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CollectorVision Phoenix Kickstarter is now live!

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Perhaps with Plan B two cartridge slots can be provided. One for MSX and one for CV.

 

That would require completely re-designing the board and the casing, not to mention the additional programing for the front end, cores, etc... Not a simple task by any means.

 

At this point, the last thing I want to do is pile on more work for these guys and more new features will only raise the cost of the console and add more time before it is released. I think "Plan B" would be best just being what is currently offered on Kickstarter, but under the same conditions of a normal homebrew pre-order, and if there is anything additional to be added, it can come later. That's just my two cents.

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That would require completely re-designing the board and the casing, not to mention the additional programing for the front end, cores, etc... Not a simple task by any means.

 

At this point, the last thing I want to do is pile on more work for these guys and more new features will only raise the cost of the console and add more time before it is released. I think "Plan B" would be best just being what is currently offered on Kickstarter, but under the same conditions of a normal homebrew pre-order, and if there is anything additional to be added, it can come later. That's just my two cents.

Yes! Everybody seems to want the kitchen sink in this thing. I'll be happy with the product as is.

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I feel the same. It's more than good enough as-is, and anything additional can be offered later on.

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There's 100+ more other features we could add ...
But that would make it a pipe dream console then

I'm already happy with what we've done here
I think people are going to love their Phoenix console



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Yes! Everybody seems to want the kitchen sink in this thing. I'll be happy with the product as is.

 

I think Phoenix should stay true to its roots and do Colecovision to the best of its abilities.

 

If you want FPGA + The Kitchen Sink, then get a MiSTer or De10 or whatever is popular among the open source gang and go from there. Or build-up a universal emulation featuring MAME and your favorite system-specific emulators. That's what I did.

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Perhaps with Plan B two cartridge slots can be provided. One for MSX and one for CV.

 

Funny you mention that, but the MSX computers often came with two cartridge ports, or could turn a single cartridge port into multiple ports with a hardware expander device. Konami made a pair of cheat cartridges for its games called the "Game Master". You inserted the game cartridge you wanted to cheat with in the second slot and the Game Master cartridge in the first slot.

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HDMI? WHY? Some these games require pinpoint timing and need a CRT TV. Imagine playing a "second cycle" round of Lady Bug with some ping. It's possible on the lower levels with patience to beat that level on a CRT TV. Imagine if there was a 33 ms delay like the best TV at the time, the Playtstation 3D Display. I understand the HDMI technology doesn't add ping by its very existence, but it's just that all the TVs that accept HDMI technology use a TV display technology that is not low ping. And I'm not asking for sub-microsecond Light Gun ping for anything except light gun games, which Coleco doesn't have, but Composite outputs would be good for basic CRT TVs and S-Video and Component for more premium ones. Until they attach an HDMI connection to a CRT TV, and it can properly do both 4x3 and 16x9 modes, you should have an alternative.

 

I've heard of something called an HDMI CRT Adapter which takes an HDMI signal and converts it to component and composite with no delay. Besides, some TVs can't do 240p natively without a conversion process which increases ping which kills the whole point of playing these games.

 

Eve if I have a low Ping HDMI TV, unless it's both low ping enough for light gun games, and in 3D, I'll need 3 tcs downlstairs, one for 3D movies, one for light gun games,a and one for the rest. I already have 2. A 3D 240p/480i->2160p CRTTV would be the solution. I believe a 24 inch 16x9 screen is smaller than a 4x3 one of the same diagonal. So why not a 24 inch 4k CRT 3D TV, that can go down to 240p for old school games and have the Segascope 3D work too..

