CollectorVision Phoenix Kickstarter is now live!

[SegaSnatcher]

I think it was a big missed opportunity to not have the board fit in an original ColecoVision case. It seems like the perfect solution to people who have non-working units who don't want to troubleshoot and figure out what is the problem. It is also a solution to injection molding a new case, which is expensive. it would be a great selling feature to tell people to save the original ColecoVision board in the Phoenix box so they could switch it back if they ever wanted.

 

They said they didn't do this because the new cases would be really expensive because they would have to be the size of original ColecoVision cases, but that is not true. They could easily design a small case for the board. They just wanted the new case to look nice with the controller ports in the front, and all the other ports nice and neat in the back. Any new case that would be board compatible with original cases would not look as nice and clean.

But you'd have to cut out plastic for the HDMI out and what about all those people who don't already have a Colecovision laying around their house? Colecovision systems aren't exactly cheap these days.

[The Evener]

Not to mention the SD Card slot, the keyboard, SNES connector as well. For the adventurous, you can take the existing Phoenix board and rig up something with an original ColecoVision case.

Edited October 23, 2018 by The Evener

[retroillucid]

 

 

They said they didn't do this because the new cases would be really expensive because they would have to be the size of original ColecoVision cases, but that is not true. They could easily design a small case for the board. They just wanted the new case to look nice with the controller ports in the front, and all the other ports nice and neat in the back. Any new case that would be board compatible with original cases would not look as nice and clean.

 

You're talking like you know everything happening behind the scene ..... O_o

 

The first plan was to make a replacement board for the original CV AND do a new injection mold of the original CV console

[NIAD]

Seems like the best bet would be to suspend it and restart it down the road. No drama, no hate, just an opinion. And an idea.

Considering that people have associated the CollectorVision Phoenix incorrectly with Coleco Holdings LLC., Kennedy, Cardillo and the Coleco Chameleon, it is BEST to let this Kickstarter run it's coarse.

 

I have a feeling that as the end of the Kickstarter nears, we will be seeing a huge uptick in the "$300 Early Access Level" and the "$65 Sydney Hunter CoD CIB Level".

[Great Hierophant]

Considering that people have associated the CollectorVision Phoenix incorrectly with Coleco Holdings LLC., Kennedy, Cardillo and the Coleco Chameleon, it is BEST to let this Kickstarter run to it's coarse hearse.

 

I couldn't resist touching that statement up.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Great Hierophant

[ColecoJoe]

I wouldn't mind a 3d case.

[TPR]

I find it interesting how some people say they won't fund it until it checks some boxes to meet their personal preferences while at the same time forgetting that this is an open source console and many of those boxes could be checked during the lifespan of the console if there is a actual real demand for it.

 

Of all the comments that have been made over the past many pages, something Luc said sticks out to me the most...

 

The point I'm trying to make is that keeping the 200$ pricetag target is doable, but only over an extended period of time, to give all the potential buyers time to discover the product and make it available to them when they're ready to buy it.

 

I personally agree this is the biggest challenge with the Kickstarter. I don't actually believe there is anything wrong with the current feature set of the console, the price tag on the console, the money that CollectorVision is looking to fund, those things are all fine and I wouldn't suggest changing a thing.

 

The biggest challenge is the limited time in which Kickstarter gives to find those people interested in the system. The Kickstarter campaign has managed to sell an average of 18 systems a day. That's not including the 40-something systems Brian sold during the early access campaign on his website. It's a shame that you can't do a 60 or 75 day Kickstarter because I actually think this thing would fund in that amount of time. At 18 systems a day, in about 60 - 70 days, CollectorVision would fund this project. That's not an unrealistic pre-sale window period for niche homebrew hardware projects like this.

 

My professional advice to CollectorVision if the Kickstarter does not make it would be to crowd fund using a method that allows for a longer lead time to collect funding. Either a traditional pre-order window, maybe IndieGogo, etc. Only spend development time or money on improving/fixing current features or adding features that make sense for the console, not necessarily checking boxes to satisfy specific individuals who may or may not buy the console.

