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ABBUC Software Competition 2018

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And, the "Jury" acts the same, as musicians on the Atari do: They distract people from doing new stuff.

 

Funny. How do you reflect about your role?

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1. I´m in the same mood like 8BitJunkie and 1NG

2. IMHO the continuing disputes are the result in establishing the repeated rule changes since 2015

 

Maybe I´m wrong, but we hadn´t ANY of these discussions in all compos before 2015. I didn´t remember about any software declined for the compo. But since 2015, the rules are changed every year.

 

We didn´t got MORE or BETTER participants. Specially the hardware area is, regarding the huge amount of good new stuff published outside the ABBUC hardware compo something I called a joke.

 

So my 2 cents: No more jurors for the hardware compo. All software entries are handled using the rules of 2015. And, final: The members vote. DONE.

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Fine with me, but the rule in question exists since 2013 (at least; older rulesets are not available on the website). Recent rule changes (initiated by me for the 2017 and 2018 contests) consisted of the removal of restrictions (such as the limit to stock Atari hardware), not additional restrictions (except for the elimination to vote via e-mail since we have the online portal for that).

You're all welcome to blame me or whomever for applying rules I didn't make, but if you really want things to change, please make concrete, constructive proposals that we can discuss and vote about at the GA. Otherwise nothing will change.

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please make concrete, constructive proposals that we can discuss and vote about at the GA.

 

* no minimum number of participants for a contest section (Game, App, Hardware, Hardware Dev). Contributing to a contest which doesn't take place is more than discouraging. If there are only a few or "sub-standard" (whatever that means) contributions: developer will be lucky. If there are many participants: Abbuc will be lucky.

 

* no absolute gratifications anymore. Gratifications are based on reached (percentual) points. Two advantages:

1.) Every contribution is part of the gratification (the 6th place doesn't hurt so much anymore, as long as an entry gets points, it's part of the prize money)

2.) If there are only "sub-standard" (whatever that means) contributions, they share the budget in more fair way.

Example:

Contribution 'A' got 400 points, 'B' has 390 points, 'C' 320 , 'D' 300 and 'E' only 80. This would result now in 500, 250, 125, 75 and 50 €.

After the change to relative gratifications, the amount would be 268, 262, 215, 201 and 54 € (Points * Total gratification / Total given points).

This would not be IMHO only fairer, reflecting better the work spend with a production, but also allow open the contest for contributions with (only?) improvements.

If the voters spend only very little points to the those entries, this is reflected in the prize.

The burden of the - now more meaningful - distribution of points is up to the members...

 

Former participants are invited to check if they could had live with the new rule based on points...

Edited by Irgendwer
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Maybe we can go back to topic and discuss the games of the contest...

 

Can we have pictures / videos please?

What can we play this fall?

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* no minimum number of participants for a contest section (Game, App, Hardware, Hardware Dev). Contributing to a contest which doesn't take place is more than discouraging. If there are only a few or "sub-standard" (whatever that means) contributions: developer will be lucky. If there are many participants: Abbuc will be lucky.

 

* no absolute gratifications anymore. Gratifications are based on reached (percental) points. Two advantages:

1.) Every contribution is part of the gratification (the 6th place doesn't hurt so much anymore, as long as an entry gets points, it's part of the prize money)

2.) If there are only "sub-standard" (whatever that means) contributions, they share the budget in more fair way.

Example:

Contribution 'A' got 400 points, 'B' has 390 points, 'C' 320 , 'D' 300 and 'E' only 80. This would result now in 500, 250, 125, 75 and 50 €.

After the change to relative gratifications, the amount would be 268, 262, 215, 201 and 54 € (Points * Total gratification / Total given points).

This would not be IMHO only fairer, reflecting better the work spend with a production, but also allow open the contest for contributions with (only?) improvements.

If the voters spend only very little points to the those entries, this is reflected in the prize.

The burden of the, now more meaningful, distribution of points is up to the members...

 

Former participants are invited to check if they could had live with the new rules based on points...

 

sounds good

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@Irgendwer: That sounds like a workable solution. Will take this as a proposal for the GA (can speak for the software contest only). However, with more participants, the awarded amounts might drop significantly compared to the current system. If we take the results from the 2016 contest, it would have meant that the first price would have got 139,23 Euros, the fifth place 96,54 Euros and the 10th place 74,24 Euros. An alternative would be to take your forumla and replace the total given points with the cumulated points given for the first five places (which would result in 242,36 Euros for the first and 168,04 Euros for the fifth price). It probably depends on the question what makes participating in the contest attractive: The prize money (which in this scene is currently relatively high for the winner, even though no one would just do it for that)? The selection quality? The fame?