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HDMI? WHY? Some these games require pinpoint timing and need a CRT TV. Imagine playing a "second cycle" round of Lady Bug with some ping. It's possible on the lower levels with patience to beat that level on a CRT TV. Imagine if there was a 33 ms delay like the best TV at the time, the Playtstation 3D Display. I understand the HDMI technology doesn't add ping by its very existence, but it's just that all the TVs that accept HDMI technology use a TV display technology that is not low ping. And I'm not asking for sub-microsecond Light Gun ping for anything except light gun games, which Coleco doesn't have, but Composite outputs would be good for basic CRT TVs and S-Video and Component for more premium ones. Until they attach an HDMI connection to a CRT TV, and it can properly do both 4x3 and 16x9 modes, you should have an alternative.

 

I've heard of something called an HDMI CRT Adapter which takes an HDMI signal and converts it to component and composite with no delay. Besides, some TVs can't do 240p natively without a conversion process which increases ping which kills the whole point of playing these games.

 

Eve if I have a low Ping HDMI TV, unless it's both low ping enough for light gun games, and in 3D, I'll need 3 tcs downlstairs, one for 3D movies, one for light gun games,a and one for the rest. I already have 2. A 3D 240p/480i->2160p CRTTV would be the solution. I believe a 24 inch 16x9 screen is smaller than a 4x3 one of the same diagonal. So why not a 24 inch 4k CRT 3D TV, that can go down to 240p for old school games and have the Segascope 3D work too..

post-53348-0-96006200-1541464588_thumb.jpeg

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HDMI? WHY? Some these games require pinpoint timing and need a CRT TV. Imagine playing a "second cycle" round of Lady Bug with some ping. It's possible on the lower levels with patience to beat that level on a CRT TV. Imagine if there was a 33 ms delay like the best TV at the time, the Playtstation 3D Display. I understand the HDMI technology doesn't add ping by its very existence, but it's just that all the TVs that accept HDMI technology use a TV display technology that is not low ping. And I'm not asking for sub-microsecond Light Gun ping for anything except light gun games, which Coleco doesn't have, but Composite outputs would be good for basic CRT TVs and S-Video and Component for more premium ones. Until they attach an HDMI connection to a CRT TV, and it can properly do both 4x3 and 16x9 modes, you should have an alternative.

 

I've heard of something called an HDMI CRT Adapter which takes an HDMI signal and converts it to component and composite with no delay. Besides, some TVs can't do 240p natively without a conversion process which increases ping which kills the whole point of playing these games.

 

Eve if I have a low Ping HDMI TV, unless it's both low ping enough for light gun games, and in 3D, I'll need 3 tcs downlstairs, one for 3D movies, one for light gun games,a and one for the rest. I already have 2. A 3D 240p/480i->2160p CRTTV would be the solution. I believe a 24 inch 16x9 screen is smaller than a 4x3 one of the same diagonal. So why not a 24 inch 4k CRT 3D TV, that can go down to 240p for old school games and have the Segascope 3D work too..

 

 

I know I can adapt it with a HDMI->Composite monitor, but unfortunately, i tried to look at the youtube frame-by-frame playback, but pressing the left and right arrow advances 5 seconds, not one frame. Youtube doesn't have "frame-by-frame" advance. If the joystick/ button press is ahead of the move/jump, then my point is proven. I can display it, but until I see a frame by frame ping test, I'm not convinced that this will work as intended.

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I know I can adapt it with a HDMI->Composite monitor, but unfortunately, i tried to look at the youtube frame-by-frame playback, but pressing the left and right arrow advances 5 seconds, not one frame. Youtube doesn't have "frame-by-frame" advance. If the joystick/ button press is ahead of the move/jump, then my point is proven. I can display it, but until I see a frame by frame ping test, I'm not convinced that this will work as intended.

 

I think you need an original ColecoVision.

/although I don't see why the Phoenix would be much slower.

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I know I can adapt it with a HDMI->Composite monitor, but unfortunately, i tried to look at the youtube frame-by-frame playback, but pressing the left and right arrow advances 5 seconds, not one frame. Youtube doesn't have "frame-by-frame" advance. If the joystick/ button press is ahead of the move/jump, then my point is proven. I can display it, but until I see a frame by frame ping test, I'm not convinced that this will work as intended.