 

I truly believe there is an audience for this console. The volume of sales for the SGM, the level of interest we've seen on the Facebook pages and on this forum show that people are still interested in ColecoVision. I just think it might be a little too niche for the required amount of people to be able to fund it in a Kickstarter amount of time.

 

Thankfully, there WILL be a "Plan B" and this console will find its audience. And I do thank CollectorVision for being persistent in making sure this console gets a release.

[NIAD]

Considering that people have associated the CollectorVision Phoenix incorrectly with Coleco Holdings LLC., Kennedy, Cardillo and the Coleco Chameleon, it is BEST to let this Kickstarter run it's coarse.

 

 

Considering that people have associated the CollectorVision Phoenix incorrectly with Coleco Holdings LLC., Kennedy, Cardillo and the Coleco Chameleon, it is BEST to let this Kickstarter run to it's coarse hearse.

 

 

 

I couldn't resist touching that statement up.

 

 

Hey, why don't you go back to playing your NES !

[+wongojack]

I'm a fence sitter and it may stay that way unless I can sell something else gaming related first. We are doing some home renos soon and extraneous spending is off the table for a while yet. If I had the cash I'd have already pledged. That's a fact.

 

Can the kickstarter be extended if it doesn't make the one month goal? I admit I don't know exactly how they work.

 

Are you selling anything worth $200? I could maybe help you make this decision.

[+wongojack]

any chance of adding paypal as a payment option, as that is currently the only thing holding me back from backing

I believe this is determined by kickstarter and credit card is the only option. Right?

[Pixelboy]

I find it interesting how some people say they won't fund it until it checks some boxes to meet their personal preferences while at the same time forgetting that this is an open source console and many of those boxes could be checked during the lifespan of the console if there is a actual real demand for it.

 

Of all the comments that have been made over the past many pages, something Luc said sticks out to me the most...

 

 

I personally agree this is the biggest challenge with the Kickstarter. I don't actually believe there is anything wrong with the current feature set of the console, the price tag on the console, the money that CollectorVision is looking to fund, those things are all fine and I wouldn't suggest changing a thing.

 

The biggest challenge is the limited time in which Kickstarter gives to find those people interested in the system. The Kickstarter campaign has managed to sell an average of 18 systems a day. That's not including the 40-something systems Brian sold during the early access campaign on his website. It's a shame that you can't do a 60 or 75 day Kickstarter because I actually think this thing would fund in that amount of time. At 18 systems a day, in about 60 - 70 days, CollectorVision would fund this project. That's not an unrealistic pre-sale window period for niche homebrew hardware projects like this.

 

My professional advice to CollectorVision if the Kickstarter does not make it would be to crowd fund using a method that allows for a longer lead time to collect funding. Either a traditional pre-order window, maybe IndieGogo, etc. Only spend development time or money on improving/fixing current features or adding features that make sense for the console, not necessarily checking boxes to satisfy specific individuals who may or may not buy the console.

 

I truly believe there is an audience for this console. The volume of sales for the SGM, the level of interest we've seen on the Facebook pages and on this forum show that people are still interested in ColecoVision. I just think it might be a little too niche for the required amount of people to be able to fund it in a Kickstarter amount of time.

 

Thankfully, there WILL be a "Plan B" and this console will find its audience. And I do thank CollectorVision for being persistent in making sure this console gets a release.

Well, if you really want to have this discussion now instead of after November 7th, alright then, here we go:

 

I disagree that this Kickstarter would ever reach its target of 230K$, no matter how long you would let it run. With a two-month campaign, it would likely level off at 100K$ maximum and stay there. The ColecoVision is a great system, but it cannot compete with Nintendo and Sega consoles in the public's eye (like the Analogue Mega SG which is now in its pre-order phase, rotten timing for the Phoenix Kickstarter, and there's also the PlayStation Mini coming in early December). The market is not big enough to support a modern CV of this form, AtGames learned this the hard way with their ColecoVision Flashback, and now we're seeing it again with the Phoenix.

