Keatah Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Many of those updates were "nice to have" but not needed. I only updated 2x or 3x between the first version and final version. At best. In fact, back in the day, it took an "important" issue to get the word out that there was an update. We weren't pestered with every change of code. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SIO2 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 (edited) Well, I always liked cartridges until the Switch. Switch carts kind of change my thinking about carts. For one, the dang things are so small I can't make out what is written on them and any artwork at that scale looses its impact. Also, the little flap thing you have to lift to insert and remove carts bothers me. I can't help thinking how it will eventually break. Plus, the Switch is meant to be portable so, why do I want to carry a bunch of tiny clutter with me? Switch is the first console / handheld / anything that made me realize the utility of digital download. Edited July 14, 2018 by SIO2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Video Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 Yeah, updates and expansions always existed, and so did broken games. Hell, I got one for the 2600 that is impossible to advance beyond the second level. BUT, this was an ultra rare exception, NOT a rule. Modern games are just programmed lazily, and that's all there is to it. But modern games are so much more advanced than old games. Really? How much more advanced are they than just a generation ago? Outside of 4k graphics, I can't really tell much difference. And most of last gens stuff didn't need updates and patches. Especially the early stuff. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman000 Posted July 14, 2018 Share Posted July 14, 2018 More over, they have more tools than in the past. They're not creating games directly in assembly anymore, like on the NES or Game Boy. It's also fairly standard practice to re-use engines. If what I've read is correct the Switch's development system comes with Unity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Updates and expansions have been around sure, but they were handled differently. Usually updates didn't fix something that really broke the game, often they were tweaks or after thought changes/additions but the game worked out of the box on your little floppy or cartridge. Yes you'd get the random garbage, and you'd need an update to download or a quiet 1.1 cart hit the market but it wasn't like a daily or even common thing like now. Sure they were far less complicated, but using that as a crutch and excuse is pretty flimsy too. Much of what Switch has out now works out of the box, there are updates, changes, additional content, but they're not game breaking fixes in general. Those that are seem to get picked on, ridiculed, and the company gets its ass handed to it for the insult like 2K did with NBA and WWE (so badly they scrapped WWE this year too being rats about it.) pacman I think you're right about Unity, but it also has tools for it to handle the latest of nvidia/vulkan engine, unreal, and a few others though like idtech6 that's not included as that's their (iD's) little toy they license out. Switch does end up with reused engines just like the PC and the other consoles, it's how they save money reusing a code base and as many assets as possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 nvidia is a graphics chipset maker vulkan is an api similar to Direct X or OpenGL unreal and unity are engines JFC 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I'm aware of that and why the / was there for nvidia/vulkan. That really wasn't necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) but it also has tools for it to handle the latest of nvidia/vulkan engine nvidia and vulkan are neither engines, that is why it was necessary... cause ya know, words actually mean things Edited July 15, 2018 by Osgeld 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacman000 Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 I was happy to get the clarification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanooki Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 If you say so osgeld, always having to act superior to get attention. So be it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 If you say so osgeld, always having to act superior to get attention. So be it. If you say so Tanooki, always having to whine to get attention. So be it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Ohh dear.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) But modern games are so much more advanced than old games. Really? This really needs explaining? Go watch a credit roll for any modern title, it's going to take you minutes to finish watching. There's dozens if not hundreds of people involved in a modern title's development, a cycle which lasts years now. There's coordination needed between departments, funding management, contractors needed for various services, motion capture units, language teams, PR, the list goes on and on. A 2600 game made in the 80's was like someone putting together a shed in their backyard over a weekend. A modern game is like engineers, planning commissions, construction, all coming together and building a new urban development over the course of years. They're not remotely comparable, other then the end result is on a TV screen. Edited July 15, 2018 by keepdreamin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Yes and no. It used to be my only option to use my hundreds of Atari carts but today I can use my Harmony Cart with all the games and getting them through digital download. I wouldn't want to go back to before that or wait for a new cartridge based system to get a flash cart like that 30 years from now. So, my vote would be for a new cartridge based system that is already like that from the get go with just one cart that I buy ROM's for with no DRM. I would want it to be a cart instead of an internal hard drive because I'm just as concerned about a console breaking as servers going down. I just want a cart I can quickly pull out and install into another console to get all my games in seconds. To me it doesn't get much more of a sense of ownership and preservation as that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Well, you're in luck, removeable media is cheaper and more capacious than ever, and it's supported by the big consoles and just about every computer operating system in the last 20 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted July 15, 2018 Share Posted July 15, 2018 Many of those updates were "nice to have" but not needed. I only updated 2x or 3x between the first version and final version. At best. In fact, back in the day, it took an "important" issue to get the word out that there was an update. We weren't pestered with every change of code. Yes, a lot of DOOM's updates weren't necessary for some users, but the game was far from perfect and patches had to be dished out. The point is, people in this thread want to believe like games in the past have never needed updates, but this can't be farther from the truth. This really needs explaining? Go watch a credit roll for any modern title, it's going to take you minutes to finish watching. There's dozens if not