paste it into photos of Arzt, Rob, and Fred, visual novel style. 
 

[TankedThomas]

14 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

@TankedThomas Arzt said they made 100 units to test the build process, not what they'd do with them. I doubt they'll go anywhere, and would assume they're just manufacturing waste. I didn't see anything about sending them to developers (should I go back and look? I'm allergic to bullshit). They shouldn't send broken $hit to paying backers. Maybe they'll show up on eBay someday as "rare" collectibles?

Right, but that's a LOT of wasted money, and they don't have a lot in the bank (plus only $3m from Indiegogo which they've allegedly blown over a year ago), so that would be an epic amount of waste for something that we're approximating will get maybe 2000 units produced for backers (and even if every backer ordered one - which they didn't - that's still only ~15k units). Do they really need 100 units to "test the build process"? Even if they somehow get to a proper retail release, I highly doubt they'll even make 100k units - do they really need to make 100 units to test them?

 

As for developers, they didn't outright say they sent them units from the 100, but their wording suggests this is what was done (emphasis mine):

Quote

For EVT, the factory puts their proposed assembly line to the test, using the actual parts and components, and builds 100 complete Atari VCS units in a reduced-speed line over the course of several days.

Once the units are assembled they go through extensive quality assurance tests of every aspect of the mechanical designs.

Quote

Despite early success with the new AMD Ryzen™ development platform, when the team fired up the first batch of EVT form-factor units, the HDMI port was outputting HD video, but not full 4K video and audio.

Fortunately, AMD was able to confirm that this was a not-yet-documented-but-known issue, and recommended a fix. Now excellent 4K quality video and audio is now pumping through the HDMI output. The team still had to rework every one of the EVT VCS units, including several that were already in the hands of our software development partners, but the issue was efficiently addressed.

The only explanation I can think of is that they had already made a second batch and shipped some of the first to their supposed development partners before testing either batch. But then if each batch is 100 units, wouldn't that me a minimum of 200 units made? Which makes even less sense. And for that matter, if they did indeed make more than one batch of EVT units... why?

 

And yes, I agree they shouldn't send such a thing to backers. But again: Vega+. I'm expecting the same thing - some backers get units which suck, others get nothing, everyone loses.

I want to be wrong, but it's not looking hopeful so far. I hope nobody (except the Werner Bros.) gets a crappy product, but if they didn't want that, they shouldn't have backed this dumpster fire.

Edited December 11, 2019 by TankedThomas
Formatting

[Lodmot]

Basically in a nutshell, this whole situation sounds like it's going to turn out how I expected:

Backers will get their units, and the VCS will probably not make it to GameStop/Walmart/Retail shelves.

[Flojomojo]

Yup. Let's not forget all the assumptions we are making:

- that they intend to pay everyone (Fred has gained a rep for not being a good partner)

- that they will receive extra money from the board (from shareholders?) to finish the project

- that they actually intend to ship (still holding out for a corporate buyer?)

- that anything Arzt says is literally true (maybe they make 10, not 100)

[keithbk]

Every system comes with a launch game.

 

That is typically as big a deal as the system itself.

 

The launch game pushes the limits or unique features of the system.

 

No launch game, no system.

[Tommy Tallarico]

4 hours ago, Flojomojo said:

A $200+ box that only plays games, friendly or not, seems like something out of the long-defunct Sears Wish Book to me. 

 

There's a whole world of web-based casual games like http://io.games/ and a crazy subculture of (soon to be deprecated)  Flash stuff on Newgrounds. It's all accessible from a Chromebook or library computer, and in my experience this is what mainstream kids are playing, on hardware they already have for school. The race to the bottom on mobile obliterated the market for non-freemium casual games and it's a miracle that the same thing is not happening on the Switch eShop. Kids love free stuff and they'll sit through shitty ads to get it. 

 

By being a physical box with a ~$200 barrier to entry, Amico is hobbled out of the gate, but at least TT et al have a dream and vision that justifies its existence. They've got a long difficult road ahead (their early download numbers for their free demo app are not a good sign) but showing some heart must count for something? Good will, if not good sales?

 

I respect your opinion... and understand why you would feel that way... but the data and research (and major big box brick and mortar retailers who know their customers) disagree with your thoughts.