 

We need to take a reality pill here: The FPGA ColecoVision is here, it's available, it's great, but if ColecoVision fans want it, they're going to have to dig deep in their pockets to get it. It's as simple as that. This is destined to remain a niche product, and will sell in modest numbers.

 

The silver lining around this cloud is that with a niche product such as the Phoenix, you can use unorthodox methods for reaching your sales goals. For example, sell the bare motherboard, and sell the casing separately, as part of a separate parallel project. It's not an ideal way of doing things, but considering the 150$ pricetag of the bare board, buyers could appreciate being able to purchase the casing+screws a few months later.

 

There's also the possibility of returning to the original plan of making the board fit in an original ColecoVision console enclosure, but the drawback here lies with the cables: In order to avoid having to systematically drill holes in the console casing (yuk!) you'd need to use the RF cable opening for the new power plug, and the power connector opening for the HDMI connector. This implies that an L-shape HDMI connector would need to be used, which is a complicated proposition (locking the connector in place inside the casing somehow, short length of cord between the connector and the motherboard, etc.).

 

Another possibility is using a generic enclosure from a supplier like polycase.com (I like their AG-85, ZN-40 and ZN-45 enclosures) but aside from having to redesign the motherboard to fit in such casings, there's also the issue of cutting holes: Polycase can cut any required holes with high precision, but the actual cut is a little "raw", which is fine for a prototype, but a little rough-looking for a commercial product. Polycase's hole cutting service is also somewhat pricey, but it's still much cheaper than making a new injection mold to produce a custom casing.

 

I'm sure there are a few other options I'm not thinking of right now. But whatever approach is selected, it will likely be a bit expensive for the end customer.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Pixelboy

[TPR]

We need to take a reality pill here: The FPGA ColecoVision is here, it's available, it's great, but if ColecoVision fans want it, they're going to have to dig deep in their pockets to get it. It's as simple as that. This is destined to remain a niche product, and will sell in modest numbers.

 

I would be perfectly happy with my $299 "Early Access" system even if it comes in a 3D printed case. Would I prefer injection molded and would I prefer to see CollectorVision be able to release it at $199? You bet! But if the reality pill ends up being $299 + 3D Printed Case = ColecoVision FPGA system... I can swallow that pill.

[Pixelboy]

I would be perfectly happy with my $299 "Early Access" system even if it comes in a 3D printed case. Would I prefer injection molded and would I prefer to see CollectorVision be able to release it at $199? You bet! But if the reality pill ends up being $299 + 3D Printed Case = ColecoVision FPGA system... I can swallow that pill.

A 3D-printed case would do, I suppose, but I would like to see CollectorVision investigate the polycase.com option, at the very least.

[retroillucid]

The Phoenix will not just fade away because the Kickstarter is not successful

This is only the beginning actually, we'll come up with a solution

[AtariLeaf]

 

Are you selling anything worth $200? I could maybe help you make this decision.

 

The only thing worth close to that amount that I'm willing to part with is my PS4 VR and so far I'm getting lowballed locally, badly. Sometimes I don't know why I bother with the local buy/sell sites. Waste of time mostly.

[youki]

Another possibility is using a generic enclosure from a supplier like polycase.com (I like their AG-85, ZN-40 and ZN-45 enclosures) but aside from having to redesign the motherboard to fit in such casings, there's also the issue of cutting holes: Polycase can cut any required holes with high precision, but the actual cut is a little "raw", which is fine for a prototype, but a little rough-looking for a commercial product. Polycase's hole cutting service is also somewhat pricey, but it's still much cheaper than making a new injection mold to produce a custom casing.

 

I'm sure there are a few other options I'm not thinking of right now. But whatever approach is selected, it will likely be a bit expensive for the end customer.

 

Very interesting, i wonder if we could not use that for the HB Vision also.

