Colony 7 (2600) in Stella with trackball?

[Swami]

I got a 2600-daptor, just missing a cable yet. Then I can test Atari and Amiga mouse but not CX22/80.

Since the CX80 could be either the CX22 or ST compatible version, it is a roll of the dice which it will be if you buy one, so I am wondering if an ST trackball mouse is functionally identical to the "ST compatible" CX80. i.e., is it smarter to just buy an ST trackball mouse rather than hoping to get the ST style CX80 or modding the CX22 compatible CX80? There also seem to be ST trackball mice such as the one below that are ST and Amiga compatible. Will these 2-model compatible mice work with the CX80 hacks?* Thanks.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Atari-520-1040-ST-STE-Mega-Falcon-computer-Amiga-500-600-1200-trackball-/152519136477?hash=item2382d954dd:g:dEwAAOxyIv5TlInd*

 

*The 2-model compatible mice use a switch that I think just adjusts the pinout, so should be the same as two separate trackballs.

[alex_79]

 

Since the CX80 could be either the CX22 or ST compatible version, it is a roll of the dice which it will be if you buy one

 

There's no evidence that an ST-compatible CX80 ever existed. And it's unlikely that atari would have changed the protocol without indication of that on the box and the controller itself. I believe that the very few units out there that were reported to be St compatible, were modified by end users or local shop/distributors.

 

CX22 and other trackballs can easily be modified for ST as well, so you never know what you'll end up with when buying one, altough probably chances of finding a modified unit are low.

Edited August 31, 2017 by alex_79

[Swami]

 

There's no evidence that an ST-compatible CX80 ever existed. And it's unlikely that atari would have changed the protocol without indication of that on the box and the controller itself. I believe that the very few units out there that were reported to be St compatible, were modified by end users or local shop/distributors.

 

CX22 and other trackballs can easily be modified for ST as well, so you never know what you'll end up with when buying one, altough probably chances of finding a modified unit are low.

This would make more sense.

[iesposta]

 

There's no evidence that an ST-compatible CX80 ever existed. And it's unlikely that atari would have changed the protocol without indication of that on the box and the controller itself. I believe that the very few units out there that were reported to be St compatible, were modified by end users or local shop/distributors.

 

CX22 and other trackballs can easily be modified for ST as well, so you never know what you'll end up with when buying one, altough probably chances of finding a modified unit are low.

Agreed.

It's safe to assume in this case the CX80's are the same as CX22's.

Very, very few operate otherwise, and those were probably modded by users.

 

That's why the file names were changed.

Any real AA carts will auto-detect the trackball type.

[Swami]

I also have an Atari and Amiga mouse. The Atari one is an actual Atari one that came from an ST, maybe? But the Amiga one is actually dual-purpose, in that it has a switch on it to make it compatible with either Amiga or Atari. I believe it's a 'Wizard' mouse. I also have a Stelladator and multiple versions of 2600-daptor. I haven't tried these mice with Stella yet, mostly since I haven't had any time.

 

I don't have, nor have I ever seen, a CX22 or CX80 trakball controller. So a donation of one (or both) of these would be appreciated.

 

 

I got a 2600-daptor, just missing a cable yet. Then I can test Atari and Amiga mouse but not CX22/80.

 

The Alfa Data Atari ST/Amiga trackball mouse I ordered just arrived and I tested it out on the Colony 7 CX80 hack with Stella 5.0.2. Atari Mouse mode and my 2600daptor ][ set to CX80. For my CX22 and CX80 (with CX22 internals) I had to set mouse sensitivity to 100% to get good response, with the Atari mouse, this was way too much sensitivity and had to set it to 50% or less. Using the 2600daptor ][ with the Atari mouse, it works on my desktop like a slightly slower ordinary optical trackball mouse. In Colony 7, it works great, except that Stella appears to have a similar issue of the occasionally appearing "invisible borders" stopping the mouse except they are more complicated than with the CX22 modes. In CX22 modes, the CX22/80 would occasionally run into an invisible border in one direction and a good spin in the opposite direction would fix it, as if it had run out of axis in that direction and needed to be spun back towards the trackball axis width center. In the Atari mouse modes, it occasionally hits invisible borders to the left and right and/or up and down, restricting movement in opposite directions at the same time. The mouse does not behave erratically, it just doesn't move beyond certain points. Then it just goes away after a while. This is true for both the Alfa Data mouse and my Kensington Expert trackball mouse, so it appears to be an artifact of Stella or the CX80 hack. Also, both trackball mice work flawlessly in desktop mode. Otherwise, the mice and Colony 7 hacks work superbly in Stella 5.0.2.

