Arcade1up modding debate

[Cynicaster]

20 minutes ago, negative1 said:

i totally disagree about the 8 way sticks. if you're good enough, it doesn't make any difference whatsoever when playing.

 

i use a custom 8-way fight stick, for my xbox 360, and xbox one. i've killscreened pac-man, and dig dug with it several times.

also set high scores on ms-pac man, and used it for rally-x, and plenty of other namco and atari classics.

in fact the 7.1 million on pac-man was made using that stick.

 

sure, it doesn't feel right, like a 4-way stick. but in the end, it makes no difference.

 

it's not a matter of training yourself, or getting used to it. i can switch back to playing with a 4 way stick,

and get the same results on those games also.

 

i say, go with the easier option, that way, its less of hassle when playing all the other games, that do need 8-way, like xevious, etc.

 

later

-1

 

We're agreeing more than you think.  Your qualifier "if you're good enough" says it all.  With this caveat you're basically acknowledging that a player needs to expend some of their figurative processor bandwidth to "managing" the incorrect joystick.  I'm talking about removing that hindrance from the equation and just focusing on playing the game with the proper controls.      

 

Besides, with the level you evidently play at on many of these classic games, I don't think you're the best example of what mere mortals will struggle with when playing these same games.   I'm certain Alex Lifeson could take a $15 pawn shop guitar with warped neck and fight against it well enough that he could play circles around me.  That doesn't mean I don't have a more enjoyable experience and/or put in a better performance when using an instrument appropriately set up for the music I'm playing.  Again, the point isn't that it's "impossible" to play 4-way games with 8-way stick; the point is simply that it does make a difference.  Whether that difference warrants the inclusion of a dedicated 4-way stick is up to the individual, but in a forum post where MAME newcomers might be taking in the information to plan a project, to gloss over the difference is to provide bad information.    

 

 

 

[+wongojack]

4 way vs 8 way

 

I have a big ugly control panel with a 4 way and 8 way stick for my Windows XP MAME setup.   I didn't really understand the difference and impact on gameplay until I was able to try them side by side in the same games.  I would say it is an exaggeration to say there is "no difference." There definitely is a difference, and I find myself giving preference to the 4-way stick a lot.

[John Stamos Mullet]

I've played countless hours on these games on both 4 and 8 way sticks, with literally no difference in my scores or gameplay experience. I do alright. I'm not setting world records, and I don't care to. I would imagine most people don't either. I think most of the adherence to the 4 way only thought process is a combination of stock purism and psychosomatic convincing oneself that you play better with "proper" equipment. 

 

And that's fine. There is room for multiple opinions, and ultimately everyone needs to make up their own mind. 

 

I would also add that while keeping the control panel simpler is a concern, the other more important caveat here is that these are cheap consumer grade emulation cabs, so none of it is really 100% accurate. It's a "good enough" cab, and using an 8-way is also a "good enough" way to set it up. 

 

I wouldnt suggest gutting a genuine original Pac-Man cab and putting an 8 way with a raspberry pi in it. That would be a sin. But putting a high end 4way arcade quality stick in one of these Arcade1up cabs is a bit like putting a handmade, genuine leather-upholstered classic Ferrari steering wheel in a 1982 Chevy Chevette. 

 

Again - just my opinion. 

 

Here's the video I made:

 

 

[+wongojack]

Rather than going all "psychosomatic" . . . more likely our game preferences and gameplay habits are different.

[John Stamos Mullet]

Video of my finished cab:

 

 

 

[Cynicaster]

16 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

I've played countless hours on these games on both 4 and 8 way sticks, with literally no difference in my scores or gameplay experience. I do alright. I'm not setting world records, and I don't care to. I would imagine most people don't either. I think most of the adherence to the 4 way only thought process is a combination of stock purism and psychosomatic convincing oneself that you play better with "proper" equipment. 

 

And that's fine. There is room for multiple opinions, and ultimately everyone needs to make up their own mind. 