 

Families do in fact want a simple and easy to use physical hardware device that everyone can play.  We (and big investors) know the data.  Its been 13 years since the Wii and everyone has been waiting for the follow up.

 

The "mobile" arguement also doesn't work in this instance as CASUAL and stuff for kids is ALL solitary now.  And everyone knows how predatory mobile is in regards to $$.  There is no simple and affordable system to play together as a family.  And its not Switch.  Again... the data shows the opposite and Nintendo in fact has the most adult content, the most difficult parental controls and the most confusing home console marketplace (and with the least overall quality for home consoles). Wanna play 4 player?  Most Switch games would require at least 2 (sometimes 4) consoles or multiple controllers and $40+ purchases.

 

Finally... in regards to our App download numbers.  We have yet to spend a single dime of our $11M marketing campaign.  Way too early.  It doesnt start until the end of next summer.  So until then, we're just focusing on the hardcore retro gamers who are paying attention.  Spending zero money. The real "sign" of things to come should be in all the comments and Like to Dislike ratios on any of our videos.  Read the comments.  See what people are saying. That is only going to be magnified a million times when the time is right.  We haven't even begun our marketing or ad spends at all.  

 

Out of respect I don't want to hijack this thread so please feel free to carry on the discussion in my Intellivision thread. I don't mind giving folks more info and having respectful discussions with folks.

 

Again, I understand why you may think the way you do... but when you dive a little deeper you will find that our future looks more positive than you may initially thought.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Flojomojo]

Tommy, if you can't absorb a little friendly doubt, in threads that aren't about you, without feeling the need to write a three thousand word rebuttal, you're not going to have a good time when your product launches. 
 

Speaking of launches, AntStream sent me an email, "Play before you Pay," announcing that they're now offering a free 7-day trial. https://www.antstream.com/download-retro-games

[Lodmot]

4 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

 

I respect your opinion... and understand why you would feel that way... but the data and research (and major big box brick and mortar retailers who know their customers) disagree with your thoughts.

 

Families do in fact want a simple and easy to use physical hardware device that everyone can play.  We (and big investors) know the data.  Its been 13 years since the Wii and everyone has been waiting for the follow up.

 

The "mobile" arguement also doesn't work in this instance as CASUAL and stuff for kids is ALL solitary now.  And everyone knows how predatory mobile is in regards to $$.  There is no simple and affordable system to play together as a family.  And its not Switch.  Again... the data shows the opposite and Nintendo in fact has the most adult content, the most difficult parental controls and the most confusing home console marketplace (and with the least overall quality for home consoles). Wanna play 4 player?  Most Switch games would require at least 2 (sometimes 4) consoles or multiple controllers and $40+ purchases.

 

Finally... in regards to our App download numbers.  We have yet to spend a single dime of our $11M marketing campaign.  Way too early.  It doesnt start until the end of next summer.  So until then, we're just focusing on the hardcore retro gamers who are paying attention.  Spending zero money. The real "sign" of things to come should be in all the comments and Like to Dislike ratios on any of our videos.  Read the comments.  See what people are saying. That is only going to be magnified a million times when the time is right.  We haven't even begun our marketing or ad spends at all.  

 

Out of respect I don't want to hijack this thread so please feel free to carry on the discussion in my Intellivision thread. I don't mind giving folks more info and having respectful discussions with folks.

 

Again, I understand why you may think the way you do... but when you dive a little deeper you will find that our future looks more positive than you may initially thought.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The Amico sounds exactly like the kind of system I would love to get my hands on (and develop for, as well). 

 

I don't really know what type of a gamer I am. I'm not exactly a "casual" gamer, because I know how to play modern, photo-realistic video games; they just don't appeal to me the way games from the 90's always did. 

I was getting sick of seeing the same kind of stuff come out on the PS4/Xbox One. That's actually what prompted me to become interested in the VCS, and it was just enough of a push to make me back the VCS during the IGG campaign. I was under the impression that the team behind the VCS was going to do exactly what you guys are doing now with the Amico.

[bmadgames]

30 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

 

I respect your opinion... and understand why you would feel that way... but the data and research (and major big box brick and mortar retailers who know their customers) disagree with your thoughts.