 

I am curious what the Game Properties > Controller > "Mouse Axis Range" parameter does.

 

There does not seem to be a way to use the Alfa Data Amiga mouse setting with Windows in general or Stella, due to no setting on 2600daptor. I assume Amiga mouse setting in Stella is only used with the PC's USB mouse.

 

As an aside, the Alpha Data Atari Trackball mouse works good, as far as the trackball goes, but the left click button seems finicky in both Stella and Windows desktop, sometimes not acting and other times acting twice when it is pushed.

[dualcam]

 

There does not seem to be a way to use the Alfa Data Amiga mouse setting with Windows in general or Stella, due to no setting on 2600daptor.

 

Amiga mouse is switch 1 down, 2 up -

http://2600-daptor.com/2600-firmware.htm

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

[Swami]

 

Amiga mouse is switch 1 down, 2 up -

http://2600-daptor.com/2600-firmware.htm

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

Okay. Thanks! Guess it was a little unexpected in 7800 switch configuration, but I see it is there in the website instructions. I'm assuing you need to plug in the USB with the datpor2 in mouse boot mode first, like with the Atari mouse, or do you plug it in directly as 7800 mode?

[dualcam]

Okay. Thanks! Guess it was a little unexpected in 7800 switch configuration, but I see it is there in the website instructions. I'm assuing you need to plug in the USB with the datpor2 in mouse boot mode first, like with the Atari mouse, or do you plug it in directly as 7800 mode?

 

Yes, first plug the adapter in with both switches down to put into mouse mode, then the mouse mode switch position settings apply. I should probably move the mouse mode switch info to the main web page.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

[Swami]

 

Yes, first plug the adapter in with both switches down to put into mouse mode, then the mouse mode switch position settings apply. I should probably move the mouse mode switch info to the main web page.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

Naw, just my fault for being too lazy to search the website for another mouse setting.

[Swami]

Tested Amiga Mouse mode on Stella, Colony 7 and 2600daptor ][ . Play was about the same as with Atari Mouse, with same invisible barrier problem.

 

I figured out the limitation with using mouse for emulation in joystick mode. When the mouse cursor reaches the edge of the screen, the game cross-hairs stop moving in that direction (since the mouse cursor can't move anymore). However, since the mouse cursor moves much faster (about 4 times faster under a normal use setting) than the game cross-hairs, the cross-hairs are limited to a couple of inches in each direction. If I slow the mouse cursor to the minimum in Windows settings, the cross-hairs have twice the room to move. If I switch to the lower dpi physical cx22 trackball and use mouse emulation of joystick mode, now I can use the cross-hairs across the full screen, although I sometimes have to adjust if the cursor reaches the screen edge before the cross-hairs. I should add that by the time I got it working decent, the cross-hairs moved so slow, it was more practical to use the CX22 trackball in joystick mode than to use a mouse or CX22 as mouse in Stella's joystick emulation mode.

 

I wonder if a similar mouse-cursor-running-out-of-room problem is causing the invisible barrier issue with the CX22 and CX80/atarimouse play.

 

I also got time to try MousetoJoy, although it is now in a much more comprehensive program called UCR (universal control remapper) created by someone called "evilc", available on github, which has pretty much every remapping combination you can imagine, except it doesn't have an auto-launcher to turn the remapping on and off when an app is opened or closed (which I have seen on a similar type of program), although it does have a pretty easy profile switcher. However, the profile switcher (and sometimes the desktop mouse itself) can be inaccessible for all practical purposes once you turn on a profile that messes with your mouse axis and button functions.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

How wide is that invisible barrier? I suppose only a few pixel, correct?

Then I suppose (I don't have the code at the moment) the code checks if the new coordinate is out of bounds. And instead of setting it to the bounds then, it keeps the old value. Would that fit to what is happening to you?

[Swami]

How wide is that invisible barrier? I suppose only a few pixel, correct?

