Atari's plans to use CV hardware back in 1983

[zzip]

The cost difference between 16K and 48K was quite large in those days.

[7800fan]

So what would a CV adapter for 5200 cost today? Using RAM chips that don't require funky negative voltage, all common off the shelf part plus CV BIOS (because those IP zombies won't rise from the grave to sue for unauthorized sale of BIOS reproduction) and it seems like it could be done today.

 

I'd like to see someone make one and then plug a 2600 adapter into CV adapter!

[kiwilove]

I did look up some ColecoVision games running on Video - but I saw nothing that shows a superior hardware/software running well --- apart from Donkey Kong and the Smurfs - what other games looked worthwhile playing on the CV?

Also I couldn't see that much in the 7800 games (on video) that said this was a great new videogame system - apart from Galaga and Xevious? (I know that 7800 Xevious could have looked that little bit better with it's forests)...

 

The NES was the overall winner of this time - because it had the suitable hardware (many multi-coloured sprites) - and the software support (commercial companies) behind it.

Atari lacked the software support - for it's 8-bit line of hardware. Probably because it was not a market share leader anymore... This was a commercial business - and programmers/developers wanted financial reward for their effort.

The Atari 8-bit computers started well with some really nice innovative titles developed for it - from 3rd Party companies. Sadly when the C-64 appeared with it's low pricing - this meant the C64 became a dominant leader after it's first? year - and it was nice to see the Ataris competing well with the same title in the C64 vs Atari 8-bit comparisons.

 

Harvey

[+DamonicFury]

Bill Loguidice, on 06 Sept 2017 - 4:26 PM, said:

The issue with Atari making the 5200 an 800 clone is that that would have further increased the retail price. As it was, it already cost more than the ColecoVision. With the 400/800 being so advanced relative to their release in the late 70s, it was difficult for Atari to find much in the way of cost savings/reductions. They would have had to have waited until the latter part of 1983 most likely to come up with a more powerful version of the 5200 that didn't break the bank. That might have given the ColecoVision too much time as the sole console powerhouse, creating a gap that would have been difficult to overcome.

 

 

 

The cost difference between 16K and 48K was quite large in those days.

 

I'll grant that a 48K console may well have been unaffordable in 1982. But I still think they would have been better off putting a variation of the 16K 400 motherboard in a new shell with no keyboard than making all the unnecessary changes that resulted in the 5200. Such a console would have had enormous expandability with it's SIO port, a port to add a keyboard, and slots for more memory.

 

According to the below article, such an idea was indeed considered but nixed by the game console team as they were afraid of letting the computer team "take over" their territory. Such shortsighted, petty foolishness seems all too believable.

 

https://archive.org/stream/creativecomputing-1984-03/Creative_Computing_v10_n03_1984_Mar#page/n53/mode/2up

 

"The games division, having finally managed with the VCS 2600 game unit to overtake the coin-op division as profit leader, saw the home computer division as a threat rather than a savior. If any of their new machines could expand into true computers, the reins would automatically be handed over to the home computer division. To the games division, this was a fate worse than death."

 

[Bill Loguidice]

I did look up some ColecoVision games running on Video - but I saw nothing that shows a superior hardware/software running well --- apart from Donkey Kong and the Smurfs - what other games looked worthwhile playing on the CV?

Also I couldn't see that much in the 7800 games (on video) that said this was a great new videogame system - apart from Galaga and Xevious? (I know that 7800 Xevious could have looked that little bit better with it's forests)...

 

The NES was the overall winner of this time - because it had the suitable hardware (many multi-coloured sprites) - and the software support (commercial companies) behind it.

Atari lacked the software support - for it's 8-bit line of hardware. Probably because it was not a market share leader anymore... This was a commercial business - and programmers/developers wanted financial reward for their effort.

