Why is the importance of ColecoVision almost never brought up historically?

[Pixelboy]

What if companies shipped "game carts" that plugged into the expansion port instead of the cart slot and included "helper chips" that way? Would that have been a feasible way to keep up with NES without splitting the playerbase by requiring a separate peripheral?

 

I'm talking the game and extra HW is on a single cart that plugs into the expansion port

Hmmm... In theory it could work... The thought actually never occurred to me before now.

 

You could put a more advanced graphic chip in this "super cart" that would override the CV's native graphic chip. Same goes for the sound chip, the RAM, and even the CPU. It could override everything the same way as the Expansion Module #1 overrides the regular functionalities of the ColecoVision. But then, you'd need all those components in each and every super cartridge, so it would have been prohibitively expensive BITD. Heck, it would be rather expensive even today, regardless of the coolness factor.

 

EDIT: I do wonder how the Expansion Module #1 tells the ColecoVision to suspend all regular functions, via the expansion port, when the console is first turned on. Does anyone know?

 

EDIT #2: I also have to wonder what kind of limits would be put on this super cartridge because of power supply considerations. I'm not sure, but I think there's only one pin on the expansion port that delivers 5V of power to whatever is plugged into the port. Would 5V be enough to power several chips on a super cartridge in a stable manner?

[zzip]

That could definitely work, but I doubt it would be particularly cost-effective in the Coleco model, and not to mention bulky (though I guess the Neo Geo AES was the king of bulky cartridges). Other systems like the TI-99/4a, for instance, had cartridges that bypassed the cartridge port and used the expansion port instead. Certainly everything is there and more in the Coleco's expansion port, but I just don't think the economics of the time would have worked in its favor, which is why the one-time expense of an expansion module would have been the solution instead. The Famicom had the advantage of being designed for something like this from the start with minimal fuss and relative expense.

It depends on the details, but I think if CV was popular enough, and costs to do such a thing fell over time. I would expect Coleco or another company to try something like this to stay competitive. Of course they might do it wrong and have it flop like the 32X which wasn't yet a cautionary tale..

[Flojomojo]

Just in case the jokes are above anyone's heads (we are a literal group), there's Super Game Module.

 

[VectorGamer]

I guess after being on AtariAge for over 8 years I've seen the discussion of the ColecoVision and scrolling beaten to death...

[Bill Loguidice]

I assumed that was obvious, but I suppose I should never assume. I think the idea was making it into individual cartridges rather than a one-time module. Since not all SGM games make use of every feature (just like not every MMC NES game uses the same mapper), in theory costs could be constrained on a per game basis. I still don't see how it would be practical back in the day, though.

[mr_me]

What if companies shipped "game carts" that plugged into the expansion port instead of the cart slot and included "helper chips" that way? Would that have been a feasible way to keep up with NES without splitting the playerbase by requiring a separate peripheral?

 

I'm talking the game and extra HW is on a single cart that plugs into the expansion port

Mattel Electronics had this very idea to make voice games for coleco vision. By 1983 the GI voice chip was cheap enough that they could put one in every cartridge. In a coleco vision, the audio input was on the expansion port not the cartridge port so the game cartridges would have been made to fit the expansion port. Mattel Electronics soon went out of business before they could release any coleco vision games they were developing under their brand.

 

 

Hmmm... In theory it could work... The thought actually never occurred to me before now.

 

You could put a more advanced graphic chip in this "super cart" that would override the CV's native graphic chip. Same goes for the sound chip, the RAM, and even the CPU. It could override everything the same way as the Expansion Module #1 overrides the regular functionalities of the ColecoVision. But then, you'd need all those components in each and every super cartridge, so it would have been prohibitively expensive BITD. Heck, it would be rather expensive even today, regardless of the coolness factor.

 

EDIT: I do wonder how the Expansion Module #1 tells the ColecoVision to suspend all regular functions, via the expansion port, when the console is first turned on. Does anyone know?

 

EDIT #2: I also have to wonder what kind of limits would be put on this super cartridge because of power supply considerations. I'm not sure, but I think there's only one pin on the expansion port that delivers 5V of power to whatever is plugged into the port. Would 5V be enough to power several chips on a super cartridge in a stable manner?

Back then they knew how to bypass the internal coleco vision nine second startup screen by providing their own startup routine on the cartridge. It did waste valuable rom space at the time. If power is an issue with an expansion peripheral, you could always go with external power. Since the coleco vision had video and audio pin inputs you could literally make an NES or SNES clone expansion module that plugs into the coleco vision expansion port. Bill L. is correct in that developers don't want to make a cartridge for a subset of the user base. Mattel discovered this with their peripherals. In the case of the sega genesis, what if the 32x was 100% cartridge compatible with the Saturn. That's a peripheral that might have worked.

