4-joystick adapter -- production advice?

[gauauu]

So I've recently been working on a project to make a 4-joystick adapter for the VCS (using the 2nd player port on output mode to drive some multiplexers, and thus reading all 4 joysticks from the 1st-player port). I've got a working prototype going now (which I'll be posting about in the 2600 or other forums) soldered on perfboard. In theory, I'd like to get this thing into a state where I can make and sell these relatively cheaply, but I have zero experience in dealing with hardware production.

 

So just thought I'd ask for some general advice for doing so. I started looking at PCB design software, and think I can come up with a PCB design. It looks like getting them made in China and shipped over is a lot more cost-effective than printing them here. Any advice regarding that?

 

Also, there's about 100 solder joints required and I'm terrible at soldering. If I'm soldering this myself, I'm going to use giant components (big fat resistors, dual-in-line-package multiplexer ICs, etc) But alternatively, some of the PCB companies do assembly for you, does anyone have experience/advice about that route? (or I could possibly just find and pay some random person to solder them for me?) I've been told the whole thing will be cheaper if I use small surface-mount components, but the thought of trying to assemble that gives me nightmares.

 

Anyway, if anyone has an any advice, suggestions, or warnings, please let me know!

[BigO]

This is a little off topic, but is the hardware release going to coincide with a game that makes use of the four joysticks? Never mind. Just saw the other thread.

 

 

Barely on topic, I'd be interested in reading about your experience with producing something like this if you happen to be writerly inclined. I hand designed, etched, drilled, stuffed and soldered up some low volume circuit boards years ago. It was quite tedious. I have a more recent classic gaming related (very niche) product that I produce without using a pcb. It's even more tedious.

 

Interesting approach. I kicked around a similar idea, but I was thinking about using the paddle input to replace the fire button then use the original fire button pin to mux two joysticks on each port. Yours kinda makes more sense in that mine would have to be sold as two pieces to read four joysticks.

 

Good luck in your endeavor.

[Memblers]

In my own experience, I find soldering SMT parts to be easier and faster than through-hole. Especially in the case of resistors and caps, you don't need to keep flipping the board over and trimming off leads. Of course I'm talking about SOIC, 0805, and 0603, going smaller than that it starts getting more difficult to hand-solder, and the solder paste stencil and toaster oven method becomes more attractive. SMT boards can be easier to design, when you've got the bottom of the board completely available for routing traces.

 

For the boards, quality and price from China is hard to beat locally. I use MyroPCB and PCBWay, with both of those you can enter your data on their site and get bare board and assembly quotes automatically. You definitely will want SMT if you go that route. The parts themselves will be cheaper, and the assembly will be cheaper. For assembly you can roughly expect something like $0.015 per pin SMT, maybe $0.15 per pin for through-hole. These companies can buy the parts for you, IME this adds like 10% to the parts cost (for their fee and buying some spares). There are some one-time costs, like paying them to make the stencil, and the value really depends on how many of them you want to make. 20 or 50, hand soldering isn't too bad. 100+, outsourcing it probably starts to look like a better deal.

[gauauu]

 

Interesting approach. I kicked around a similar idea, but I was thinking about using the paddle input to replace the fire button then use the original fire button pin to mux two joysticks on each port. Yours kinda makes more sense in that mine would have to be sold as two pieces to read four joysticks.

 

 

My original plan was actually more similar to yours, but somebody suggested this other idea to me, which seemed easier to deal with (and logically easier to code for as well)

[gauauu]

In my own experience, I find soldering SMT parts to be easier and faster than through-hole. Especially in the case of resistors and caps, you don't need to keep flipping the board over and trimming off leads. Of course I'm talking about SOIC, 0805, and 0603, going smaller than that it starts getting more difficult to hand-solder, and the solder paste stencil and toaster oven method becomes more attractive. SMT boards can be easier to design, when you've got the bottom of the board completely available for routing traces.

 

For the boards, quality and price from China is hard to beat locally. I use MyroPCB and PCBWay, with both of those you can enter your data on their site and get bare board and assembly quotes automatically. You definitely will want SMT if you go that route. The parts themselves will be cheaper, and the assembly will be cheaper. For assembly you can roughly expect something like $0.015 per pin SMT, maybe $0.15 per pin for through-hole. These companies can buy the parts for you, IME this adds like 10% to the parts cost (for their fee and buying some spares). There are some one-time costs, like paying them to make the stencil, and the value really depends on how many of them you want to make. 20 or 50, hand soldering isn't too bad. 100+, outsourcing it probably starts to look like a better deal.

 

 

Thanks for the advice! I didn't realize you hung out here as well, I was meaning to bug you over on the NES forums to get your thoughts

 

Based on that, it sounds like having them do SMT assembly isn't too bad, although I guess I need to do my market research to figure out how many of these things I think would realistically be able to sell.