That's probably something previous participants would have to comment on...

Edited by freetz

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@Irgendwer: That really sounds like a workable solution. Will take this as a proposal for the GA (can speak for the software contest only).

 

It would then also make sense to join the tool and game category again, increasing the total prize for all.

(If "the Abbuc" favors tools or voting on these is weak, points could automatically f.e. doubled to put emphasis on those - question is, if something should be preferred if the member base doesn't really care.)

 

And another revolutionary thought: I even would open the software contest for PC-tools with A8-relation. They are so important to ease the work with or make use of A8 features , that I would like to see some support. Imagine a "RastaConverter" or "FujiConvert" in the contest...

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And another revolutionary thought: I even would open the software contest for PC-tools with A8-relation. They are so important to ease the work with or make use of A8 features , that I would like to see some support. Imagine a "RastaConverter" or "FujiConvert" in the contest...

+1

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It probably depends on the question what makes participating in the contest attractive: The prize money (which in this scene is currently relatively high for the winner, even though no one would just do it for that)? The selection quality? The fame?

That's probably something previous participants would have to comment on...

 

The amounts look a bit more attractive if the two contests (like mentioned) would be joined (Edit: € 200 for the winner, €83 for the last place (tools)).

 

- I see the contest as expression of the Abbuc to support A8 developments. I as a participant was always also interested to have new and good productions for the machine, so if many participants lead to a share of the gratification, I can take comfort in having many (attractive?) new productions for "my beloved machine".

For someone who likes to see the platform supported and not only the personal monetary benefit, this should not be a problem.

 

- I guess also that voting would be a little bit different if it doen't represent a ranking, but a gratification distribution. At least I would had have applied a different voting then, putting my personal value more into the foreground.

Edited by Irgendwer
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Hmmmm,

 

afaik the Abbuc Software contest started in 2004/2005. Back then no real rules existed, just some hints about wishes and similar things. We got 3 programs then: a simple dice game, a picture viewer and a MOD player/converter (Neotracker 1.4). The picture viewer already existed in a similar form and we got big problems to get the Neotracker running, since all programs came without any docs. (Afair, Neotracker did not run as an Autorun.SYS but had to be loaded manually with binary load option "L" in DOS 2.5 or MyDOS, no clue why, we only found out after the contest.) The Software Contest leader (back then Sorin Pascu - RIP!) had no clue what to do with these programs then and asked me for help. Since I also could not get Neotracker running back then and knew a similar pic. viewer existed, we asked Wolfgang what to do. Result: The contest did not take place, all contestants got 50 Euro and that was it...

 

Because of this experience, full rules were setup by me in 2005 or 2006. The rules we have nowadays are more or less still these rules, but expanded and updated several times or to be more precise: At every annual Abbuc meeting a change of the rules was demanded by the audience / the Abbuc members. And so these changes were made. It was not me, nor the software contest leader that made the changes, it were the Abbuc members that demanded and forced the changes of the rules. Complaining now, that the rules changed so many times is a bit ...???... let's say "strange", since many of the german complainers are a) Abbuc members and b) were present at one or more of the annual meetings (and may or may not have demanded the rule changes).

 

Believe it or not, I even was one of the software contest leaders for several years, but just like all others (except Sorin, who died in an accident) I gave up this job, because after a few years it was getting on my nerves to hear or read all these complaints and the Abbuc members that were never ever satisfied, no matter what I or other software contest leaders did. And yes, we did have more rejections of programs and yes, we did have other participants that got disqualified, 8bitjunkie and 1NG are not the first! (I do not remember all disqualifications right now, only "Amauroute 128" upgraded by Jakub Husak and Krzysztof Ziembik, which got disqualified, because a commercial version of Amauroute exists on the A8 and they did not have the written "okay" from the copyright holder.) But in the past rejections and disqualifications of programs never mattered, since there always were enough programs for the contest. But nowadays with less and less programs that enter the contest it is time for a change - and again a strange thing happens:

 

At the german Abbuc forum, several forum members demand that the rules do NOT get changed anymore...?!? If you want a change regarding gratification or acknowledgement, we need to express this in the rules (and therefore change the rules!), if you want to delete section 2.3.1. (that significant changes of a program are required to enter the contest once again), then yes, we need a change of the rules...etc.

