Todd's 5.51 Dragster score

[Foxsolo2000]

 

There are ways of 'frying' a 2600 with repeated on/off attempts - not sure if you were aware of this. You can get some pretty cool game variations on some ROMs. This is effectively cheating if one were to get an advantage this way, but on real hardware you can impact ROM execution in some limited ways.

 

I agree. Long before I heard the term being coined I accidently discovered frying in 1981 when I switched on Space Invaders too quickly and discovered the double bullet effect. Frying could explain some possibilities but I dont feel that it would convientley explain everything but who knows? Has anyone ever documented all possible effects of frying for every game?

[Tempest]

 

I agree. Long before I heard the term being coined I accidently discovered frying in 1981 when I switched on Space Invaders too quickly and discovered the double bullet effect. Frying could explain some possibilities but I dont feel that it would convientley explain everything but who knows? Has anyone ever documented all possible effects of frying for every game?

 

Also if frying was used that would invalidate the high score.

 

Over on Digital Press they used to have various frying effects listed in the Easter Eggs thread. It hasn't been updated in a long time though and Dragster isn't one of the games listed.

[Foxsolo2000]

 

Also if frying was used that would invalidate the high score.

 

Over on Digital Press they used to have various frying effects listed in the Easter Eggs thread. It hasn't been updated in a long time though and Dragster isn't one of the games listed.

Thank you for that. Got to admit though Dragster was one of the few games I never attempted to fry.

[Omnigamer]

That description for "frying" suggests a form of glitching (the electronics kind) or fault injection. This can lead to any amount of dirty states if the program counter or other critical registers aren't fully reset between power cycles.

 

If you allow this kind of activity in some competition or optimization problem, though, then your base medium is inconsistent. The program is no longer functioning in the way it was designed - you've imposed external influences to directly affect its execution and flow. It might be interesting in and of itself to find optimality with those conditions, but it also makes the problem less interesting. For example, I imagine there may be a way of affecting Dragster to trigger the win condition with a time of less than 1.00 with some precisely applied faults or glitches. It's something that you can do, but it's no longer relying on human skill, which is hopefully what the competition aims to measure.

[D.Yancey]

Dragster is reset while playing by moving the joystick to the right. I really doubt any type of frying was ever attempted especially while playing at the electronics shows and in front of the Activision people.

[Goochman]

I didnt want to insinuate that frying was at play here - I did mention it would be a form of cheating if a bonus like the double shot in SI was found.

 

Anyhow,

I only brought that up to show that even a simple powerup can play games with a 2600 on real hardware. It wasnt engineered by NASA

[accousticguitar]

An interesting question would be what console was Todd using when he made the high score. Was it a heavy sixer?

[Thomas Jentzsch]

My analysis of the code solely concentrated on the game parameters and code which are relevant for the simulation. I also checked the code if these parameters are changed anywhere else. So the code is definitely not fully understand by me (probably Omnigamer has much more insight than I have yet), and I could have missed something. But since the simulation is 100% identical with the result when feeding the optimal input into the game, the missed code must be something really odd. And I am sure it was not intended by David Crane. Nevertheless using unwanted effects seems valid to me. Except when you can e.g. cheat a game to completely random results.

 

From my analysis there are a few, slightly interesting parts of the code. Related to the problem we have here is only the game variant 2. There are quite some effects in the code, but so far I have not seen how they could influence the time positively.

 

Unrelated I found two interesting code bits so far:

1. 5 NOPs with no meaning at the beginning of the ROM. Maybe these are related to the development system or to hack the game for testing. Or they could be remains of some feature which was removed very late during development.

2. A funny check if the target distance is reached. Instead of a simple >= (BCS) or even == (BEQ), the game checks for not < (BCC) AND == (BEQ). Maybe something was planned here too. E.g. an graphics or sound effect when the target distance is reached.

[moycon]

If you believe in Todd's integrity, then we have all the evidence that we need. For those that do not believe in Todd's integrity, will they ever have enough evidence?

Hmmm I think they had it until you brought up the possibility that more than one version of Dragster exists.

Seems like you could reverse the question. If you dumped 1000 random versions of Dragster and they were all the same, would you have enough actual evidence to dismiss the anecdotal?

 

Curious how the score was recorded to begin with. Was this a video of Todd playing the game or a picture? Has the score ever been reproduced?

[Omnigamer]

There is no existing material evidence for the score beyond a text listing in Activision's newsletter and Todd's own historical testimony. He has not made any statements whatsoever about this score since the game code was modeled, despite being aware that it was ongoing. A 5.51 has never been reproduced, and in fact nobody has even verifiably reproduced a 5.57 (which is known to be possible) or a 5.54 (believed to be impossible).

[D.Yancey]

Hmmm I think they had it until you brought up the possibility that more than one version of Dragster exists.

Seems like you could reverse the question. If you dumped 1000 random versions of Dragster and they were all the same, would you have enough actual evidence to dismiss the anecdotal?

 

Curious how the score was recorded to begin with. Was this a video of Todd playing the game or a picture? Has the score ever been reproduced?

 

No, because I do not know if another rom exists or not. That's only one possibility to explain the implausibility of the score. It could also be hardware differences, emulation differences, or even something no one has ever even conceived yet.