 

Families do in fact want a simple and easy to use physical hardware device that everyone can play.  We (and big investors) know the data.  Its been 13 years since the Wii and everyone has been waiting for the follow up.

 

The "mobile" arguement also doesn't work in this instance as CASUAL and stuff for kids is ALL solitary now.  And everyone knows how predatory mobile is in regards to $$.  There is no simple and affordable system to play together as a family.  And its not Switch.  Again... the data shows the opposite and Nintendo in fact has the most adult content, the most difficult parental controls and the most confusing home console marketplace (and with the least overall quality for home consoles). Wanna play 4 player?  Most Switch games would require at least 2 (sometimes 4) consoles or multiple controllers and $40+ purchases.

 

Finally... in regards to our App download numbers.  We have yet to spend a single dime of our $11M marketing campaign.  Way too early.  It doesnt start until the end of next summer.  So until then, we're just focusing on the hardcore retro gamers who are paying attention.  Spending zero money. The real "sign" of things to come should be in all the comments and Like to Dislike ratios on any of our videos.  Read the comments.  See what people are saying. That is only going to be magnified a million times when the time is right.  We haven't even begun our marketing or ad spends at all.  

 

Out of respect I don't want to hijack this thread so please feel free to carry on the discussion in my Intellivision thread. I don't mind giving folks more info and having respectful discussions with folks.

 

Again, I understand why you may think the way you do... but when you dive a little deeper you will find that our future looks more positive than you may initially thought.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I think the Amico has a really good chance of success. As anyone with younger kids will tell you, today's consoles are way too complex for younger children (and expensive on top of that) then you add in all the other casuals who don't want to deal with an expensive complex console, I think the Amico can play in a huge market.

 

In my view, (based in my experience in the tech/retail industries), all of these streaming services targeted to casual games are far away from any mainstream success.

 

Think of value proposition of the Amico: Less than $200, can buy it at retailers (I assume), easy to set up, can be played by kids and adults, comes with 2 controllers and games. If the console is even half as great as promised, there could be a huge market here.

[DurradonXylles]

3 hours ago, Lodmot said:

Basically in a nutshell, this whole situation sounds like it's going to turn out how I expected:

Backers will get their units, and the VCS will probably not make it to GameStop/Walmart/Retail shelves.

I think you and the other backers will likely get barbones units barely running some Debian-based Linux distro only just dressed up to be Atari themed with Atari Vault and Tempest 4000 installed, possibly even just Steam keys for them since again Tempest 4k doesn't even have official Mac OSX and Linux versions. This is me being realistically optimistic. But I still highly doubt these things are going to end up in retailers regardless. Atari seems to like following Oracle's example of burning through most of its profits on legal fees, and they don't have enough clout to risk making a lot of retail units that likely won't sell unless they get seriously marked down.

 

5 hours ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

You are so correct.  The reality is that our "chip" specs are nowhere near things like the PS5, Scarlett or even the AtariVCS.  And we don't care. 

The industry (and hardcores) have become so caught up in processing power, graphic capability, etc. that the MOST important part of what makes a game fun is the FUN FACTOR/DESIGN/PLAYABILITY and the STYLE.  Graphics don't need to be photo realistic in order to have a nice style.  Our Breakout footage is a perfect example.  Completely 2D but modern yet retro looking at the same time.  That exact game and style would run the same on the PS5 as it does on Amico.  If the Wii proved anything, it showed that the "mainstream" doesn't care about graphics as much as hardcores.  And having simple "stylized graphics" can be just as pleasing as photo realistic stuff.  And for casual and non-gamers (i.e. the mass majority of people who engage and spend money on video games every day), they would rather play a simplistic stylized easy on the eyes soccer game then the complexity of the latest photo realistic FIFA.  So while many folks like ourselves marvel at the incredible visuals and technology used to create these current next gen masterpieces... the "average" and "majority" finds it off-putting, scary, intimidating and too complex.  Maybe fun for them to watch others... but not partake themselves. 

So yes... getting back to the roots of simple and affordable games and gameplay with friends and family (no matter what your skill level of gaming is) has always been our #1 focus. 