Edited October 30, 2017 by mr_me

[zzip]

You could put a more advanced graphic chip in this "super cart" that would override the CV's native graphic chip. Same goes for the sound chip, the RAM, and even the CPU. It could override everything the same way as the Expansion Module #1 overrides the regular functionalities of the ColecoVision. But then, you'd need all those components in each and every super cartridge, so it would have been prohibitively expensive BITD. Heck, it would be rather expensive even today, regardless of the coolness factor.

It might just be a single component in the cart, like maybe a blitter-type chip for faster block memory moves, making scrolling smoother or better sprites.

[mr_me]

It might just be a single component in the cart, like maybe a blitter-type chip for faster block memory moves, making scrolling smoother or better sprites.

I don't think that is possible. Someone can verify this but I don't think the coleco vision graphics bus was extended to the expansion port. I think you can however put a completely different graphics system on the expansions port. The NES did extend the graphics bus to the cartridge, this allowed it to directly use cartridge rom as graphics on the cartridge rather than copying it to video ram. It also allowed it to extend graphics ram on the cartridge to facilitate diagonal scrolling.

[Pixelboy]

Back then they knew how to bypass the internal coleco vision nine second startup screen by providing their own startup routine on the cartridge. It did waste valuable rom space at the time.

Bypassing the standard ColecoVision title screen at boot is done simply by swapping the first two bytes in the cartridge ROM ("AA55" instead of "55AA", or maybe it's the other way around). Upon reading the inverted bytes, the Coleco BIOS knows that it doesn't have to display the standard title screen (via its own BIOS routine) and instead jumps to the first "real" byte of the software on the cartridge. This feature was originally used by developers for debugging, because waiting 12 seconds each time you wanted to try a new version of a WIP game was an exercise in tediousness. Many third-party developers chose to keep the two bytes inverted, in order to replace the ColecoVision title screen with their own. As for wasting ROM space, defining your own title screen takes way more space on the cart than using Coleco's built-in title screen BIOS routine.

 

This thing about bypassing the title screen is not what I was talking about, by the way. The Expansion Module #1 doesn't even let the Coleco BIOS boot up, it sends some kind of complete override signal via the front expansion port, which allows it to function like an Atari 2600 as soon as the console is turned on. I was just wondering how it's done, at the system architecture level.

 

 

If power is an issue with an expansion peripheral, you could always go with external power. Since the coleco vision had video and audio pin inputs you could literally make an NES or SNES clone expansion module that plugs into the coleco vision expansion port.

Yes, but I was talking about a super cartridge, not an expansion module. Labeling it as a "cartridge" implies that it shouldn't need external power.

[Pixelboy]

It might just be a single component in the cart, like maybe a blitter-type chip for faster block memory moves, making scrolling smoother or better sprites.

But then it would be an expansion module, not a super cartridge like we were discussing earlier. If you're still talking about a super cartridge with actual game software on it together with other support chips, then no, what you're proposing wouldn't work. With the ColecoVision, you either read the software from the cartridge port and use the expansion port for extra hardware (this is how the Super Game Module is used) or you take over the console and replace the native hardware completely. If you completely replace the native hardware, then you have to supply everything: CPU, RAM, graphic chip, sound chip, and also the software ROM. Your super cartridge is in effect a mini-computer, which uses the controller ports and TV RF output of the ColecoVision for its own purposes.

 

EDIT: Um wait, maybe I'm mistaken... Does the Expansion Module #3 contain its own Z80 CPU, or does it use the native CPU of the ColecoVision console?

[mr_me]

The Adam expansion module #3 uses the coleco vision's cpu, graphics, and sound processors.

 

Is there any reason you can't have a rom cartridge with game code and a sound chip (or other processor) together on a cartridge that fits the expansion port? Some expansion chips might work through the cartridge port, it depends what data lines you need.

Edited October 30, 2017 by mr_me

[empsolo]

The Adam expansion module #3 uses the coleco vision's cpu, graphics, and sound processors.

 

Is there any reason you can't have a rom cartridge with game code and a sound chip (or other processor) together on a cartridge that fits the expansion port? Some expansion chips might work through the cartridge ports, it depends what data lines you need.

So basically you are asking if a company can retool production lines to manufacture cartridges for an expansion port that was never really meant to be used in this capacity.

 

Oh no, that isn’t terribly expensive at all.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mr_me]

So basically you are asking if a company can retool production lines to manufacture cartridges for an expansion port that was never really meant to be used in this capacity.

 

Oh no, that isn’t terribly expensive at all.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Correct, it's not expensive.

 

edit: The concern would be the cost of the components, RAM, processors etc.

Edited October 30, 2017 by mr_me

[zzip]

So basically you are asking if a company can retool production lines to manufacture cartridges for an expansion port that was never really meant to be used in this capacity.

 

Oh no, that isn’t terribly expensive at all.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hey it was the 80s. You had companies doing non-standard things like making the 2600 load cassettes, and hardware companies create a deluge of console peripherals (keyboards, trackballs, light-guns, joyboards, mindlinks, steering wheels). It's not beyond the realm of possibility that people would try such an unconventional approach to CV games.

