+mytek Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 17 hours ago, griff3125 said: Yeah, the older model needs a propitiatory cable that costs $40 to even update the firmware, so $4.99 is really quite fair. The original model does have S-Video in, but with the Pro released, I'd absolutely go for that, probably will at some point. Yep I already looked at what it would take to do it myself, since this older (non-PRO) version can't be updated over its USB. So sending it in for an update ended up being about half as much as DIY. If I were to buy another one in the future, it would be the PRO version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, Faicuai said: These are cross-standard NTSC/PAL titles. Will run in both. The point on hand is that sanity has nothing to do actual (true) hardware specs. and our ability (or disability) to enjoy those to their full potential. Just because a title will run on NTSC doesn't mean it was intended for NTSC by the authors; and that's my point here; any software intended for NTSC takes into account the common denominator, maximum-viewable screen height, which is far below 240 (more like 210 - 220 for most people's displays, and in a lot of cases even less). Additionally, anyone who's interested in taking advantage of PAL-based development will already have some setup in place for running PAL-only software; so they won't have any need to view titles that incidentally run in NTSC; they can just view them as intended on a true, PAL-compatible setup. So, having an NTSC setup that can display more than 231 scanlines, although not undesirable, is ultimately of little consequence. Edited April 15, 2020 by MrFish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 Why not use the every line the Atari can produce on the NTSC screen, arguing that most didn't bitd seems a very week thing indeed... sorry but our club adjusted any TV or monitor that didn't show the whole thing for each other... It wasn't like you had to do some big hack, it was a couple of twist on the height and width pots for Grabthors hammers sake... honestly wtf... It was almost a non issue... sometimes I think people just like to be stubborn... Nobody liked a ballooned screen, they loved to see the parts of the TV shows and movies they were missing. Come on now, man... if a modern device or screen won't allow the full screen then you really need to pick something that will. Full stop. Moving on. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 8 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: Why not use the every line the Atari can produce on the NTSC screen, arguing that most didn't bitd seems a very week thing indeed... sorry but our club adjusted any TV or monitor that didn't show the whole thing for each other... It wasn't like you had to do some big hack, it was a couple of twist on the height and width pots for Grabthors hammers sake... honestly wtf... It was almost a non issue... sometimes I think people just like to be stubborn... Nobody liked a ballooned screen, they loved to see the parts of the TV shows and movies they were missing. Come on now, man... if a modern device or screen won't allow the full screen then you really need to pick something that will. Full stop. Moving on. I'm not talking about BITD; I'm talking about what the common NTSC monitor sitting on desks now are showing. If you or others have one showing more, good for you. I personally don't find it an issue. Most NTSC monitors are set up and used displaying far less vertical height, in the vast majority of cases. Why do you think Altirra defaults to 224 scanlines in NTSC mode? I said it's desirable to show more, but ultimately of little consequence to have an NTSC monitor displaying 231 scanlines rather than 240; and I think most people would agree. And my point here, is that it's silly for a person targeting the NTSC platform to develop software that expects more than the 210-220 scanline range. Why? Because you'll ultimately end up with many user that won't be seeing the information out of that range. Do you think it's a coincidence that most people developing for NTSC today stick within those constraints? Do you think they're doing it so their program will look more BITD'ish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) gah, come on man, get serious. I think I get it though... we don't need more than 16k, gtia beep is all we need for sound (console buzzer for the win). perhaps they didn't give it a thought... just going with the flow.... but I do like your use of most etc etc.... but that's not true. A good number of NTSC ports including the ones I've beta/playtested in the past handful of years fill the screen. I don't remember a great I can't see the game uprising. Most have figured out how to adjust their modern displays these days as well it would seem... if a device makes it impossible... it's not a good choice for a retro system. Edited April 15, 2020 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: A good number of NTSC ports including the ones I've beta/playtested in the past handful of years fill the screen. I'm not talking about development that displays some (background graphics, etc.) information beyond the limits I'm specifying; I'm talking about displaying important information, like scores, number of players, etc. Show me something developed in NTSC land that does that. Edited April 15, 2020 by MrFish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) another pong, arkanoid, collaborations between people across the pond, it doesn't matter what the developers nation and system of origin were. But so long as NTSC was one of the final targets, do we really need to perform etymology on software now. I'm not bothering to go through every game and counting the scan lines. I think this is an argument without a cause. There is no reason that we should not use any of the capabilities of our machines to full advantage. Narrow field console buzzer games have their place, I just don't want that to be the standard. So long as the choice fits what the vision is I don't care where it comes from... and with that I'm going back to playing a game from a far away land that is certainly not from Arkansas ... Dimo had to wait for me to answer you. Poor Dimo... I'm not about to choose any device that would limit my choices, you can if it suits you. BTW did anybody test retrotink pro what have you and see what it produces? Edited April 15, 2020 by _The Doctor__ 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 7 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: another pong, arkanoid,... PAL development... (yawn)... 