This is what personally perplexes me about the VCS.  I don't want to "pile on", but it seems like they don't understand (or at least communicate to their audience) that it's not the technology or hardware that make a new game system appealing (just ask Trip Hawkins and 3DO!).  It's the GAMES, the playability and the unique user experience.  Unfortunately over the past year or so they have not shown either of those things.  I've been in the industry over 30 years and I've never seen a game console not show games months before the release of the console.  By this summer (E3 in June) you'll see a TON of PS5 footage, Scarlett footage, more Amico of course, etc.  And they will all still be about 6 months from launch.  This is very typical. 

My simple advice to Atari would be this...

If AtariVCS wants to win over folks (including most of the folks in here!) all they need to do is show a bunch of unique games playing on their system.  It would go a VERY LONG way and win over a bunch of naysayers if the footage was epic and exciting.  It's pretty obvious.  But because they are not doing that... you need to ask yourself a question.  Why?  I think a lot of folks assume to know the answer.  Because it probably doesn't exist.  The $3M was put into creating the machine (no idea how they are going to pay to manufacture the 10K units for the backers... but that is another story I suppose).  They were probably hoping that game studios would be excited and start porting games and creating games for their new system.  That would have been a huge mistake and very naive.  Not showing games a month or so before launch (yet taking pre-orders) would tend to signal that the folks in charge may not know the best way to launch a console. 

I honestly hope they succeed to some extent.  I really do.  If for nothing else... for the backers to feel somewhat satisfied for taking a chance.  I'd love to see a friendly "tongue in cheek" old school rivalry between our companies come back.  But not having a clear vision as to what the machine is (I still don't get it) and the exclusive games that will run on it (still not announced or shown) would give anyone slight pause as to the success of the product on launch.  Look at Google... they have all the money and marketing in the world... and they didn't get it right either.  Intellivision is not by any means perfect.  We will stumble along the way, make mistakes, come across major barriers... but behind the scenes are hundreds of passionate people dedicated to finding solutions for any encountered problem (no matter what) and bashing through (or under or around or over) any barrier put in our way.  We are all super passionate about what we do.  And a bunch of folks are going to HATE the machine and the direction we've taken.  And that's okay.  We have a mission and a vision and we will not stray until our goal is reached.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

 

I respect your opinion... and understand why you would feel that way... but the data and research (and major big box brick and mortar retailers who know their customers) disagree with your thoughts.

 

Families do in fact want a simple and easy to use physical hardware device that everyone can play.  We (and big investors) know the data.  Its been 13 years since the Wii and everyone has been waiting for the follow up.

 

The "mobile" arguement also doesn't work in this instance as CASUAL and stuff for kids is ALL solitary now.  And everyone knows how predatory mobile is in regards to $$.  There is no simple and affordable system to play together as a family.  And its not Switch.  Again... the data shows the opposite and Nintendo in fact has the most adult content, the most difficult parental controls and the most confusing home console marketplace (and with the least overall quality for home consoles). Wanna play 4 player?  Most Switch games would require at least 2 (sometimes 4) consoles or multiple controllers and $40+ purchases.

 

Finally... in regards to our App download numbers.  We have yet to spend a single dime of our $11M marketing campaign.  Way too early.  It doesnt start until the end of next summer.  So until then, we're just focusing on the hardcore retro gamers who are paying attention.  Spending zero money. The real "sign" of things to come should be in all the comments and Like to Dislike ratios on any of our videos.  Read the comments.  See what people are saying. That is only going to be magnified a million times when the time is right.  We haven't even begun our marketing or ad spends at all.  

 

Out of respect I don't want to hijack this thread so please feel free to carry on the discussion in my Intellivision thread. I don't mind giving folks more info and having respectful discussions with folks.

 

Again, I understand why you may think the way you do... but when you dive a little deeper you will find that our future looks more positive than you may initially thought.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love your explanation and approach. I must admit, Mr. Tallarico, even if unintentionally, I underestimated you in my previous posts. You have done a ton of research on the market, a clear understanding of how you want to approach said market, and clearly very passionate of achieving your goal; I both commend and respect you for it. I do agree with @Flojomojo, though, you need to accept a little bit of friendly doubt and criticism if you hope to see the Amico flourish. I am still a little skeptical of the release date, but if you reflect what you said here, especially in the first of the two comments I quoted, in the advertising of the Amico I think you'll make a decent splash with it.