 

I would also add that while keeping the control panel simpler is a concern, the other more important caveat here is that these are cheap consumer grade emulation cabs, so none of it is really 100% accurate. It's a "good enough" cab, and using an 8-way is also a "good enough" way to set it up. 

 

I wouldnt suggest gutting a genuine original Pac-Man cab and putting an 8 way with a raspberry pi in it. That would be a sin. But putting a high end 4way arcade quality stick in one of these Arcade1up cabs is a bit like putting a handmade, genuine leather-upholstered classic Ferrari steering wheel in a 1982 Chevy Chevette. 

 

Again - just my opinion. 

 

If you don't have the room for a 4-way or you don't want the clutter on your panel, that's perfectly valid.  If you personally deem 8-way as "good enough" in 4-way games, that's valid too.  As you say, there is room for lots of opinions, which is why I don't understand why you keep "straw-manning" the pro-4-way viewpoint by making up things that nobody is actually saying and arguing against those made up points.  

 

Re: Purism.  In almost 10 years of being in the MAME cabinet hobby, hanging out over at BYOAC, etc. I have never heard an argument for including a generic 4-way joystick on a multi-game cabinet that is rooted in purism.  Every single time, it's about ensuring your character does what you intend it to do in 4-way games with effectively 100% reliability.  That's it.  I think most of these guys accept that you can't eat your cake and have it too; either you're being pure with dedicated cabinets for specific types of games, or you're impure with a multi-game cabinet and generic controls.  With all of the different 4-way joystick designs that have been used over the decades, selecting just one of them to use on a massively multi-game cabinet and claiming "purism" makes no sense on its face.  For me personally, it's also pretty hard to reconcile notions of purist tendencies with how, on my MAME cabinet, I routinely and happily use a trackball to play Star Wars, I use a spinner to play Championship Sprint, and I use foot pedals to shoot in Assault because I don't have top-fire joysticks.  All of these "inaccuracies" are readily fixable for a purist, yet I have absolutely no inclination to fix them.  The stand-in controls I have get the job done to a level that is satisfactory for me, just as an 8-way apparently does for you on 4-way games, but the difference is I would never make the argument that the purported benefits of using the real controls are imaginary.      

 

Re: "psychosomatic"  That's a great theory, until it's proven objectively wrong on the 4th or 5th screen in Frogger, when you're frantically hopping parallel to traffic.  You tap-tap-tap your 8-way stick toward the right and on your 3rd or 4th tap your Frog instead decides to jump forward or backward and gets squashed.  I suppose this is where you say "that has never ever once happened to me when using an 8-way stick in Frogger" and nobody who has ever actually played Frogger believes you.

 

Re: "Ferrari steering wheel"  Who is suggesting that the only two options are 1) no 4-way; and 2) a boutique, high-priced 4-way stick?  Happ Super in 4-way mode with bolt-on Groovy Game Gear diamond restrictor - total cost: about $15.  You get great general-purpose 4-way control, bullet-proof ruggedness, a nice positive 4-way feel, and - as the icing on the cake - you can still flip the bird to snooty 80s arcade purists by using a Happ Super instead of a hoity-toity leaf-switch Wico.  Win-win. :)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

 

 

[Boba Debt]

For my three 60-in-1 conversions I choose to use that card for 3 different cabinet based on the controls, 8-way and track ball games in one, 4-way games in another and 2 way games in another.

 

For the amount of money it costs to build these modded machines it just didn't make sense to try and cram all of the games I wanted to play into one cabinet

 

However, on my 19-in-1, I went with a pair of Ultimarc Mag Plus sticks that can be switched from the top of the panel.

 

 

I really didn't want to have 3 horizontally oriented cabinets with 2-3 games on each.  However, I am using a relay and switch system to re-configure the controls for the different games on that board.

 

 

 

 

 

[John Stamos Mullet]

So I ended up removing APB and 720 - even though I really like those games, they really do need an analog spinner/trackball to work properly.