7 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: There is no reason that we should not use any of the capabilities of our machines to full advantage. I agree; but assuming that every user will conform to your ideal setup -- as a developer -- is foolish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) The only thing foolish is to avoid something as if it's an issue when it is not. Development of Another PONG was done with NTSC compatibility in mind... I would know... but clearly you don't... it was done as a fun project that many people enjoy... though certain concessions were made for emu use in the random number generator.... Edited April 15, 2020 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 5 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: Development of Another PONG was done with NTSC compatibility in mind... I thought you were talking about a different Pong game. My bad. Alright, you've got one title out of... thousands... to help make your point. Good job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 7 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: The only thing foolish is to avoid something as if it's an issue when it is not. Exactly! It's no issue to have a video setup for NTSC that displays 231 scanlines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) No, you are making it an issue to restrict the display... and I told you straight up I wasn't wasting my time pandering and going on and on over your ridiculous stance... By the reasoning you have presented, it's also no issue to use narrow field and use less scan lines... your argument is a straw man... I'd rather watch the straw men burn than continue watching people carry them... on a side note, haven't slept in days, our plasmapheresis center is short staffed, and the problems come home to us as well. I am sure we'll have time to play count the scanlines soon enough. zombie mode kicked in, naps are all there is. Edited April 15, 2020 by _The Doctor__ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 1 hour ago, _The Doctor__ said: ridiculous stance... I guess you think Phaeron is ridiculous for setting the default NTSC screen height in Altirra to 224 as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) boy you just can't stop today, since all else failed try to drag Phaeron into it. If you run the full screen games in Altirra can the emulator handle it and produce the full display? It did in normal overscan mode up to probably the end of 2013.... I bet you someone cried about blank black space in the emu display so It might have been changed for that reason. This could probably also go along the lines of carrying on about 0-239 and 1-240 and then badlines blah blah, oh and if at 240 and this happens then issue because timing that.... so will the next diatribe be about it only being 239 safely because it's difficult in some situations to do 240 because somebody jumped the shark and it acted like 241 and everything blew up... The Atari can do 240 and so can just about any proper display... Altirra is more than capable of displaying it, though some changes that were done for whatever reason might not make you think so. That's because Phaeron is dah MAN! Edited April 15, 2020 by _The Doctor__ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 3 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: we don't need more than 16k, gtia beep is all we need for sound (console buzzer for the win). 2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: Narrow field console buzzer games have their place, I just don't want that to be the standard. 2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: No, you are making it an issue to restrict the display... and I told you straight up I wasn't wasting my time pandering and going on and on over your ridiculous stance... By the reasoning you have presented, it's also no issue to use narrow field and use less scan lines... your argument is a straw man... I'd rather watch the straw men burn than continue watching people carry them... 6 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: This could probably also go along the lines of carrying on about 0-239 and 1-240 and then badlines blah blah, oh and if at 240 and this happens then issue because timing that.... so will the next diatribe be about it only being 239 safely because it's difficult in some situations to do 240 because somebody jumped the shark and it acted like 241 and everything blew up... "Straw man"? Half of your replies are filled with straw men. I guess you think the amount of words you use will give your argument more weight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 16 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: boy you just can't stop today, since all else failed try to drag Phaeron into it. The failure is in your ability to convince me that the majority of NTSC Atari users are sitting out there with sad faces, waiting for someone to fill in all the missing vertical scanlines on their displays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) i think you've entered the emkay arena...my points were valid responses meeting straw men with straw men... you are just mad because I decided to have a bonfire and burn all the straw men up once there were enough to roast some weenie with. no one can convince you of anything, you have to convince yourself this is so very borish... I enjoy some stuff that uses the full display and it's great. You like less for a reason I can't fathom. What difference does it make. I will continue to advise people to use stuff that will never have a display issue. You can advise them to use stuff that might. Have a nice day. Edited April 15, 2020 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: and I told you straight up I wasn't wasting my time pandering and going on and on over your ridiculous stance... I'd imagine at least 5% (if not more) of your participation on these forums is comprised of pandering and being pandered to. 20 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: boy you just can't stop today... The irony of people who say this as they continue reply... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) nah, just watching you die trying to have the last word... which you can have, we normally agree on a number of things. sure hope whatever crawled up there comes loose though... I kinda liked it better when we got along... Edited April 15, 2020 by _The Doctor__ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 5 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: meeting straw men with straw men... I think you have no idea what a straw man argument even is. Take another look at what I've quoted from your posts, as an example, and show me something similar in any of my posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 1 minute ago, _The Doctor__ said: trying to have the last word... It's not about having the last word -- although it's a great love of debators -- it's about speaking with meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+MrFish Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 1 hour ago, MrFish said: I guess you think Phaeron is ridiculous for setting the default NTSC screen height in Altirra to 224 as well? 39 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: boy you just can't stop today, since all else failed try to drag Phaeron into it. If you run the full screen games in Altirra can the emulator handle it and produce the full display? It did in normal overscan mode up to probably the end of 2013.... I bet you someone cried about blank black space in the emu display so It might have been changed for that reason. This could probably also go along the lines of carrying on about 0-239 and 1-240 and then badlines blah blah, oh and if at 240 and this happens then issue because timing that.... so will the next diatribe be about it only being 239 safely because it's difficult in some situations to do 240 because somebody jumped the shark and it acted like 241 and everything blew up... The Atari can do 240 and so can just about any proper display... Altirra is more than capable of displaying it, though some changes that were done for whatever reason might not make you think so. That's because Phaeron is dah MAN! Pulling out another straw man, or you just don't get the question? I've never said anything about what the Atari can handle or what Altirra can handle. Read the question again... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tschak909 Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybird3rd Posted April 15, 2020 Share Posted April 15, 2020 Are your lives so devoid of real problems that you need to go out of your way to find such obscure subjects to bicker about? Knock it off or take it to PMs, or the thread gets locked. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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