 

Since you brought up your thoughts on how Atari is handling the hardware, here's how I would've approached the Ataribox if I was in Atari Gameboxx LLC's position, or at least done differently:

 

First, I would not call it the VCS. It's clear that naming the hardware this is a cynical marketing tactic to try to embellish nostalgia among older Atari fans, as well as try to get the new hardware to show up in searches for the original; it's tacky and transparent. I would've gone with a name that signifies a return to form without intentionally causing brand confusion. I would've gone with either naming it "2800", "9800" or something numerical in nature, "MCS" (Modern Computing System) or some other acronym that invokes memories of the original VCS, or another wildcat name like the consoles from the Tramiel era like "Mountain Lion" or "Serval".

 

Second, do what Nintendo and Intellivision does and focus on games and not computer power. In fact, I would almost say that if I wanted decent power that could attract AAA's to my system, I'd just rip off the Switch and use a Nvidia Tegra chip. No upgradable hardware, probably scrap the sandbox mode, just decent, tried and true hardware and put more focus on software. It would also free up development for UX, and potentially physical media for games, as well. If I were to open up the OS for homebrew creation, it would be a la the Shield TV and not through some deceptively complex sideloader mode.

 

Focus on making usable controllers that are both unique and, again, invoke thoughts of Atari's Legacy. I'd honestly go with 5200 or 7800 controllers as the base since they reflect both retro aesthetics and the desire to innovate. I'd also have modern style controllers, since they are necessary if AAA games end up on the hardware, but I would model them off of the WiiU Pro controller or Steam Controller. I'd also add support for other controllers via Bluetooth or USB, maybe even adding in XInput driver support if I can legally do so.

 

The case is about the only thing I wouldn't change, since it both apes retro Atari while also looking slick and modern. Yes, the very thing we're mocking the console about is the one thing I wouldn't change. All hail the glory of the taco.

 

Finally, no "Unconsole" crap, no streaming service partnerships, and no crowdfunding. I would want the console to live or die by its own merits, let the console speak for itself so to speak, and wouldn't want the research and development costs of it to come off of the backs of potential consumers. It sounds obvious, but good faith and trust is earned and not received for just being a recognizable name. Abusing either can cost a lot more than a few lost sales in the short term, and I don't like the idea of consumers buying in before I have anything to show.

 

What's funny is that I have to imagine that the cost of all the smoke and mirrors, just to potentially find someone to buy out Atari, is far more than honest to goodness R&D even if they end up just ripping off an already existing console design.

[TACODON]

I do like the fact that Tommy is here and is willing to discuss his project with people. Regardless to how relevant it is to this thread it again though underscores how different his approach is with his company and their product. Instead of hiding behind vague blog posts and underpaid interns, he is here and willing to talk to folks. Regardless of how you feel about the Amico, I think we can all agree that Atari and Fred Cheese-head need to learn some lessons from him and his company.

[Lodmot]

31 minutes ago, DurradonXylles said:

I think you and the other backers will likely get barbones units barely running some Debian-based Linux distro only just dressed up to be Atari themed with Atari Vault and Tempest 4000 installed, possibly even just Steam keys for them since again Tempest 4k doesn't even have official Mac OSX and Linux versions. This is me being realistically optimistic. But I still highly doubt these things are going to end up in retailers regardless. Atari seems to like following Oracle's example of burning through most of its profits on legal fees, and they don't have enough clout to risk making a lot of retail units that likely won't sell unless they get seriously marked down.

Yeah.. Frankly at this point, I'll be perfectly happy if I get exactly what you described. I'll set up my own gamepad-friendly UI on it and put a bunch of Atari 2600/5200/7800/MAME/Jaguar roms on it. I'll also use it as a secondary device for streaming movies on like my bedroom TV or somewhere else in the house (I don't watch regular cable :P).  So I've already got plans for my unit.