The Atari 8-bit computers started well with some really nice innovative titles developed for it - from 3rd Party companies. Sadly when the C-64 appeared with it's low pricing - this meant the C64 became a dominant leader after it's first? year - and it was nice to see the Ataris competing well with the same title in the C64 vs Atari 8-bit comparisons.

 

Harvey

 

I think your assessment is a bit superficial. With that said, it's also important to remember all of this in the context of the times. The ColecoVision really was the hot videogame product for a time after its launch. Coleco did a fantastic job of selling the arcade angle, even though, obviously, it was lacking in many ways. The Atari 5200 launched with a lacklustre line-up, with a been-there, done-that, feel to it all, because it was mostly rehashes of the same stuff already on the market. Coleco, not having access to the same Atari IP, obviously, had no choice but to go after what Atari (and Mattel) didn't. It's hard to overstate how this "forced" unique game thing helped the ColecoVision's standing, along with all the other things Coleco got right (packaging, advertising, etc.).

 

Same thing with the 7800. It should have seen wide release in 1984, not a few years later. In 1984, it was rather more exciting, although again, as the engineer himself pointed out in the memo, the backlash to such a release so soon after the 5200 might have been a bit rough. All moot though because of the Crash.

[kiwilove]

I am interested enough to want to see what the ColecoVision was capable of? Donkey Kong was the game that sold the system - but were there others as strong? What I saw on video did not convince me that it was - but that video may not have captured the quality? present - as Youtube videos tend to drop frames out, and is dependent upon the supplier to provide the quality image in the first place. My impression from the history - was that it was the Adam computer which sank Coleco? That this hardware failed in terms of failure to work and sank the company. I haven't looked into any possible homebrew efforts for the ColecoVision? Has anyone tried to push this hardware to it's limits?

 

Atari marketing etc failed miserably in knowing what it's got (in terms of hardware) and making the best use of that - it tried to stand up against the Apple II - in terms of education and productivity etc - but really it was in the videogames area - that the Atari 400/800 excelled over the Apple II - with hardware sprites, scrolling and various graphic modes - with sound. It could have dominated the market - being there early - but when the C-64 appeared - it had to step up - or die.

The 5200 being a butchered 400 - was an idea that should have been launched much earlier - though some may be confused over which to buy? The 400 or the 5200. I think the best titles for the 5200 comes from the Atari 400 - from non-Atari companies who exploited the 400/800 hardware capabilities. Mid 80s' coin-ops added more and more hardware sprites and so became a pain to do on 400/800/etc hardware - and so the C-64 was better capable of doing such games.

While the 7800 addressed this weakness - I felt it did so but dropped the ball on the background graphics. I remember the Electronic Games preview on the 7800 which glowed praise all over it - but the screenshots did not show this off. You have only to look at the Desert Falcon game to see - this is not a killer title - it needed something new and breath taking - like when Star Raiders first appeared - or like the coin-op Zaxxon - when that appeared in the arcades. It's only with 2 unreleased demos - that was done in the early 90s? that could show what the 7800 could really do?

I think the NES rightfully dominated by providing the quality present in hardware and software - in leading the home market for videogames - I have had to reluctantly admit this when playing a few NES games back in the day. There were no Atari-equivalents to the top NES games.

 

Harvey

[youki]

I haven't looked into any possible homebrew efforts for the ColecoVision? Has anyone tried to push this hardware to it's limits?

 

 

I don't think this game push "the limits" , but they are good example what a standard colecovision is capable of without extension.

 

Personnally , i don't think the coleco is better than the 5200 or that the 5200 is better than the coleco. They have both pro and Con . Like the A800 and the C64.

But the strength of Colecovision and the C64 compared to the Atari Hardware ,is that they are extremely easy to program.

As "standard" without big effort or tricky routines you can do very good game. Where on 5200 or A800 to do the same thing will require lot of more programming effort.

So in conclusion is you need 3 month to do a game on one machine and 6 to do the same thing on the other.... cost is not the same.

