Incognito - Now's your chance!

[+DrVenkman]

18 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

his switch does not, for some reason, trigger an ATR swap.  I can press it til doomsday.  Works with a VOM.  I upgraded to FJC's latest firmware first off of course, but I have no "ATR swap button" widget in the BIOS, nor anything relating to a side-cart rom mode.  I've seen both of those in reference to this issue and, in the absence of the widgets, don't know if the buttons I've connected are actually enabled or suppressed somehow in firmware.

I don't know what "Works with a VOM" means, but the ATR swap/rotate functionality is part of the SIDEloader functionality. Mount an ATR as D1:, mount a second as D2:, then boot. Pressing the switch will swap the two disks, and if you have more than two mounted, it will rotate among them in a repeating "circle" so to speak. There's nothing that I recall in the Loader firmware to enable or disable the functionality. "It just works" with the firmware and hardware.

[toddtmw]

4 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

I don't know what "Works with a VOM" means, but the ATR swap/rotate functionality is part of the SIDEloader functionality. Mount an ATR as D1:, mount a second as D2:, then boot. Pressing the switch will swap the two disks, and if you have more than two mounted, it will rotate among them in a repeating "circle" so to speak. There's nothing that I recall in the Loader firmware to enable or disable the functionality. "It just works" with the firmware and hardware.

I assume VOM = Volt Ohm Meter 

[Jeffrey Worley]

1 hour ago, toddtmw said:

I assume VOM = Volt Ohm Meter 

RIght.  So I know the switch is switching the ground connection on and off to the signal pin for the ATR swap.  So I'm flummoxed, flabbergasted, completely at sea, totally at a loss...

 

Jeff

[Faicuai]

7 minutes ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

RIght.  So I know the switch is switching the ground connection on and off to the signal pin for the ATR swap.  So I'm flummoxed, flabbergasted, completely at sea, totally at a loss...

 

Jeff

The .ATR switch remains operational well beyond any BIOS / LOADER layer, and into any running application.

 

Please, download SUMMER GAMES or POLAR PIERRE (comes with two disks, A & B), attach them in SIDE/Loader. Boot first disk from D1 with CTRL-R, and just choose any (practice) sport that will require Disk B. When prompted so (on screen),  press .ATR switch button you implemented. In this way, you will absolutely confirm that it truly works... or not.

[Kyle22]

On 10/27/2019 at 7:52 PM, Faicuai said:

Correct. 

 

"Not-as-described" is the what comes to mind... A simple / clear explanation on this matter is in order, I believe...

 

Also notice (and be VERY, VERY careful) that in some (1st-gen) units the PBI 50-pin plastic header has the insertion-tab / slot INVERTED, at times... that is, instead of facing the bottom, as shown in the picture, it actually faces UP... Which means, if you ever connect a full 50-pin female terminal to it, you may end up inverting ALL of the signals, and possibly blowing the card (!)

 

I can say this... because my first two units present inverted 50-pin plastic headers! (I noticed when I was building a 50-PIN IDC cable with terminals for future use...)

'Not as Described' Really?" DEAL with it, you SNOWFLAKE!

 

Alphas win, Betas LOSE. Get REAL.

 

[+slx]

5 hours ago, Gunstar said:

That's what is destined, at best, for our generation's computers, some museum pieces that maybe get taken out and played with at special events and show-and-tell. And the old computers will become more and more rare over time until they are only the purview of rich eccentric collectors to adorn their library-museum or whatever.   

So let's enjoy and modify them like there was no tomorrow and let our heirs care about whether we ruined their chance to become millionaires pristine boxed 800s without those pesky 2000's add-on boards....

[flashjazzcat]

8 hours ago, Faicuai said:

The .ATR switch remains operational well beyond any BIOS / LOADER layer, and into any running application.

Totally incorrect. The only 'level' which interacts with the button in any way is the PBI BIOS. The ATR swap facility would be completely useless if it couldn't be activated while an application is running, since an application which requires a disk swap commonly needs to be... well... running before it requires said disk swap.