 

If Atari actually does in fact have a proprietary UI for the VCS though, on which you can add people as friends and stuff like their concept animations suggest, then I propose everyone that got suckered into backing the unit (including myself) adds each other as VCS friends, just as a gag.. LOL

Edited December 11, 2019 by Lodmot

[jaybird3rd]

If Tommy was unwilling to "accept a little bit of friendly doubt and criticism," I doubt he would be here interacting with the community to this extent.  I don't think his previous post indicated an "unwillingness" to accept criticism; he acknowledged the criticisms and offered counter-arguments.  And I do consider the Amico-related posts to be germane to this thread, because they dramatize the contrast between Intellivision Entertainment's approach and "Atari"'s approach to their respective projects; the contrast is informative and enlightening for those who are following either project.

[John Stamos Mullet]

about once a year I get the gumption up to read this thread again and see if anything genuinely interesting is going on and pretty much every time I have the same reaction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Flojomojo]

 

14 minutes ago, TACODON said:

I think we can all agree that Atari and Fred Cheese-head need to learn some lessons from him and his company.

 

Fred's got over a half million other l€ssons he's learning by doing things his way. ?

 

5 minutes ago, jaybird3rd said:

If Tommy was unwilling to "accept a little bit of friendly doubt and criticism," I doubt he would be here interacting with the community to this extent.  I don't think his previous post indicated an "unwillingness" to accept criticism; he acknowledged the criticisms and offered counter-arguments.  And I do consider the Amico-related posts to be germane to this thread, because they dramatize the contrast between Intellivision Entertainment's approach and "Atari"'s approach to their respective projects; the contrast is informative and enlightening for those who are following either project.

Full context of my comment is below. I agree that he has some interesting insight to share. I hope that you agree that he has a product to sell. He doesn't have to jump on every single mention of his unreleased thing to deliver yet another sales pitch, and if it were to scale up the way he says it will, such behavior would be impossible to sustain. I'm not suggesting that he be shut down, and I hope that you're not implying that I should hold back valid criticisms. We're all being perfectly civil here. 

1 hour ago, Flojomojo said:

Tommy, if you can't absorb a little friendly doubt, in threads that aren't about you, without feeling the need to write a three thousand word rebuttal, you're not going to have a good time when your product launches. 

[keithbk]

Here's the thing;

1 hour ago, Tommy Tallarico said:

Again, I understand why you may think the way you do... but when you dive a little deeper you will find that our future looks more positive than you may initially thought.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I cannot kill dragons out of the box... there's a problem.

 

Promise we can kill dragons, restore the crown, kill some rats, bats, and demons along the way, and all is well.

 

[DurradonXylles]

24 minutes ago, jaybird3rd said:

If Tommy was unwilling to "accept a little bit of friendly doubt and criticism," I doubt he would be here interacting with the community to this extent.  I don't think his previous post indicated an "unwillingness" to accept criticism; he acknowledged the criticisms and offered counter-arguments.  And I do consider the Amico-related posts to be germane to this thread, because they dramatize the contrast between Intellivision Entertainment's approach and "Atari"'s approach to their respective projects; the contrast is informative and enlightening for those who are following either project.

I take responsibility for that quote. I was quickly trying to get all of my thoughts into a single post, and improperly abridged Flojo's comment. My apologies for misrepresenting his quote.

[Flojomojo]

8 minutes ago, keithbk said:

Promise we can kill dragons, restore the crown, kill some rats, bats, and demons along the way, and all is well.

 

[PlaysWithWolves]

11 minutes ago, jaybird3rd said:

If Tommy was unwilling to "accept a little bit of friendly doubt and criticism," I doubt he would be here interacting with the community to this extent. 

 

That's misrepresenting (or misunderstanding) what Flojo said.  For clarity's sake, I removed the part where the ellipses are:

 

1 hour ago, Flojomojo said:

Tommy, if you can't absorb a little friendly doubt ... without feeling the need to write a three thousand word rebuttal, you're not going to have a good time when your product launches. 

 

@Flojomojo is right.  That was the mildest of doubt voiced and @Tommy Tallaricohit back with practically a wall of text.

 

Tommy's doing a lot right, and clearly is passionate and has information we don't. But maybe not take the volume to 11 any time concerns are raised would be a good thing?

[Flojomojo]

It was meant as (admittedly faint) praise, but the constant drum-beating for the thing has been frankly exhausting. I don't care about research data, I don't know how the thing will sell, I certainly don't care what buyers at big box stores think. Not my circus, not my monkey. I just know what the barriers to entry would be for me, a consumer, who is generally interested in this kind of thing.