hundreds of people involved in a modern title's development, a cycle which lasts years now. There's coordination needed between departments, funding management, contractors needed for various services, motion capture units, language teams, PR, the list goes on and on. A 2600 game made in the 80's was like someone putting together a shed in their backyard over a weekend. A modern game is like engineers, planning commissions, construction, all coming together and building a new urban development over the course of years. They're not remotely comparable, other then the end result is on a TV screen. I don't think it can be said any better than this, honestly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I don't think it can be said any better than this, honestly. yea but even by the the time Nintendo invented video games with the release of the Famicom / NES the credits to games were already in the "team" range Mario Brothers has 3 people listed on wikipedia, and I am sure they had a helper or two bouncing around Super Mario Brothers has 5 people listed on wikipedia, and I am sure they had a helper or two bouncing around Super Mario has 7 people listed on wikipedia, and I am sure they had a helper or two bouncing around The lone man making the next hot potato was even kind of rare in pre-crash systems, sure it happened but most games were done by companies, where even if one guy had to make a game there's a team around him making toolsets, and assets, maybe even helping with code and concept ... not to mention marketing, art, and money to provide them the absolute state of the art gear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Austin Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 yea but even by the the time Nintendo invented video games with the release of the Famicom / NES the credits to games were already in the "team" range Mario Brothers has 3 people listed on wikipedia, and I am sure they had a helper or two bouncing around Super Mario Brothers has 5 people listed on wikipedia, and I am sure they had a helper or two bouncing around Super Mario has 7 people listed on wikipedia, and I am sure they had a helper or two bouncing around The lone man making the next hot potato was even kind of rare in pre-crash systems, sure it happened but most games were done by companies, where even if one guy had to make a game there's a team around him making toolsets, and assets, maybe even helping with code and concept ... not to mention marketing, art, and money to provide them the absolute state of the art gear I don't think anyone is denying that many games from prior generations required teams. The point was to counter the notion that modern games are just as simple as the games of old, and that the developers are simply "lazy" when the reality has little to do with that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osgeld Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) I don't think anyone is denying that many games from prior generations required teams. The point was to counter the notion that modern games are just as simple as the games of old, and that the developers are simply "lazy" when the reality has little to do with that. no I think the original point was that modern developers are lazy cause some magical unicorn farts out a engine that solves all problems, thus making a bug free game should be as easy as making ET, eventhough the complexity of the games today branch further than a half page of if statements and a 2d map array oh wait ET had some bugs didnt it Edited July 16, 2018 by Osgeld 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keepdreamin Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 The lone man making the next hot potato was even kind of rare in pre-crash systems, sure it happened but most games were done by companies, where even if one guy had to make a game there's a team around him making toolsets, and assets, maybe even helping with code and concept ... not to mention marketing, art, and money to provide them the absolute state of the art gear I thought I remember reading that in the 2600 days the interns' primary job was to run down to the corner and pick up some green herbal inspiration for the coders. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schizophretard Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Well, you're in luck, removeable media is cheaper and more capacious than ever, and it's supported by the big consoles and just about every computer operating system in the last 20 years. Are the games put on this removable media for the big consoles so DRM free that I could potentially find complete ROM sets of all of them just like the Harmony Cart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Dwarf Fortress and Rimworld are mostly coded by one person. These - to me - are two of the most advanced games I know of at the moment, on any platform. Of course it all depends on what yardstick you will use for your definition of "advanced" and what purpose it's supposed to serve. From the pure gameplay point of view The Witcher 3 is not at all more advanced than some Goldbox or Ultima game. The latest Doom is about on par with the original and the latest Deus Ex is actually a regress, nearly 2 decades later. Fancy that Sure, if the amount of polygons, voice actors or product placement assets is important to whatever it is that your argument entails, then by all means, use the credits list as a measurement. In other cases, you may ponder the fact that games such as Final Fantasy, 3D Zelda, Pools Of Radiance, Ultima Underworld, Mario 3D, Civilisation, Pirates!, Quake, X Com or System Shock were about as complex & advanced as you can get at the time and yet did not require constant stream of updates & patches to whip them into a playable shape. Might have something to do with broadband and the convenience of everybody being already conditioned for the inevitable xGB day-one patch. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flojomojo Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Spoken like a true retrogamer, youxia. I often tell myself that Nethack is really the only game I really "need," but like most other people, I like pretty graphics and sound, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youxia Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Well, I always was a gfx whoar thru & thru too, from drooling over Amiga intros to spending unhealthy amount of time ENB-ing Skyrim and such. This was just to say that a game's complexity should not perhaps be always measured by the amount of people who have worked on it or other such curious factors. It's a rather, ahem, complex issue. And the fact that game companies take liberties these days and release unfinished products becuase there's always day-one, enchanced edition or director's cut is a rather obvious fact of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlaysWithWolves Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Dwarf Fortress and Rimworld are mostly coded by one person. These - to me - are two of the most advanced games I know of at the moment, on any platform. Just remember that Rimworld's in early access and has tens of thousands of players paying for the privilege to beta test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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