[insertclevernamehere]

Anyone who may be holding out for the Opcode alternative needs to read this below, copied and pasted from their Omni thread. It's from Opcode themselves.

 

"As for ColecoVision compatible, quite frankly, do you see how many Cv compatible consoles are in the works? And how the first one isnt exactly selling like hot cakes? While we still have a couple of hardware projects in the works for the CV, creating a console at this point, with all the investment it requires, may sound a little risky. That is something we havent made a final decision yet, for now we just agreed on delaying it until late next year, but to be honest, it looks more unlikely each day. I missed the proper window of opportunity, and that was years ago".

 

So it looks like the funding of the Phoenix Kickstarter has just become that little bit more important. If the funding fails and a plan b needs to be started, my suggestion, as someone else has mentioned is to not just focus on the Colecovision. Perhaps not evey pre crash system because I presume the more you do, the more costly and time consuming it is, but at least the most popular one, the 2600. I think if the Phoenix had an Atari 2600 core that 100% reliably played all original run games and homebrews as well as it plays Colecovision and SGM games, with a cartridge adapter too, not just ROMS, CollectorVision would be onto a real winner. I know an Atari 2600 core has been added but others have suggested it may not necessarily be 100% compatible, especially with homebrews. If you can guarantee 100% compatibility and it be very much a part of the marketing from the beginning, the Phoenix would have no problem getting funding.

Edited October 24, 2018 by insertclevernamehere

[+eebuckeye]

I think for "just" a Colecovision 100% compatible system, SD support, SGM, F18A and many homebrew games built in the system is truly an incredible value already. If someone is not a pure Coleco fan and does not understand all the additions then I guess they could question. I'm extremely happy with the feature set already which more than justifies $200. It is really an incredible deal for a Coleco fan. The question is just if there are enough people who understand what it truly offers.

[NIAD]

insertclevenamehere... the goal of including cores that are 100% compatible is a helluva task in and of itself. Everyone hopes for it and the developer strives for it, but the only way to 100% achieve this goal would mean to spend countless years beta testing the cores with every game ever made for that particular system. Maybe before 100s of Homebrews were released for the CV since 1996, it would have been possible to test the 140 or so legacy CV games, but now that is near impossible. Testing fully all the 2600 games ever released could be a decades long endeavor. So I guess what I am trying to say is to strive for the best compatibility, but make the system upgradeable thru firmware updates as the Phoenix will be.

 

Heck, a big company like Coleco had to release a cartridge extended for the Exp. Mod. #1 in order for some of the 2600 games to be compatible. On top of that, look how long it took for some of the best emulators like Stella to work oit all the kinks re compatibility.

[Pixelboy]

insertclevenamehere... the goal of including cores that are 100% compatible is a helluva task in and of itself. Everyone hopes for it and the developer strives for it, but the only way to 100% achieve this goal would mean to spend countless years beta testing the cores with every game ever made for that particular system. Maybe before 100s of Homebrews were released for the CV since 1996, it would have been possible to test the 140 or so legacy CV games, but now that is near impossible. Testing fully all the 2600 games ever released could be a decades long endeavor. So I guess what I am trying to say is to strive for the best compatibility, but make the system upgradeable thru firmware updates as the Phoenix will be.

Very true. Perfect FPGA cores don't just happen, and even Kevtris himself had to issue core revisions (in the NT Mini and Super NT) to deal with some minor problems that were being reported by users. The question is, at this point, is what level of commitment can be expected from the CollectorVision team regarding core updates. I wouldn't simply assume from the get-go that they will be perfectionists (like Kevtris is regarding his own cores). They may go out of their way to make sure all ColecoVision ROMs function properly (the savegame feature in The Black Onyx could be an issue, for example) but are they prepared to support all the quirks of Atari 2600 ROMs in the long term, especially on the homebrew side? Collectively, we should recognize that these guys are only human and we shouldn't hold the bar up too high. The Phoenix is a modern ColecoVision, first and foremost. The rest is gravy.