 

a company might do it with startup cash and go out of business if it doesn't succeed, or license the tech to other companies to use-- at which point it becomes part of the conventional process.

[Pixelboy]

Is there any reason you can't have a rom cartridge with game code and a sound chip (or other processor) together on a cartridge that fits the expansion port? Some expansion chips might work through the cartridge port, it depends what data lines you need.

Well, with a regular CV cartridge, the cartridge ROM is mapped to 8000h to FFFFh in the main addressing range. Does the CV's architecture allow this addressing range to be rerouted to read software from a "super cartridge" plugged into the expansion port? That's the real question, and I don't currently know the answer. All I know is that a portion of the addressing range is reserved for the expansion port (it is this range that is turned into RAM by the Super Game Module).

[mr_me]

The expansion port has all the address lines and data lines that the cartridge port has. There are a couple of signal lines on the cartridge port that are not on the expansion port. The Adam typewriter software runs through the expansion port, all Adam software runs through the expansion port.

[Video]

Sure you could do a super cart. Look at Sega vs Nintendo for early 3d. Sega went with a hardware add-on in the 32x while Nintendo went with cart upgrades in fx and fx2 chips onboard carts. They each have advantages and disadvantages, the 32x made carts cheaper, once and done, but probably didn't sell as well as it could. The fx,s were EXPENSIVE (many fx games were $100+) wasn't as powerful, being limited to power it could mooch from the console, but you just bought it and plugged it in, no bulky add-on to buy.

[Geoff Oltmans]

The expansion port has all the address lines and data lines that the cartridge port has. There are a couple of signal lines on the cartridge port that are not on the expansion port. The Adam typewriter software runs through the expansion port, all Adam software runs through the expansion port.

Yeah, the cartridge port would have been a lot more useful for expansion s a la POKEY on a cart or Nintendo MMC3 (a la Super Mario Bros 3) if they had included a !WR, !INT signal and probably audio and video overlay inputs. That would have only added four more signals to the card edge connector.

[mr_me]

Yeah, the cartridge port would have been a lot more useful for expansion s a la POKEY on a cart or Nintendo MMC3 (a la Super Mario Bros 3) if they had included a !WR, !INT signal and probably audio and video overlay inputs. That would have only added four more signals to the card edge connector.

Just use the expansion port. Those pins are all there.

[Geoff Oltmans]

Just use the expansion port. Those pins are all there.

 

Oh, I know you can... from a couple of perspectives that's not ideal: 1. Cost... you have to supply a card edge connector to use it, and the PCB would also cost more. 2. People are used to using the cartridge port, and it's easier for kids to plug in a cartridge vs using the expansion port.

 

Maybe not big things, but I could see how avoiding the expansion port would be beneficial.

[mr_me]

Yes it would be a reverse connector for typical cartridges. But is the cost that significant. If we are talking about cartridges with processors and ram, none of it makes ecomomic sense. It would make sense to have a one time expansion and simpler cartridges. But in the marketplace that failed and expensive cartridges succeeded.

[Geoff Oltmans]

Yes it would be a reverse connector for typical cartridges. But is the cost that significant. If we are talking about cartridges with processors and ram, none of it makes ecomomic sense. It would make sense to have a one time expansion and simpler cartridges. But in the marketplace that failed and expensive cartridges succeeded.

 

Depends on how expensive the expansion components were I guess. For things that can be shared between software, sure, that makes perfect sense. In fact I think that's one of the reasons for the excellent ADAM to exist.

[Geoff Oltmans]

IIRC wasn't there one commercially released game that plugged into the expansion port?

[TPR]

Where would you put "no more physical media?" I feel like a lot of gamers are hanging onto that.

 

Another way to slice and dice -- count up the size of the games.

 

Kilobyte era: anything on a cartridge prior to 16-bit

Megabyte era: SNES, Genesis, even Neo Geo and N64

Hundreds of Megabytes era: CD consoles like Playstation, Saturn (this gets grey, because the actual games are small in most cases, it's just FMV or soundtrack)

Gigabyte era: DVD consoles like PS2, Xbox, Gamecube, Dreamcast, Xbox 360, Wii, Wii U

Tens of GBs era: Blu-Ray consoles like XBone, PS4

 

But then handhelds and mobile and crossovers like Switch don't quite fit. That's because

 

NO ONE CARES

 

This made me legit laugh because it's true!

[NIAD]

IIRC wasn't there one commercially released game that plugged into the expansion port?

No. Only the Add-a-Halt (game pause device), E.M. #1 and E.M. #3 were released for the CV and numerous 3rd Party hardware items were released for the ADAM that use the Expansion Port.

 

You might be thinking of the Practical Peripherals Super Sketch, which plugs into the cartridge port.