 

So, no matter what we did in the past and what we do today, the Abbuc members are simply never (ever) satisfied. Maybe it is better then, to stop the contest and invent all contest money elsewhere...?!? After all, sometimes I am feeling like "just another nervous wreck" (Supertramp). Created the pre-versions of the contest-disks today (4 disksides, with approx. 50% free space), but already know for sure, there will be complaints about them... also created the final version of the Abbuc magazine with the contest programs (as demanded with only 2 disksides, so I had to make compromises) and of course there will be complaints... oh well...

 

We also had several discussions already at the annual Abbuc meeting (JHV) to include or not include PC programs that are made for the A8. Always! Always, the majority of the audience / Abbuc members did NOT want to have such programs to be accepted for the contest. Since some years I visit the annual Abbuc meeting less and less frequently (only every 2 or 3 years), because I am annoyed of these long discussions about rule changes (and whatnot) and when I am there, I often leave the room and talk to someone and/or drink a coffee or a coke and to my surprise I am not the only one who does this. More and more members are leaving the room during the official part or come several hours later, when the official part is already over. Think I will not visit the annual meeting this year, to avoid these discussions and to avoid the many un-satisfied german Abbuc members once more...

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Can we have pictures / videos please?

What can we play this fall?

 

Thanks also to ChariieChaplin's tireless efforts, you have not only pictures/videos, but also the disk versions online four days after the deadline (members only, as usual). Just go to http://asc.abbuc.de and read about the composition of your username and password (maybe you saved it in your browser last year, then you don't have to think about it ;) ) and go to the link on the bottom of the page. Enjoy.

Edited by freetz
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ABBUC still was keeping the original Atari stuff. Other Clubs did the mistake of adding "newer Hardware" resulting in that silly cycle of "we do fast software on fast machines" .

But the Software contest is no part of originality. Also , the rules had been set to give the jury enough free space for own decisions.

To understand the point, people have to be able to recognize the difference between apples and pears.

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A lot information and suggestions. Nice!

 

Simple Questions:

 

1) Is the Abbuc (its members) happy with the situation?

Yes - Everything is fine. Only some devs have a problem they should solve for themselves

No - Something has to be changed. (But do not search for excuses or guilt)

 

2) Is the Abbuc (its members) able and willing to change something?

No - SWC is dead or dying.

Yes - A bright future awaits. (I don't know of course, but there is at least a better chance).

 

Facts are:

- Abbuc tried to optimize the contest for years. That is a good thing and can be done now too

- Actual situation does not look good. Only a few entries and quality could be better

- From developer side of view SWC has some cons. Some do not want to participate SWC in actual form or want to see better terms. (May need asking why?)

- From Abbuc member view there are also demands: They want good software and don't want low quality.

 

- If the contest does not change it would be likely, that there will not be better software over time.

 

In the posts above are some ideas. Just thinking about brought them up.

 

For myself I think, that

- if SWC can not be changed for any reason, then the situation will stand like it is

- If SWC gets less attractive and the Abbuc can not change it, then maybe another contest/thing should be supportet.

- New ideas may work or not. We will see in the future. We don't need to hang people for trying to make thinks better.

 

Remember: The only thing that is constant is change. https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/336994-the-only-thing-that-is-constant-is-change--

Heraclitus https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Heraclitus

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- From developer side of view SWC has some cons. Some do not want to participate SWC in actual form or want to see better terms. (May need asking why?)

 

The current distribution implies that the winner put 10 times the effort into a tile compared to the 5th place and that only half the work went into the second place.

I guess the winner is quite content, while you discourage all others, especially those on places behind the 5th one and those which also tried to follow a high standard. The risk of spending much time into something which just misses the top entry by a few points is too high to care about a participation or aspire to high standards.

 

The hardware contest is even more discouraging. Like said above, if you find yourself in a concurrent situation and miss a good rank you can find comfort in the availability of the "better" production.

But voting a contribution by a jury to the 2nd place and leaving the 1st one empty, a contribution created with a lot of efforts and money spend for prototypes etc. isn't funny and my personal reason why I don't participate anymore and left Abbuc.

Edited by Irgendwer
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Looks like right time to make some popcorn as this is going to be a real nice drama (or comedy?) ;)

 

I think that you can change rules as much as you want but it will not change the numbers and quality of contributions at all (maybe if the prizes will raise like 10x or more). If you look at what games are released each year.. most of them does not participate in ASC and many of them are higher quality too. And look at past years of ASC.. some years were very strong in numbers and in quality.. some are bad in both aspects and the rules are more or less the same.

Edited by MaPa
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Hello guys

 

Look at all the other contests in the world: First place winner gets a fixed price, second place gets another fixed price. Even if they are practically equal in performance:

 

If Tom Dumoulin finishes 1 seconds behind Geraint Thomas after cycling three weeks through half of France, Thomas gets first price, Dumoulin gets second price.