8 hours ago, Faicuai said:

Please, download SUMMER GAMES or POLAR PIERRE (comes with two disks, A & B), attach them in SIDE/Loader. Boot first disk from D1 with CTRL-R, and just choose any (practice) sport that will require Disk B. When prompted so (on screen),  press .ATR switch button you implemented. In this way, you will absolutely confirm that it truly works... or not.

What do you expect to happen here? I would hope that D1: and D2: are exchanged before execution of the first SIO operation following latching of the button. My question is why would you press the button in the first place unless the program expects to find the contents of D2: on D1: the next time it accesses the disk?

 

Regardless of the fact I have never accidentally pressed the ATR swap button in some eight years of operation, and regardless of the fact you're doing exceptionally well if you can inadvertently trigger an ATR swap without even fitting the button to the machine, if you think a button disable setting should be reinstated (it was removed in a prior firmware revision in order to simplify configuration for those who get themselves into knots by ballsing up button installation and then wonder if they 'have the settings right'), feel free to lodge it as a feature request instead of repeatedly crapping on this functionality in order to further your apparent belief that the feature is not required or somehow constitutes a blight on Atari's hallowed 800 design aesthetic.

 

Meanwhile, feel free to lodge a bug report (again, preferably in a non-obnoxious manner) if you have reason to believe some reproducible issue exists with the ATR swap button functionality (i.e. if it fails to rotate ATR mount points in the scenario you described above when the user presses the button for no good reason whatsoever).

[flashjazzcat]

11 hours ago, Jeffrey Worley said:

This switch does not, for some reason, trigger an ATR swap

You understand how it's supposed to work, right? The button latches and is seen by the next SIO call (commonly when software expecting a disk swap opens a file expected to be on disk #2). The firmware - upon seeing the latched button - clears the latch and swaps the volumes before carrying out the SIO request.

 

All I can tell you is that things work if you install them as per the instructions. If you decide to come up with a novel alternative solution and find it doesn't work, the novel alternative solution is probably what's at fault.

[Faicuai]

3 hours ago, flashjazzcat said:

Totally incorrect. The only 'level' which interacts with the button in any way is the PBI BIOS. The ATR swap facility would be completely useless if it couldn't be activated while an application is running, since an application which requires a disk swap commonly needs to be... well... running before it requires said disk swap.

What do you expect to happen here? I would hope that D1: and D2: are exchanged before execution of the first SIO operation following latching of the button. My question is why would you press the button in the first place unless the program expects to find the contents of D2: on D1: the next time it accesses the disk?

 

Regardless of the fact I have never accidentally pressed the ATR swap button in some eight years of operation, and regardless of the fact you're doing exceptionally well if you can inadvertently trigger an ATR swap without even fitting the button to the machine, if you think a button disable setting should be reinstated (it was removed in a prior firmware revision in order to simplify configuration for those who get themselves into knots by ballsing up button installation and then wonder if they 'have the settings right'), feel free to lodge it as a feature request instead of repeatedly crapping on this functionality in order to further your apparent belief that the feature is not required or somehow constitutes a blight on Atari's hallowed 800 design aesthetic.

 

Meanwhile, feel free to lodge a bug report (again, preferably in a non-obnoxious manner) if you have reason to believe some reproducible issue exists with the ATR swap button functionality (i.e. if it fails to rotate ATR mount points in the scenario you described above when the user presses the button for no good reason whatsoever).

Well, after reading everything again, I can only conclude that the word "layer" has triggered some sort of hysteria / panic.

 

I should probably have clearly stated that the .ATR-switch button operates well beyond the BIOS / SIDE-loader menus/screens. Or said in a different way, you don't have to have the SIDE-loader / BIOS main-menu facilities active (on-screen) in order to be able to actuate-it. For this reason, a direct, in-game/app testing of disk-swapping was definitely in order, if not done already.

 

And as for the rest of the comments, features requests, bugs reports, "triggering an ATR swap without a button installed" (God knows what that bizarro concept means), I would suggest you to institute a structured / organized BETA-testing and Feature-enhancement processes. Not only it has been already suggested to you by other contributors, but I will also help you a long way when dealing with present and future releases.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Faicuai

[+DrVenkman]

Ah, “Management-splaining” ... only on AtariaAge, eh folks?  