So you can have a machine with more potential than the other but if to access the full potential the cost is to high , this machine is less good from business point of view.

[kiwilove]

Thanks youki for pointing out those Colecovision games - Mecha-8 and Ghostblaster particularly stands out. I did see the TwinBee conversion which was OK except for the single coloured sprites, so Mecha-8 showed how that could have been improved further?

Yes - it would be an advantage for a system to be easier to program for - to get things up and running straight away - but Star Raiders does not use any special graphic tricks or modes but it does have a lot of stuff going on at the same time? All squeezed down into 8K. But using Star Raiders as an example is rather unfair because it's too complex a program for any beginner programmer to take on, as their first project.

 

I do agree that when more resources are thrown at a system - that's when you are able to see how far that system can go? Like with Ghostblaster. The Sinclair Spectrum computer was never designed for videogames in mind, for it's regular use - and it is quite amazing to see what programmers did with it. One wonders what could they have done - if they worked on a C-64 or Atari 8-bit computer instead? But it would not be a valid question - as those computers would not have been within their budget? Or it would have been 2 or so years later for them to be within it...

 

Harvey

Edited September 8, 2017 by kiwilove

[Bryan]

Very interesting. The 5200 is greatly hamstrung by it's scattered memory map and incomplete cartridge and expansion ports. I'm sure these were done this way to save a nickel here and there. Atari had years to develop the successor to the 2600 and instead dumped money into a wide range of products that never made it to market. In the end, the 5200 had more effort put into its aesthetics than its hardware. I don't agree with all the sentiments in the memo (the 5200's sound is certainly not inferior), but it's nice to see that someone saw what was happening back in the day.

 

Also, thanks to this memo, I learned the word interdigitated.

[Andromeda Stardust]

Very interesting. The 5200 is greatly hamstrung by it's scattered memory map and incomplete cartridge and expansion ports. I'm sure these were done this way to save a nickel here and there. Atari had years to develop the successor to the 2600 and instead dumped money into a wide range of products that never made it to market. In the end, the 5200 had more effort put into its aesthetics than its hardware. I don't agree with all the sentiments in the memo (the 5200's sound is certainly not inferior), but it's nice to see that someone saw what was happening back in the day.

 

Also, thanks to this memo, I learned the word interdigitated.

 

 

 

Definition of interdigitate

interdigitated

; interdigitating

1. intransitive verb

2. : to become interlocked like the fingers of folded hands

interdigitation

play \ˌin-tər-ˌdi-jə-ˈtā-shən\ noun

Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/interdigitate

[Andromeda Stardust]

Just wanted to add my two cents. The internal memo was a fascinating read as well as the comments that it inspired. Obviously Atari went in a completely different direction by comissioning the 7800 from GCC with b/c with 2600. The 7800 would have been a formidable opponent to NES if only Traimel hadn't penny pinched and hired great developers and had the Pokey preinstalled in the console rather than as an optional cartridge extra, and released it as planned in 1984. The arcade port launch titles were old news when the 7800 finally launched in 1986, and NES shipped with brand new games and a far superior version of Donkey Kong. But you can't rewrite history...

[youki]

Just wanted to add my two cents. The internal memo was a fascinating read as well as the comments that it inspired. Obviously Atari went in a completely different direction by comissioning the 7800 from GCC with b/c with 2600. The 7800 would have been a formidable opponent to NES if only Traimel hadn't penny pinched and hired great developers and had the Pokey preinstalled in the console rather than as an optional cartridge extra, and released it as planned in 1984. The arcade port launch titles were old news when the 7800 finally launched in 1986, and NES shipped with brand new games and a far superior version of Donkey Kong. But you can't rewrite history...

 

I don't think it is Tramiel 's fault , If i remember well when Tramiel came to Atari the 7800 was ready. And Tramiel was not able to put it on sell in 1984 due to some legal issues.