 

I would love to know the metric of "People who didn't or won't back the CollectorVision Phoenix Kickstarter because they are worried about playing a round of Lady Bug with the most minor amount, if any at all, ping." I'm going to bet that number will be very low.

 

Seriously, I've been playing the crap out of the CollectorVision Phoenix since I got the prototype and I can't even tell the difference from playing my F18a modded console. Anyone who is going "frame by frame" looking at videos for reasons to dish on this console is doing life wrong.

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Geez, I guess there's a complaint for anything and everything. While I totally understand the niche of a niche who covet the relative precision of a CRT over HDMI and still somehow have the reflexes to notice the difference, I'm glad products like this remain forward-thinking and take into consideration the needs of the larger market. As was stated and has been stated, should you need something the original offers, the original still exists. If you're that committed to pure CRT play, then you're no doubt that committed to maintaining (or modding as necessary) the original systems.

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I would love to know the metric of "People who didn't or won't back the CollectorVision Phoenix Kickstarter because they are worried about playing a round of Lady Bug with the most minor amount, if any at all, ping." I'm going to bet that number will be very low.

 

Seriously, I've been playing the crap out of the CollectorVision Phoenix since I got the prototype and I can't even tell the difference from playing my F18a modded console. Anyone who is going "frame by frame" looking at videos for reasons to dish on this console is doing life wrong.

 

:D

 

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HDMI? WHY? Some these games require pinpoint timing and need a CRT TV. Imagine playing a "second cycle" round of Lady Bug with some ping. It's possible on the lower levels with patience to beat that level on a CRT TV. Imagine if there was a 33 ms delay like the best TV at the time, the Playtstation 3D Display. I understand the HDMI technology doesn't add ping by its very existence, but it's just that all the TVs that accept HDMI technology use a TV display technology that is not low ping. And I'm not asking for sub-microsecond Light Gun ping for anything except light gun games, which Coleco doesn't have, but Composite outputs would be good for basic CRT TVs and S-Video and Component for more premium ones. Until they attach an HDMI connection to a CRT TV, and it can properly do both 4x3 and 16x9 modes, you should have an alternative.

 

I've heard of something called an HDMI CRT Adapter which takes an HDMI signal and converts it to component and composite with no delay. Besides, some TVs can't do 240p natively without a conversion process which increases ping which kills the whole point of playing these games.

 

Eve if I have a low Ping HDMI TV, unless it's both low ping enough for light gun games, and in 3D, I'll need 3 tcs downlstairs, one for 3D movies, one for light gun games,a and one for the rest. I already have 2. A 3D 240p/480i->2160p CRTTV would be the solution. I believe a 24 inch 16x9 screen is smaller than a 4x3 one of the same diagonal. So why not a 24 inch 4k CRT 3D TV, that can go down to 240p for old school games and have the Segascope 3D work too..

 

Do you mean latency? Because "ping" is either the sound a submarine makes to measure the distance of underwater objects via sonar echo, or a network utility used to detect the reachability of hosts in IP networks via ICMP packages. Words have meaning.

 

-dZ.

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Just as a reminder, we do plan on having an expansion board for analog audio and video for connection to CRTs. ;)

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Just as a reminder, we do plan on having an expansion board for analog audio and video for connection to CRTs. ;)

 

Man, you cool kids have thought of everything! :grin: :D

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FIrst fo all I'm ot hating on it. If my 2 Colecovisions break down, and either the Phoeix has a direct, unconverted, low ping CRT connection. (I know Composite is better than RF. and the RF looks good enough. So the Composite is better. I won't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.) or I replace my Playstation 3D monitor with a sub 4 ms, 24 inch, 3D, HDMI monitor, I'd consider a Phoenix. I just don't need one now.

 

Second, if playing a Phoenix on a gaming monitor has a lot of moves on frame, that indicates that your Phoenix adds no ping time on HDMI.

