Faicuai Posted November 16, 2018 Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) It is the second one.... ...About to fire up the right-port of my A800i for the FIRST time since leaving factory, 35 years ago on 4 / 83... If it boots, I will be testing the guts out of it, including booting it under XL OS (Incognito) but with <= 8K left cart space (not a prepackaged 16Kbyte image) Wish me luck! 8-))) Edited November 16, 2018 by Faicuai 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 (edited) Rest assured, you trusty 800 will work wonderfully, though you may have to insert carefully and re insert a few times to clear years of oxidization of the unused cartridge connector. Edited November 17, 2018 by _The Doctor__ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+slx Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Good luck and have fun monkeying around! For me the monkey wrench allowed the first glimpse into machine language (plus ‚backing up‘ a few carts). One of the few casualties of my 800 being passed on within the family, as it was gone when I recovered it. Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybags Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 Right carts won't be recognised by the XL OS so it'll probably appear in the memory map and leave 32K but not be initialized. What might work is a manual startup - in Basic enter: POKE 32767,104 : Z=USR(32767) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidMil Posted November 17, 2018 Share Posted November 17, 2018 That cartridge was a thing of beauty when used in conjunction with Atari Basic. It made editing and searching sooo much easier! When I found mine and plugged it into my 800 last year, I was very pleased to see that it still worked. I couldn't find the docs but I downloaded them from Atarimamia. Nice find! David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Even with a USR it probably won't work in an XL. it's an 8K cart, and if it registers as an 8K cart, it will map in the higher 40960 to 49151 ($A000 to $BFFF) left cart area instead of the 32768 to 40959 ($8000 to $9FFF) right cart area where the machine code will be compiled to run... plus onboard BASIC would get disabled by the presence of the cart on XL/XE so... It makes sense to me the only way to get monkey wrench mapped to the right cart area, and BASIC in the left cart area at the same time with 1 cart, is a 16K cart with both BASIC & monkey wrench combined into 1 16K cart/ROM. This would be the only option on an XL with 1 cart slot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 Even with a USR it probably won't work in an XL. it's an 8K cart, and if it registers as an 8K cart, it will map in the higher 40960 to 49151 ($A000 to $BFFF) left cart area instead of the 32768 to 40959 ($8000 to $9FFF) right cart area where the machine code will be compiled to run... plus onboard BASIC would get disabled by the presence of the cart on XL/XE so... It makes sense to me the only way to get monkey wrench mapped to the right cart area, and BASIC in the left cart area at the same time with 1 cart, is a 16K cart with both BASIC & monkey wrench combined into 1 16K cart/ROM. This would be the only option on an XL with 1 cart slot. that would be an excellent cart, as rev C basic should be on there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted November 18, 2018 Share Posted November 18, 2018 that would be an excellent cart, as rev C basic should be on there. Look what i found, here you go. Monkey Wrench II "XL" - updated for XL/XE OS, added features, and upper 8KB is BASIC Rev C: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/125889-monkey-wrench/?p=1650472 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 Even with a USR it probably won't work in an XL. it's an 8K cart, and if it registers as an 8K cart, it will map in the higher 40960 to 49151 ($A000 to $BFFF) left cart area instead of the 32768 to 40959 ($8000 to $9FFF) right cart area where the machine code will be compiled to run... plus onboard BASIC would get disabled by the presence of the cart on XL/XE so... It makes sense to me the only way to get monkey wrench mapped to the right cart area, and BASIC in the left cart area at the same time with 1 cart, is a 16K cart with both BASIC & monkey wrench combined into 1 16K cart/ROM. This would be the only option on an XL with 1 cart slot. You got it all wrong on this one, my friend (but for your enjoyment, I promise). I have worked extensively with it, and have completed XL-OS (r3/r4) extensions to NATIVELY boot right carts... and in the 800-i is natural, you just need to insert it on the right port, and that's it. Got the OS fiirware finalized today, and I am testing it for tne next few days. Stay tuned! RIGHT-Cart is coming BACK! 8-)) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Nezgar Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Haha, I remember reading the thread about that earlier now. Enough room in 1200XL for another cartridge slot in the right side of the computer? Thinking about it, it would have been funny/confusing if the only 1200XL cart slot was on the right. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted November 20, 2018 Author Share Posted November 20, 2018 (edited) Haha, I remember reading the thread about that earlier now. Enough room in 1200XL for another cartridge slot in the right side of the computer? Thinking about it, it would have been funny/confusing if the only 1200XL cart slot was on the right. Well, for XL-based platforms, you already have what you have (one cartridge port that remains external (except on the 1200 XL, which looks a HELLUVA better than my 800XL's ptrotruding in the middle / top, which I never really liked). On the 800 it is as it should be, more like a sleeper (held on their own bays, and covered). At this point, I have already completed the PMI, ICS and PRS25 extentsions to OS/XL code that now allows, in essence, natively booting right+left 16k carts images ($8000-$9FFF attached to $A000-$BFFF) and REAL right-carts, attached to RIGHT port, on Incognito-Equipped 800s, running XL OS loaded with these extensions. Cold start? Warm Start? Reset button? No problem, the OS now sees them and boots them nicely. I am testing these extension based on the more robust XE r04 OS load. Will keep testing this week, and share report later! Edited November 20, 2018 by Faicuai 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+slx Posted November 20, 2018 Share Posted November 20, 2018 Enough room in 1200XL for another cartridge slot in the right side of the computer? Thinking about it, it would have been funny/confusing if the only 1200XL cart slot was on the right. Never thought about this before but putting it on the right would really have been a customer service nightmare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted November 22, 2018 Share Posted November 22, 