[mr_me]

 

I don't think it is Tramiel 's fault , If i remember well when Tramiel came to Atari the 7800 was ready. And Tramiel was not able to put it on sell in 1984 due to some legal issues.

There were no legal issues delaying the 7800 only Tramiel's checkbook. GCC was owed money that was all. And if Atari had any interest in competing in 1986 they would have had to invest in developing games, which they didn't.

 

The memo is interesting. Problematic controllers was a given, but it looks like internally Atari did not like the 5200 system. The Coleco Vision effectively had a higher resolution so static screens looked great compared to the 5200 or 7800 but it had flaws. Only four monochrome sprites per scanline so lots of flicker. No hardware pixel scrolling, and the sound is not that great. Static pictures look good so Zaxxon looks better than it plays, not that Zaxxon is a great game to begin with. The rest of the initial CV library is not that exciting with Smurfs and Cabbage Patch Kids, and arcade games I hadn't heard of. Donkey Kong alone sold Coleco Visions and made it the leader. It became the more popular system in 1983 and attracted third party developers. Its library was getting interesting when everything started to fall apart.

[youki]

There were no legal issues delaying the 7800 only Tramiel's checkbook. GCC was owed money that was all. And if Atari had any interest in competing in 1986 they would have had to invest in developing games, which they didn't.

 

I don'"t what happened really, but i have read other version of that story. Tramiel wanted to release the 7800 in 1984 (to have fresh money to develop the ST) but General Computer hadn't been paid at this time. And there was a legal battle to know who should pay the royalties to GC , Tramiel or Wagner..... and finally Tramiel had to pay.... i suppose then this money did not go in developping games...

[BillyHW]

Why did the memo writer think the ColecoVision had better sound?

[empsolo]

 

I don'"t what happened really, but i have read other version of that story. Tramiel wanted to release the 7800 in 1984 (to have fresh money to develop the ST) but General Computer hadn't been paid at this time. And there was a legal battle to know who should pay the royalties to GC , Tramiel or Wagner..... and finally Tramiel had to pay.... i suppose then this money did not go in developping games...

From what I understand is that Tremiel wanted to sell it, yes but so vastly under cost that GCC would get next to practically nothing in return in terms of royalties. This leads me to believe that Tremiel wanted to sell it as a cheap toy just sell it on the market and not really interested in supporting the thing with robust dev cycles.

 

It explains why Atari Corp never really had any internal development Studio teams to push the system unlike Nintendo's famous R&D teams for the NES/Famicom and Sega's people on the Mark III/Master System.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited September 9, 2017 by empsolo

[zzip]

 

I don't think it is Tramiel 's fault , If i remember well when Tramiel came to Atari the 7800 was ready. And Tramiel was not able to put it on sell in 1984 due to some legal issues.

 

It wasn't quite ready. I think it was announced at 1984's January CES with intention for 1984 fall release. Tramiel bought Atari that summer. At the time I don't think he was all that interested in selling videogame consoles. His main focus was on the ST, and supporting the XL line to a lesser extent. In the meantime, GCC delivered, but he held off on paying them.

 

Like many in the industry, he thought consoles were dead. In fact at Commodore he was largely responsible for the "computers, not consoles" gospel.

 

But Atari needed cash, so when the uptick in console games happened around 1986, he decided to finally pay GCC and cash in with the existing inventories.

[mr_me]

What makes you say the 7800 wasn't ready? GCC had 14 cartridges ready to go when Tramiel moved in on July 1. If not 1984 then how about 1985? Not sure what deal GCC had with Warner Atari but GCC was clearly in control of the Maria chip and the game copyrights. Tramiel Atari and GCC couldn't come to an agreement and GCC wasn't going to give it away. There's two sides to every story and here's GCC's side. http://www.usgamer.net/amp/steve-golson-interview-the-story-of-ms-pac-man-the-atari-7800-and-the-hyperdrive/page-2

 

It's hard to blame Tramiel. It would gave taken a big financial investment to compete in video game consoles and he might simply not have been able to do it.