 

> I' don't know if this describes the nature of the problem. What I observe is that the cross-hairs can't go any further. It is more like the travel axis just ends. However the "end of the axis" changes intermittently with time. If there is a pixel barrier interfering with movement that comes and goes that would describe it, but I don't know the dimensions of it.

 

Then I suppose (I don't have the code at the moment) the code checks if the new coordinate is out of bounds. And instead of setting it to the bounds then, it keeps the old value. Would that fit to what is happening to you?

 

> This sounds like a possibility, but I am not sure why it is intermittent then.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

I really need to know how much this barrier changes.

Until then I can only guess that it depends on the speed you are moving. If you are moving fast and my guess from the mail above is right, then slow movement should always allow to move to the border, while with fast movement, the border seems to vary.

Example (border at 10)

initial pos|speed|result pos
9           1     10
9           2     9   ! 
8           2     10  
6           5     6   !
5           5     10

Edited September 17, 2017 by Thomas Jentzsch

[Swami]

 

I really need to know how much this barrier changes.

 

Until then I can only guess that it depends on the speed you are moving. If you are moving fast and my guess from the mail above is right, then slow movement should always allow to move to the border, while with fast movement, the border seems to vary.

 

Example (border at 10)

initial pos|speed|result pos
9           1     10
9           2     9   ! 
8           2     10  
6           5     6   !
5           5     10

I have confirmed the problem is caused by needing to turn off "grab mouse in emulation mode" when using the 2600daptor. When you use the USB mouse with this turned on, both CX22 and Atari mouse/CX80 work flawlessly. When using the 2600daptor with the CX22 or Atari mouse (aka CX80), for the more realistic experience, the trackball does not work well if "grab mouse in emulation" is turned on. However, when "grab mouse in emulation" in turned off, the motion of the cross-hairs becomes restricted by when the Windows mouse cursor reaches the edge of the screen, with the cross-hairs and Windows cursor often out of sync. I determined this by leaving the Windows mouse cursor on in Stella while playing and seeing the exact same behavior. Normally the mouse cursor is turned off because it is a distraction having it moving around in the play screen. If you have trackball/mouse sensitivity turned up to 100%, this is not such a problem because the cross-hairs motion more closely matches the Windows cursor. When using the Atari mouse at 100% sensitivity, the game play in unrealistic because you can move the cross-hairs across the screen with a couple mm of movement. It worked fairly well with the CX22 trackball and 2600daptor because you had to set sensitivity to 100% due to the lower dpi of the CX22, thus you just needed the occasional opposite spin on the trackball to re-center the Windows cursor. I can say that the CX22 and Atarimouse/CX80 version with Stella in trackball mode using a USB mouse with "grab mouse in emulation" on are implementations where everything works flawlessly.

 

Currently, it would appear using the CX22/80 trackballs is often best only with actual hardware or with the 2600daptor in joystick mode. Trackball modes in Stella are best if used with the natively USB mouse/trackball with "grab mouse in emulation" on.

[Swami]

 

I really need to know how much this barrier changes.

 

Until then I can only guess that it depends on the speed you are moving. If you are moving fast and my guess from the mail above is right, then slow movement should always allow to move to the border, while with fast movement, the border seems to vary.

 

Example (border at 10)

initial pos|speed|result pos
9           1     10
9           2     9   ! 
8           2     10  
6           5     6   !
5           5     10

One belated addition: The atari mouse and amiga mouse can be used with the 2600daptor with either trackball hack with "grab mouse in emulation" if mouse sensitivity is turned up to 100%, even though this is way too sensitive if "grab mouse in emulation" is turned off. For the actual CX22/CX80 trak-balls, they also work as a mouse with "grab mouse in emulation" turned on, but even at 100% mouse sensitivity, the cross-hairs motion is about 2-3 times slower than you would want it. With "grab mouse in emulation" turned off, CX22/80 motion is acceptable, but "runs out off axis" occasionally due to Windows cursor hitting the edge of the screen and needs the opposite direction spin to re-center Windows cursor. This may be correctable by turning the mouse speed down in Windows settings. Just for summary, the usb mouse, atari mouse and amiga mouse do not work well with "grab mouse in emulation" turned off because the Windows cursor moves so much faster than the cross-hairs, even if Windows setting turns the mouse speed all the way down. These mouse trackballs might also have a lessened issue with "grab mouse in emulation" off, if mouse sensitivity is set very high and Windows mouse settings is set to minimum cursor speed, but I would recommend keeping "grab mouse in emulation" on for these mouse trackballs and reserving max trackball sensitivity in Stella and minimum cursor speed in Windows settings only if using the CX22/80 with 2600daptor.