 

Todd had a photo of the original 5.51 game done at his home that was sent to Activision. Afterwards, Activision contacted Guinness and they also accepted the score. Todd repeated the score 2 other times at Activision shows in public. But the record was already verified by Activison and Guinness, so no more photos were taken of the later scores that I know of.

Edited August 30, 2017 by D.Yancey

[Tempest]

Todd had a photo of the original 5.51 game done at his home that was sent to Activision. Afterwards, Activision contacted Guinness and they also accepted the score. Todd repeated the score 2 other times at Activision shows in public. But the record was already verified by Activison and Guinness, so no more photos were taken of the later scores that I know of.

If that photo still exists that could answer a lot of questions. I'm going to guess that it's long gone though.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I do not know if another rom exists or not.

IIRC someone posted here or a TG, that Todd achieved the record on three different carts. It seems very unlikely that the only known ROM wasn't at least on one of them.

[moycon]

If that photo still exists that could answer a lot of questions. I'm going to guess that it's long gone though.

I was wondering if the photo exists as well. It would certainly help validate the story.

Although there are hundreds of pictures of Bigfoot, and thousands of eyewitness accounts, and there are still people that refuse to believe in Bigfoot, so I'm not sure 1 picture and a handful of eyewitness (how many people claim to have seen Todd get the score is another question) would put the matter to rest.

That said, If he got the score 3 times, why not go for a 4th time, but this time record it and put it up on YouTube with the title. "SUCK IT NON-BELIEVERS!"

[+SpiceWare]

why not go for a 4th time

Age? Would you expect an olympic record holder from the early 80s to be able to replicate their accomplishment today?

[moycon]

Age? Would you expect an olympic record holder from the early 80s to be able to replicate their accomplishment today?

It's been awhile since I've played Dragster, is it that demanding? I don't know if I personally would compare a 200 m swimming record or say a high jump record with shifting gears in Dragster, but you may be right.

I guess like Bigfoot, it'll be forever a mystery then.

[D.Yancey]

It's been awhile since I've played Dragster, is it that demanding? I don't know if I personally would compare a 200 m swimming record or say a high jump record with shifting gears in Dragster, but you may be right.

Yeah he can still play Dragster. Recently I've seen him get 5.64, 5.61, even 5.57. But can he still get a better time than that today? Maybe.

But it's more like aging reflexes, eyesight, timing, and patience & persistence to persevere until the score is achieved yet again. And for what reason? To appease a bunch of people whom he's never met? I don't think most people understand the amount of practice, time, and work that it takes to get a score of that magnitude. Does this even deserve his attention?

Edited August 30, 2017 by D.Yancey

[+SpiceWare]

No, it's not as demanding as a 200 m swim, but the past few years I've been noticing things don't function quite as well as they used to and Todd's a couple years older than I am.

 

Looks like you're a tad younger than I am, so if you've not already noticed this you'll be seeing it for yourself soon

[Northcoastgamer]

I find it interesting that two other players were recognized for 5.51 times playing Dragster, not just Todd, in the Activision Newsletter (Vol.6 Spring 1983). https://atariage.com/magazines/magazine_page.html?MagazineID=23&CurrentPage=5

There is also a photo of his 5.54 and 5.61 video at my good friend Scott Stilphens site: http://www.ataricompendium.com/game_library/high_scores/high_scores.html

 

As for age, most olympic athletes are reliving memories, I'm still making them and whooping ass on games at nearly 60 .

 

 

[Tempest]

I find it interesting that two other players were recognized for 5.51 times playing Dragster, not just Todd, in the Activision Newsletter (Vol.6 Spring 1983)

 

 

Ok now that IS weird. Either we're missing something or there were a lot typos going on back then.

[Northcoastgamer]

Perhaps, it was a typo by Activision and should have been 5.54. Perhaps, all three achieved 5.51. Perhaps, it's like asking how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? The world may never know.

[Tempest]

Perhaps, it's like asking how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Pop? The world may never know.

I have it on good authority that it takes 5.51 licks...

[JeremiahK]

I thought this got solved last week, hehe, not so. Now the plot thickens.

The only thing I could think is that it was done on the same ROM as everyone has, but somehow the actual hardware reacts ever so slightly differently from the emulators, as stephena said. Has anyone tried loading these "cheating" ROMs onto an EPROM and running it on the real hardware? I tried the Autoplay one on the Harmony cart (no difference, no surprise), but Todd didn't use the Harmony cart to get 5.51.

Edited August 31, 2017 by JeremiahK

[Northcoastgamer]

I have it on good authority that it takes 5.51 licks...

Using real hardware or emulation? Or is that a typo?

[CapitanClassic]

I don't think any of his scores have been said to be lies. Any of them that have been previously disqualified as world records in the TG database have been rom variations of early non-public releases by Activision or maybe even typos by Activision -- like Sky Jinks, Stampede, Barnstorming, and Starmaster game 4. I was the one who challenged Todd's scores on Stampede, Starmaster game 4, and Sky Jinks. (Starmaster game 4 has a bug in the scoring.) I even doubted some of his scores on Decathlon until I saw him play in person. I never doubted those Decathlon scores any longer! Todd has proven to me many times that he is quite honest. We should be looking for ways to support his score rather than ways to pile on more alleged evidence against his score.

I doubt the 1,000,000 point Fathom score.

 

Fathom ends after the 7th level. The mermaid swims away and the Imagic address is displayed. There is no way to continue. I doubt you can score 100,000 let alone a million.