[insertclevernamehere]

Apologies for my unfeasible suggestion. I'm not a technical person and had no idea it would be so much work. It was just a suggestion to help make it reach their funding goal if it fails first time around. I'm already sold on it as is and am a backer.

[Swami]

8bit4ever is selling an MSX2+ FPGA clone called the SX-1 that I think is fairly similar in style to the Phoenix when what is included/not included is considered, with the big "except" that they are just using a public domain core, rather than one developed in-house. I'm sure MSX is even more niche than ColecoVision. They've done runs of a couple other FPGA boards in the past and what they're doing for pre-release is selling just the fully populated board with VGA/RGB/composite and a 3D printed back plate for housing it in a PC case you go find yourself for about $195 shipped. They're selling small batches now, maybe four batches of 10 since summer and plan an official release in January. Anyone know what their official release plans and expectations are? It might provide some perspective.

[Swami]

insertclevenamehere... the goal of including cores that are 100% compatible is a helluva task in and of itself. Everyone hopes for it and the developer strives for it, but the only way to 100% achieve this goal would mean to spend countless years beta testing the cores with every game ever made for that particular system. Maybe before 100s of Homebrews were released for the CV since 1996, it would have been possible to test the 140 or so legacy CV games, but now that is near impossible. Testing fully all the 2600 games ever released could be a decades long endeavor. So I guess what I am trying to say is to strive for the best compatibility, but make the system upgradeable thru firmware updates as the Phoenix will be.

 

Heck, a big company like Coleco had to release a cartridge extended for the Exp. Mod. #1 in order for some of the 2600 games to be compatible. On top of that, look how long it took for some of the best emulators like Stella to work oit all the kinks re compatibility.

I was curious about one thing here. CollectorVision said this is 100% compatible with the approximately 350 games out there. When did the testing of the prototype for compatibility begin? 2014?

[digress]

I would suggest another kick starter or direct sales for the motherboard or a diy kit. Make the 3d print files available for free if someone wants to attempt their own case. Make the options absolute bare bones. Board, Board+power adapter but not much else.

 

After a while and you get an install base of 100+ units then do a kickstarter or direct sales for a injection molded case. Now you have a motivated base of people to buy the molded case. If people are less interested in the mold case than the board separating the campaigns one may success even if both don't.

 

+1 add an exclusive title that only works with the keyboard. Lesuire Suit Lanny or Zork.

 

possible different alt layout of the board as a version to drop in replace in the current coleco shell.

 

I am currently a backer & will back whatever version you do.

Edited October 24, 2018 by digress

[NIAD]

I was curious about one thing here. CollectorVision said this is 100% compatible with the approximately 350 games out there. When did the testing of the prototype for compatibility begin? 2014?

As you can see from Brian's very detailed evolution of the Phoenix over the past couple years on the Kickstarter page, there has been time to test all the CV games (legacy and homebrew), but to what extent I can not answer.

 

The important thing to consider is at the heart of it, the Phoenix is a new CV compatible system made by hardcore CV fans for CV fans. Knowing the people behind the scenes as I do , I have complete faith in their dedication to making the CV core 100% compatible or as close as possible to that magic number. I also have complete faith that if any compatibility issues do arise, the right people are in place to address them and provide fixes/updates.

 

As far as other cores like the 2600 and MSX, I can not attest to especially with considering the large libraries of warez for those systems, but again I believe 100% in the developers and their dedication to the Phoenix.

 

Whatever transpires with the Kickstarter, I will be purchasing one or more Phoenixes. I hope it's the Kickstarter version, but will be perfectly content with the "Early Access" version. Considering everything you get with the system, we are talking about a $600 value if you place a $50 value on the Sydney Hunter CoD game and roughly $10 each for the included rom images of 10 outstanding CV Homebrews.

 

2600 comptibility is just the icing on an already delicious cake. Additional cores and expansion modules made available in the future would be the cherries on top.

 

I honestly have not looked at or compared other FPGA systems and honestly do not care to because the Phoenix in it's announced configuration is the "cat's meow" to me!