If Michael van Gerwen plays against Gary Anderson and wins 22 to 20, Michael Wins.

If Conchita Wurst gets more points than The Common Lizards, Conchita wins.

If Max Verstappen beats Sebastian Vettel by the thickness of the paint on his front spoiler, Max wins.

 

(OK, I slightly changed the results to make a point!)

 

Not everybody will like that, and some will think that the other should have won, but the number one in the competition gets the honor and the biggest amount of money and the rest gets less. They don't give away gold medals, gold medals with a bit of silver on it, silver medals with a bit of gold on it, etc. It's gold, silver and bronze. Fourth place gets zilch, nothing , nada (or as we say overhere: a free foot trip to Rome). That might not always be fair, but it's clear. And you don't have to come up with formulas to calculate which amount of money everybody gets.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

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Hello guys

 

Second point I want to make:

 

Let me state this first: I have no clue what GetUp! looks like and the same goes for GetUp2!

And let me state this second: The following games are just an example. Everybody knows what they look like, that's why I chose them. Of course I did not and can not enter them into the competition.

 

But when is "a significant change" significant enough for our contest? Let's say I entered a game like PacMan in the competition last year, would I really have to write a game like Donkey Kong this year? And if I entered Donkey Kong last year, could I enter Miner49er this year? The first two are different, the last two at least look the same.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

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Look at all the other contests in the world: First place winner gets a fixed price, second place gets another fixed price. Even if they are practically equal in performance:

 

Do you know the former TV show "Wetten dass..."?

 

That might not always be fair, but it's clear. And you don't have to come up with formulas to calculate which amount of money everybody gets.

 

Then why not just applying "the winner takes it all" as this is even easier...? ;)

Edited by Irgendwer

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Then why not just applying "the winner takes it all" as this is even easier...? ;)

Because there is more than your tiny little world?

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Hello Irgendwer

 

Who doesn't? And yes, there are exceptions, but fixed amounts are easier. "Winner takes all" is too easy.

 

Sincerely

 

Mathy

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Hello guys

 

Second point I want to make:

 

Let me state this first: I have no clue what GetUp! looks like and the same goes for GetUp2!

Sincerely

 

Mathy

 

Well, Get up can be found here: http://a8.fandal.cz/detail.php?files_id=7329

 

And Get up 2 is downloadable from this topic, post #83: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/272415-abbuc-software-competition-2018/page-4?do=findComment&comment=4084652

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I wish that ABBUC would allow software that only runs on upgraded hardware. They are holding back the future of Atari! There are more and more of us that have it. At least:

 

1) make a separate category for U1M, Rapidus, Incognito, etc. only.

2) an absolute rule for ALL entries: NO ILLEGAL OPCODES!

 

That would show the Atari users and members of ABBUC that they are IN TOUCH with the Atari Users.

 

Make Atari Great Again!

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The idea was to inspire... the older rules did that...

in an effort to do this or that it's become less inspired...

 

Running on the original Atari platform always made sense,

New hardware and tools always a part of it.

Adding a other category because of upgrade solutions and speeders is keeping with the spirit of things but should of course take a place at the end of the line.

 

Bottom line

1) we wanted to inspire new software for all Atari's, the most Atari's to enjoy.

2) we wanted to have wonderful new hardware, that would work with most Atari's

3) we wanted to encourage new utilities and tools to create and make all of this and the above.

4) we wanted to encourage support of old as well as new (this created division of people but doesn't have to be, simple rule make version for both! The closer and better the versions are leads to the win. )

 

All or nothing leads to nothing at all sometimes.... best to have a few categories... but we are not encouraging brand new up and comers, new blood coming in to replace legends of old, we don't have many legends left to help teach the new and are sometimes to harsh on new blood... many legends have passed away and knowledge is harder to get and help is harder to get.... Maybe a newbie category or most improved or biggest help category to inspire some excitements without disappointments... please consider to increase entries and user base... this may bring new, and get old to return who have not left world or Atari...

 

In order to get the most entries mostly all needed to get something... the curve might have needed adjustment....

the rules started to kill things....

popularity contest of coders themselves and promotion started to overtake the products.... maybe judged on the final product with names added and revealed after judging. this is blind judgement based on software/hardware/functionality... More the way things were/could be

 

abbuc was inviting and helpful and not so closed to outside world, grace period or guest for a bit.... now it's member only right away it seems, this has kept many away. Of course I am sure I mis understand too much these days... it all is more difficult than needs to be...

Edited by _The Doctor__
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