 

I figured out how to frame-by frame a you tube video. There is a 2 60-FPS frame difference between when the jump button was pressed and when Mario started his jump. Each frame is 16 ms, so it's a 33 ms lag. It's about the same lag as my native PS3 monitor when comparing a CRT input and a Component 480i input on a PS2. So the HDMI->Composite converter adds 33 ms of lag between the Phoenix and the Commodore Monitor. Press comma to retreat one frame, and period to advance one frame. If you can't remember that, think "<" and ">" without the shift key. You can see for yourself there's 2 frames of ping from when the jump button is fully pressed and when mario starts his jump.

 

Luckily there are no light gun games for a Colecovision, so sub-millisecond ping times are irrelevant. And there are gaming monitor that advertise "less than one frame" lag. The most basic of the ones advertised as low ping are 4 ms, MLG-level Uber-competitive ones are 1 ms ping time. If you used one of those directly with an HDMI hookup, if should be so slight that on average only 1/16 of the actions will have a 1 frame ping time. 15 out of 16 will look instant on the frame. So if you are a competitive Colecovision gamer, which I am (I came close to setting a Twin Galaxies record on Twitch, except the stream was choppy so I have to wait until my net is better before I attempt it) and either a CRT TV is too heavy and bulky or rare, and you can spring for a MLG-level monitor, you should have no complaints. I'd like to see the ping test for a decent 4 ms ping HDMI Native mointor. If 3/4 actions look instant and are at worst one frame of ping, then we know there is nothing in the Phoenix slowing it down.

 

If someone geographically close to the OP has a 4 ms ping or less HDMI monitor, let him borrow it for one filming, and show that there's nothing in the Phoenix that's slowing it down. The only reason why the CRT TV is delayed is because the HDMI-> composite converter delays it when it downconverts. it's downconversion which costs ping time as much as the display. That would be a good sales pitch.

 

But the CRT TV would ONLY be wise if there is no delay on CRT TV. I'm a practical man. I'm about results. I wouldn't use a CRT Mode if it starts natively in 1080p and then downconverts to 480i when I know the delay that's caused in video conversions.. My suggestion is don't add the CRT adapter unless it's close enough to zero ping for non-light gun games to be considered low ping. if the CRT mode is High Ping, and both my Colecovisions broke and I find a low-ping monitor which I can add a 3D mode to externally , I'd pick up a Phoenix.

 

I'm not the primary audience for the Phoenix. I just don't want them seen returned if people complain about ping. I'm trying to be scientific about it. I know native HDMI can have sub-1-frame ping. I just don't want people thinking this is low ping by using a 33 ms converter and expecting perfect ping time.

 

Are the other people complaining about CRTs doing it mainly for the visual effect, or for the gaming performance? My main concern is gaming performance.

Edited by tripletopper

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You know what an OCD is, right? Imagine Adrian Monk playing with a CollectorVision Phoenix, pausing the game he's currently playing, approaching his face close to the large TV screen and squinting and obsessing over how the pixels are not perfectly square, or about this little bit of vertical anti-aliasing on the 56th scanline which he struggles to find an explanation for. It's funny when you watch Monk do it, because he's a fictional character.

 

But such people actually exist in real life, Robb. They bitch and complain about screen resolutions, automatic scaling (which every stinking modern TV does differently anyway) and every little screen artifact their eye catches as they're playing. This is a textbook example of an Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.

 

And yes, I find it sad too, because the only way these people can enjoy video games is if they use a time machine to travel back to 1984, sit on the floor of their parents' 70s-decorated living room and play on their crappy CRT TV (which they remember today with pink-tinted glasses). That's long before they started experiencing power switch problems, failing RAM chips, and all the difficulties we have to worry about today. Those are the people who watch Stranger Things on TV and say "Yeah, the eighties... Those were the days.".