[+Stephen Moss]

There have been several discussions/questions asking where/best/cheapest to get PCB's manufactured, perhaps try searching those for some suggestion on who to use. Do not look at just the PCB price, also consider the shipping costs and any possible import duty as you may find those come to a comparible cost of local production, for example I have used MyroPCB a few times, for a big job it was great but for a small job, where they could have put them in a jiffy bag via air mail, they always use courier shipping and charge by weight then do something like fill the package up with chinese desk calendars so you get your weight worth of shipping!

 

You need to design your PCB first so that you know the dimentions/numbers and sizes of holes used before you can get a quote and unless you know that they can take the raw file format of the package you will need PCB software that can produce GERBER (preferably RS-274x) files as those are what most production houses require.

If you go the SMT route and are not good at soldering then definately get them assemble, if you want to sold SMT yourself then SOIC & 1204 as they are the biggest and thus easiest to hand solder (0805 ok but smaller gets more difficult).

If you don't mind looking at microcontrollers (i.e. PIC, Arduino) you could probably replace most if not all of your current circuitry with one which might save space as well as componts and thus cost, depending on the software used they can be progremmed in BASIC, C, Assembler or via flowchart/psudo code using software like flowcode (all controller types), great cow basic & Proton some of which is free or has certain free devices although you may need to purchase a dev board/programmer to get your code into the microcontroller.

[the_crayon_king]

So I've recently been working on a project to make a 4-joystick adapter for the VCS (using the 2nd player port on output mode to drive some multiplexers, and thus reading all 4 joysticks from the 1st-player port). I've got a working prototype going now (which I'll be posting about in the 2600 or other forums) soldered on perfboard. In theory, I'd like to get this thing into a state where I can make and sell these relatively cheaply, but I have zero experience in dealing with hardware production.

 

So just thought I'd ask for some general advice for doing so. I started looking at PCB design software, and think I can come up with a PCB design. It looks like getting them made in China and shipped over is a lot more cost-effective than printing them here. Any advice regarding that?

 

Also, there's about 100 solder joints required and I'm terrible at soldering. If I'm soldering this myself, I'm going to use giant components (big fat resistors, dual-in-line-package multiplexer ICs, etc) But alternatively, some of the PCB companies do assembly for you, does anyone have experience/advice about that route? (or I could possibly just find and pay some random person to solder them for me?) I've been told the whole thing will be cheaper if I use small surface-mount components, but the thought of trying to assemble that gives me nightmares.

 

Anyway, if anyone has an any advice, suggestions, or warnings, please let me know!

 

EadyEDA is the cheapest I know of for something like this. It also has pretty decent FREE software all online., as in you don't need to download it.

Not sure if they finally stood up their PCB assembly yet but that is something you could ask their customer support about.

 

I'd make two versions one SMD one through hole. So one you could sell through hole as a kit for the end user to put together, the other would get assembled by easyeda but i dunno what they charge per pad.

[gauauu]

I appreciate all your input. What about enclosures/cases? What experiences do y'all have finding cheap enclosures, and getting them cut/drilled appropriately?

[Memblers]

I appreciate all your input. What about enclosures/cases? What experiences do y'all have finding cheap enclosures, and getting them cut/drilled appropriately?

 

One of my older plans, that I didn't carry out (because I've radically changed my design plan so many times..), was to use Bud Industries HP-3650 or similar-style enclosure. They have a replaceable panel on the end, one could design a new panel for it and produce it in acrylic with a laser cutter. Or drill out the plastic, easy enough if you just need a round hole.

 

I started looking at some Chinese enclosure suppliers, so far I've only ordered from SZOMK and the prices for what I'm using (USB enclosures and another small type) have been much cheaper than stuff on Digikey and Mouser. They offer cutouts, drilling, silkscreen, and everything but I haven't had to ask about the pricing on those yet.

[+Stephen Moss]

I appreciate all your input. What about enclosures/cases? What experiences do y'all have finding cheap enclosures, and getting them cut/drilled appropriately?

 

Generally difficult to find cheap enclosures (at least here in the UK) and more so for cheap pre-drilled/cut. There are some companies that will cut & form a case from flat sheet, Crownhill Associated in the UK are only one's I know of who did that but I am sure there are others.

For small enclosures you may want to consider 3D printing and comparing the cost of that to purchasing an enclosure and having it machined as the number of companies that will 3D print items for you are increasing.

If you are going to purchase an enclosure getting one with removable panels would be best, that way you can either machine them yourself, get them done professionally or just get the panels 3D printed, plus if a mistake is made you only need to replace the panel and not the entire enclosure.

[gauauu]

 

Generally difficult to find cheap enclosures (at least here in the UK) and more so for cheap pre-drilled/cut. There are some companies that will cut & form a case from flat sheet, Crownhill Associated in the UK are only one's I know of who did that but I am sure there are others.

For small enclosures you may want to consider 3D printing and comparing the cost of that to purchasing an enclosure and having it machined as the number of companies that will 3D print items for you are increasing.

If you are going to purchase an enclosure getting one with removable panels would be best, that way you can either machine them yourself, get them done professionally or just get the panels 3D printed, plus if a mistake is made you only need to replace the panel and not the entire enclosure.

 

Yeah, I've been considering 3d printing. Thanks for the suggestions.