2018 (edited) The RIGHT cart only means that Monkey Wrench uses 8000-9FFF Just append an 8K BASIC image to it. BASIC should reside at A000-BFFF. Burn it to a 16K ROM cart. It works great in an XL/XE/Ultimate Cart, etc. Use Altirra to make a rom image into a car file for Ultimate cart. Edit: clarity / grammar / simplicity. Edited November 22, 2018 by Kyle22 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted November 22, 2018 Author Share Posted November 22, 2018 The RIGHT cart only means that Monkey Wrench uses 8000-9FFF Just append an 8K BASIC image to it. BASIC should reside at A000-BFFF. Burn it to a 16K ROM cart. It works great in an XL/XE/Ultimate Cart, etc. Use Altirra to make a rom image into a car file for Ultimate cart. Edit: clarity / grammar / simplicity. I thought (and tested extensively) the above approach, but the reality is that it does not really work, as it is supposed. All you have to do is press System Reset, and it breaks down. The only way for it to really work (and also boot combined right / left cart. Images) is that the OS itself becomes aware of it, and knows how to boot it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FULS Posted November 23, 2018 Share Posted November 23, 2018 Look what i found, here you go. Monkey Wrench II "XL" - updated for XL/XE OS, added features, and upper 8KB is BASIC Rev C: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/125889-monkey-wrench/?p=1650472 I believe my Rom in this link survives the System Reset issue. It works on the 800 and XL with no mods. Monkey Wrench ll XL & Rev C Basic ($8000-$BFFF).rom 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted November 24, 2018 Author Share Posted November 24, 2018 (edited) I believe my Rom in this link survives the System Reset issue. It works on the 800 and XL with no mods. Monkey Wrench ll XL & Rev C Basic ($8000-$BFFF).rom Your rom survives RESET and cold-start, because, instead of executing an unmodified $A000-$BFFF image of Atari Basic, it actually carries a different set of execution vectors on the very last six bytes: these vectors point to the $8000 region for execution, where the Monkey Wrench image is located. This is NOT what we want, as this arrangement forces such modification and tampering per each RIGHT cart that we may want to use. What we want, instead, is the XL operating system to natively detect the right-cart image presence, without ANY changes to the images themselves, and boot them transparently and reliably (including the PHYSICAL right-cart itself, on an Incognito-equipped A800 running a native XL-based OS load (not Omnimon, not OS-b, etc.) Edited November 24, 2018 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 What would this not be compatible with? What kind of things would not like that vector being changed? I can't think of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted November 24, 2018 Author Share Posted November 24, 2018 (edited) What would this not be compatible with? What kind of things would not like that vector being changed? I can't think of anything. Well, if I run an 800-i, and I also happen to have The Monkey Wrench (physical) cart (or any other right-cart), what I REALLY want is to power-up the 800, on either OS-b or XL-based OS loads, and boot MY existing right-carts, plugged on the right port. Hacking soft-images, and replacing Cart-Initialization vectors IS NOT what I really want. There is really nothing mysterious about this goal, though. Edited November 24, 2018 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 he is basically saying it makes more sense to fix os logic so all right carts work in the 800 Incognito in whatever mode selected... which sounds good to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 (edited) I get this. My question was why is this bad. Yes, it would be nice if everything worked 100% as we want it. I feel that this is a small price to pay. What does changing that vector BREAK? ??? Edit: Grammar, and also an afterthought: If the OS would require changing to support this cart setup, that would be MUCH more incompatible. I would need to patch every OS that I use. That is not an option. Edited November 24, 2018 by Kyle22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted November 24, 2018 Share Posted November 24, 2018 Yes and no, it was already a part of the OS in the 800, and would not be much different than the woke up 1200XL that sleeps in XL/XE line... it can still function the same ram/rom mapping we already enjoy in theory. I couldn't hurt to try and see how it shakes out... if it fails nothing lost but whoever worked on it's time.... if it succeeds we all win... If it's a partial success we have another modified OS to help folks who wish to swap it in and out based on their need. Until that big experiment happens we can use the modified cart images as they do work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted November 24, 2018 Author Share Posted November 24, 2018 (edited) I get this. My question was why is this bad. Yes, it would be nice if everything worked 100% as we want it. I feel that this is a small price to pay. What does changing that vector BREAK? ??? Edit: Grammar, and also an afterthought: If the OS would require changing to support this cart setup, that would be MUCH more incompatible. I would need to patch every OS that I use. That is not an option. You have to keep in mind that re-mapping the Cart Initialization vector/s on cart's last 6-bytes means you necessarily imply / transfer-to execution control to the pre-cooked cart-image itself. There is currently NO discussion about implied incompatibility or viability of this approach, though. What is currently under consideration is a) this is NOT the real / native OS control logic of right and left carts, b) above approach is not universal, per se. In the context of Ultimate / Incognito, there is hardly an "absolute" need to patch ALL OS loads for this matter, as we will see later. Edited November 24, 2018 by Faicuai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle22 Posted November 25, 2018 Share Posted November 25, 2018 Yes and no, it was already a part of the OS in the 800, and would not be much different than the woke up 1200XL that sleeps in XL/XE line... it can still function the same ram/rom mapping we already enjoy in theory. I couldn't hurt to try and see how it shakes out... if it fails nothing lost but whoever worked on it's time.... if it succeeds we all win... If it's a partial success we have another modified OS to help folks who wish to swap it in and out based on their need. Until that big experiment happens we can use the modified cart images as they do work. OK, then let's use non-patched MonkeyWrench/BASIC ROMs with an 800 (or compatible), and patched ROMs to use with XL/XE. Problem solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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