 

I've personally seen TV screen rendering worth complaining about, like how the display gets distorted on my own bedroom TV when I play a Game Boy Advance game on my Super NT with a Super Retro Advance adapter. The result is downright blurry, but it's probably my TV doing a bad job processing the input via the A/V cable. Chances are I'll have better luck on another TV (I haven't tried it yet).

 

The point is, complaints are sometimes warranted, but when I start reading people rambling on about 240p, 720p, 1080i, 3487dshty, 294385739457pptba and whatnot, my eyes just glaze over and my brain pushes me to skip to the next post in the thread. Really, I just ignore those people, and I say to myself "Those people should just enjoy gaming as it is, just like they did when they played games 30 years ago."

 

The bottom line: The CollectorVision Phoenix is fine as it is now. There's always room for improvements here and there, but personally I'm not asking for anything more than what is offered in the context of this Kickstarter campaign. The only thing I hope for is that the HDMI output will be integer-scaled for nice clear pixels. That shouldn't be a problem, right?

 

Yes I remember Monk, and I say the Phoenix is a great product. And hopefully in the future when either my Colecovisoin or CRT TV break down, I can play on a sub-1-ms ping time tv that I add an external 3D TV adapter which I thought of and sent to Sony and Best Buy, and will hopefully get a response, and every game except real light gun games and Segascope games from that era will work fine.

 

And I was thinking about a device kind of like a positional gun for NES, SMS, 7800, Genesis, SNES, 3DO, CD-i, Saturn, Playstation 1 and 2, Dreamcast, and original Xbox that you put sensors on the TV screen, not just one centered sensor, but 4 corners so this device knows EXACTLY where you're aiming, and converts WHERE you're aiming relative to the 4 corners of the TV plus WHEN you press the trigger, and gets fed the analog screen output, and sends to the joystick port the timing of the right pixel on the appropriate frame, and sends out the TV to an HDMI TV, then you got the means of playing a CRT light gun game on a NON-CRT TV. I don;'t know enough about it to finish the execution. But someone else can fill the gaps. Then again I expect no money for this one.

 

And Segascope game will work with a 240p native mode on a monitor.

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Positional light guns are practical and doable. A matter of cost and demand. And they can be based on several technologies.

 

Sonar or infrared triangulation. Sensors mounted on the screen. Direct imaging within the gun via CCD camera. And more.

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And I was thinking about a device kind of like a positional gun for NES, SMS, 7800, Genesis, SNES, 3DO, CD-i, Saturn, Playstation 1 and 2, Dreamcast, and original Xbox that you put sensors on the TV screen, not just one centered sensor, but 4 corners so this device knows EXACTLY where you're aiming, and converts WHERE you're aiming relative to the 4 corners of the TV plus WHEN you press the trigger, and gets fed the analog screen output, and sends to the joystick port the timing of the right pixel on the appropriate frame, and sends out the TV to an HDMI TV, then you got the means of playing a CRT light gun game on a NON-CRT TV. I don;'t know enough about it to finish the execution. But someone else can fill the gaps. Then again I expect no money for this one.

 

And Segascope game will work with a 240p native mode on a monitor.

 

 

Positional light guns are practical and doable. A matter of cost and demand. And they can be based on several technologies.

 

Sonar or infrared triangulation. Sensors mounted on the screen. Direct imaging within the gun via CCD camera. And more.

 

I asked about this once, about a year ago. With no actual light gun games in existence, all I got was crickets. If you made the gun and a few games and offered them at the same time, you might get a few takers.

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We've developed one where it's based on imagery. The console output feeds into the gun's controller, the gun takes a photo of the screen and processes it. And it fires off the "virtual" transistor based on where you point and if there is a target there. It's 2x faster than racing the beam. Right now it needs 4 little sticker-dots to denote the 4 corners of the screen, but a software revision is in progress to do away with that and just rely on what's happening on-screen.

 

Light guns are a niche within a niche hobby and little development has gone into them unfortunately. I've talked about this several years back and there was as little interest then as there is now.

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