 

but I did leave Missile Command and Crystal CAstles in there as the joystick conversion in MAME for those it quite a bit better.

 

This thing is awesome.

[NE146]

Yeah I'm kind of on the opposite side.  I have the 12-1 for trackball & spinner games and so far the only mod I've done is adding the Glenn's RGS spinner which basically made a huge difference in Tempest & Major Havoc enjoyability. The trackball, while it isn't the best, works sufficiently enough for now. 

 

Anway the point is before, I saw no need to make it a multicab mod since I already have a working RPi3 barcade, but NOW.. with the better spinner, I'm reconsidering that thought. If I could make the 12-1 a Retropie multigame as well, BUT specifically highlighting Trackball & Spinner games, I think that'd rock. My Barcade with its SF2 control layout can't do those games justice at all.. so, I think I'ma gonna do it!

[John Stamos Mullet]

Just bought a couple of these:

 

http://www.thearcadegamefactory.com/store/store.php?crn=548&rn=657&action=show_detail

 

If you're in the market for adding a lighted marquee to your Arcade1up, these are the best quality available, and they're only $50. They make them in small batches, and just added the order button back this morning for the next batch, so if you're interested.. act fast. Their last batch sold out in a few hours.

[Zoyous]

Seems to me it's largely down to the code how a game that's been designed for a 4-way stick will respond when it receives input of two directions at once from an 8-way stick. If you start off holding it to the right and then start pushing diagonal right-and-up, the code would determine whether it a) disregards the up, b) changes to up and disregards the right. But aside from that, the 4-way guard (or whatever it's called) is going to assist a player who is prone to using the stick in an imprecise way (a.k.a.most people) and help them push in the intended direction even if their form is sloppy.

 

I remember seeing an arcade stick that had way of switching between 4 and 8-way a few years ago. Some kind of mechanism, like you pull up on the stick and then rotate it to switch it. Anybody else seen those and tried them?

[Shannon]

Doesn't MAME have an option to prevent 4 way sticks games from doing weird things when using an 8 way?

 

One game I can think of as an example is Burgertime.  If you press diagonal your character will stop moving.

 

[John Stamos Mullet]

4 hours ago, Shannon said:

Doesn't MAME have an option to prevent 4 way sticks games from doing weird things when using an 8 way?

 

One game I can think of as an example is Burgertime.  If you press diagonal your character will stop moving.

 

Indeed it does, and honestly, playing with an 8-way stick has been exactly the same as with a 4-way. I was just thinking I might also decide to upgrade my stock Pac-man cabinet's stick, and was wondering if these switchable ones were any good.

[+save2600]

6 hours ago, Shannon said:

Doesn't MAME have an option to prevent 4 way sticks games from doing weird things when using an 8 way?

 

One game I can think of as an example is Burgertime.  If you press diagonal your character will stop moving.

 

I noticed that your player will freeze for a sec. when playing certain games, but never knew what that was all about. Figured it was my X Arcade controller. Glad to hear it's not just me! So, where is this option to disable flaky 8-way behavior for 4-way games? Don't recall ever seeing it in the settings menu and a Google search yields all sorts of confusion and static as usual...

 

Some say "newer" versions of MAME (with no revision given) automatically compensate for the 4-way games, or use a restrictor plate, and others still insist on switching out the joystick. Haven't been able to find where you can manually change a setting.

[Shannon]

I think the command line option is...

 

-joystick_contradictory

 

https://docs.mamedev.org/commandline/commandline-all.html

 

 

[John Stamos Mullet]

So I did order a USB trackball for the Retropie Galaga cab. Hasn't arrived yet, but I will try to video the surgery/installation.

 

Originally I was planning on trying to re-purpose my old 2600 proline trak-ball which I had converted into a microsoft serial mouse, using the guts of a Mitsui serial mouse - but unfortunately USB to serial port adapters don't work on Retropie.

[John Stamos Mullet]

Tweaked my custom version of the Retropie Menu to be more Vertical-friendly.