 

The other interesting thing in the Atari memo is blaming the 5200 failure on the lack of production capacity. Was it really hard to get a 5200 at Christmas 1982 or was it that people would rather have Donkey Kong than Super Breakout.

[zzip]

What makes you say the 7800 wasn't ready? GCC had 14 cartridges ready to go when Tramiel moved in on July 1. If not 1984 then how about 1985? Not sure what deal GCC had with Warner Atari but GCC was clearly in control of the Maria chip and the game copyrights. Tramiel Atari and GCC couldn't come to an agreement and GCC wasn't going to give it away. There's two sides to every story and here's GCC's side. http://www.usgamer.net/amp/steve-golson-interview-the-story-of-ms-pac-man-the-atari-7800-and-the-hyperdrive/page-2

 

It's hard to blame Tramiel. It would gave taken a big financial investment to compete in video game consoles and he might simply not have been able to do it.

 

The other interesting thing in the Atari memo is blaming the 5200 failure on the lack of production capacity. Was it really hard to get a 5200 at Christmas 1982 or was it that people would rather have Donkey Kong than Super Breakout.

 

By ready, I mean ready to ship to retailers. Maybe they really were ready to be shipped by June, but I would expect that date to be later in the summer.

 

I'm not really blaming Tramiel. I just think it is pretty clear that computers were his focus, and he didn't really care about consoles-- at least until he realized they could still bring in the $$$

 

In 1984, Tramiel's position seemed like the the correct position. In retrospect we know that the computer ambitions were a dead end as PC dominance was pretty inevitable, while videogame leadership was still up for grabs. But hindsight is 20/20

[mr_me]

Shipping by November would have been okay. Maybe five months is not enough time. How about 1985?. That was me unfairly blaming Tramiel; if he doesn't have the money he simply can't compete.

[empsolo]

Shipping by November would have been okay. Maybe five months is not enough time. How about 1985?. That was me unfairly blaming Tramiel; if he doesn't have the money he simply can't compete.

If that's the case then there was never any realistic chance of Atari Corp getting the Japanese third parties or any major third party for that matter to support the system.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bill Loguidice]

If that's the case then there was never any realistic chance of Atari Corp getting the Japanese third parties or any major third party for that matter to support the system.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

That's hindsight talking, though, too. It's important to remember that the majority of developer/publisher talent was in the US pre-Crash. The balance of power really only started to shift with the rise of the NES. In other words, there wouldn't necessarily have been a good reason to pursue Japanese third parties at that time, and certainly not as some type of pre-emptive strike.

[zzip]

 

That's hindsight talking, though, too. It's important to remember that the majority of developer/publisher talent was in the US pre-Crash. The balance of power really only started to shift with the rise of the NES. In other words, there wouldn't necessarily have been a good reason to pursue Japanese third parties at that time, and certainly not as some type of pre-emptive strike.

 

Agreed.. companies like Nintendo porting Japanese games is what created the demand for Japanese content in the first place.

 

Although there were a number of Japanese companies releasing games in the US pre-crash too Taito/Sega/Nintendo/Namco/Konami, etc.

[mr_me]

Third party developers wherever they are will develop for successfull consoles wherever they are. If you want to sell consoles to make it attractive to third party developers you have to develop good, relevent games yourself and that costs money. Like Bill L said there were talented programmers in North America. In fact because of the NA market it would have been easy for Atari to contract them to produce new relevent games, if they had the money. Even if they had the money it was risky.

[Bill Loguidice]

Although there were a number of Japanese companies releasing games in the US pre-crash too Taito/Sega/Nintendo/Namco/Konami, etc.

 

Absolutely, although I don't believe very many of those games were actually developed on the Japanese side. They were just licenses and the actual development was done by someone in the US.