 

I can conclusively say that the issues I observed are due to the game motion still being linked to (and often limited by) the Windows mouse cursor motion, which is not in sync, when "grab mouse in emulation" is turned off.

 

Edit: For using trackballs with Stella games with no trackballs hacks, use a CX22/80 trak-ball with 2600daptor and use joystick mode for all three components or use "Universal Control Remapping" app with USB or atari mouse axes mapped to four keyboard direction buttons. If you remap the "left-click" button on your mouse you will have to use keyboard keys to get around or find a program to substitute the left mouse button with another mouse button or keyboard key. It is possible a simple re-mapping another key/button to the left mouse button and using that key may just activate whatever key/button the left mouse button was remapped to, but not sure.

 

WinKey+D = allow highlight desktop icon

arrow keys = select different desktop icons

Enter = select

Alt+Tab = select different open apps

Alt+F4 = close a selected app (specifically closing UCR)

Shift+F10 = mouse right-click, shortcut menu

 

There does not seem to be a good universal "left-click mouse" keyboard shortcut

 

If things get really wacky, you may need to use Task Manager to shut UCR down or do a PC reset to get the mouse button to work normally again. There are basic tutorials for using UCR on youtube and Steam. Both CX22/80 joystick mode and UCR are a little slower than an actual trackball hack, but I think UCR is a little faster than joystick mode, perhaps because you are using a newer mouse trackball and software rather than the older CX22/80 trak-ball.

 

This UCR setup seemed to work well enough to get in and out of Stella and close the UCR app. YMMV. I have a "profile 1" which is empty that I switch to and save before closing. This is probably backwards as this should be the default profile. I have the left-click mouse button mapped to a fire key "a" and the middle mouse button mapped to the left-click mouse button.

[mr_me]

I'm thinking the old low resolution trackballs/mice might have something to do with it. With low resolution input devices, pixels might be skipped with fast movement confusing Stella into thinking the cursor has stopped. Stella was likely programmed with modern high resolution input.

 

...

 

I am curious what the Game Properties > Controller > "Mouse Axis Range" parameter does.

 

...

 

As an aside, the Alpha Data Atari Trackball mouse works good, as far as the trackball goes, but the left click button seems finicky in both Stella and Windows desktop, sometimes not acting and other times acting twice when it is pushed.

The "mouse axis range" setting only affects paddle games and can limit the onscreen movement. It has no effect on games programmed to use trackballs.

 

It would be nice if we could use keyboard buttons at the same time as mouse buttons in Stella.

[dualcam]

I suspect Stella is going off the cursor coordinate position, which can be limited to the screen or the current window. Instead would want to use the raw mouse relative motion, which I believe is xrel,yrel here -

 

http://wiki.libsdl.org/SDL_MouseMotionEvent?highlight=%28%5CbCategoryStruct%5Cb%29%7C%28CategoryEvents%29

 

EDIT: Opened a github report on this.

 

Tom

http://2600-daptor.com/

Edited September 22, 2017 by dualcam

[iesposta]

Perhaps the most interesting thing is that I'm now using my CX-80 as my PC mouse.

 

 

Interesting! I'll remember that now that I have two Stelladapter II's and CX40s & CX80s.

 

Since 1994 my preference has been Kensington trackball pointers with computers.

I always hated the mouse pickup, move back motion.

My 1st mouse was the 2011 Bluetooth wireless mouse that came with the iMac which I also got the Bluetooth Touchpad.

 

I'm on my 3rd Kensington at work - since the mid-90s.

It has 4 corner buttons and a scroll ring around the billiard size Ball.

I have the wireless USB Kensington at home.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

@Swami I suppose the problem still exists, right?

 

I finally found the time to test with my own controllers (e.g. Alfa Data TB) and was not able to reproduce the problems you describe. Now I wonder what is different between our setups.

 

Ideas:

• If you have a high resolution mouse, this might interfere with the much lower resolution of the trackballs.
• The OS mouse driver or setup (e.g. speed, acceleration) might be different to mine
• I tested with Stella's default settings, maybe you can try these too

If anyone has more ideas forward them to us.