[flashjazzcat]

56 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

I should probably have clearly stated that the .ATR-switch button operates well beyond the BIOS / SIDE-loader menus/screens

Yeah; in other words you should have made the point more clearly instead of sticking the word 'layer' in where it does not belong. Far from provoking panic or hysteria, it elicited a pragmatic treatment of the term (since 'layer' commonly refers to the software hierarchy, with low-level drivers being at the bottom, hardware abstracted drivers a little higher up, and applications near the top and well beyond any 'layer' that directly interacts with the mechanics of the ATR swap button). While the revised (waffle-free) description is much better, I still don't understand the reason the point is being made, since if the button only worked when the firmware menu or loader were visible on the screen, the facility would be totally useless. So all you are doing is providing a long-winded truism.

56 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

For this reason, a direct, in-game/app testing of disk-swapping was definitely in order, if not done already.

Where else would one test it but 'in app' or 'in game', for the reasons I have already stated?

56 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

And as for the rest of the comments, features requests, bugs reports, "triggering an ATR swap without a button installed" (God knows what that bizarro concept means)

It means you've made a lot of noise about NOT installing the button on your own Incognito machine, and yet you have more to say than anyone else regarding how it should/shouldn't or does/doesn't work.

56 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

I would suggest you to institute a structured / organized BETA-testing and Feature-enhancement processes. Not only it has been already suggested to you by other contributors, but I will also help you a long way when dealing with present and future releases.

With specific reference to which bug do you call the beta testing methodology into question? I am still waiting to hear what about the ATR swap button does not work as intended. If you think the return of a 'button disable' feature would be useful, please say so instead of trying to be a smart-arse. As for the offer of help with future testing: I don't really have much use for beta testers whose primary objective appears to be showboating on public forums and in so doing reducing the signal to noise ratio of any discourse to completely unbearable levels.

49 minutes ago, DrVenkman said:

Ah, “Management-splaining” ... only on AtariaAge, eh folks?

I'd call it corporate bullshit.

 

As said: if someone can tell me if I am being asked to implement a button deactivation feature or informed of a bug which prevents the swap feature from working, please let me know. Some of you will already be aware that I have tuned out some of the most billowing gas-bags on the forum (although quoted content remains an unwelcome reminder of their existence), but since even a stopped clock is right twice a day, I remain open to suggestions regardless of their source.

Edited November 14, 2019 by flashjazzcat

[+Stephen]

19 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

billowing gas-bags

Well, there's another one to remember!

[Tempest]

Is there anything people won't argue about these days?  Come on guys, stay on topic, be respectful, and know when to let things go.   I'm really starting to wonder about the mental health of some of our members.  

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, flashjazzcat said:

Yeah; in other words you should have made the point more clearly instead of sticking the word 'layer' in where it does not belong. Far from provoking panic or hysteria, it elicited a pragmatic treatment of the term (since 'layer' commonly refers to the software hierarchy, with low-level drivers being at the bottom, hardware abstracted drivers a little higher up, and applications near the top and well beyond any 'layer' that directly interacts with the mechanics of the ATR swap button). While the revised (waffle-free) description is much better, I still don't understand the reason the point is being made, since if the button only worked when the firmware menu or loader were visible on the screen, the facility would be totally useless. So all you are doing is providing a long-winded truism.

Where else would one test it but 'in app' or 'in game', for the reasons I have already stated?

It means you've made a lot of noise about NOT installing the button on your own Incognito machine, and yet you have more to say than anyone else regarding how it should/shouldn't or does/doesn't work.

With specific reference to which bug do you call the beta testing methodology into question? I am still waiting to hear what about the ATR swap button does not work as intended. If you think the return of a 'button disable' feature would be useful, please say so instead of trying to be a smart-arse. As for the offer of help with future testing: I don't really have much use for beta testers whose primary objective appears to be showboating on public forums and in so doing reducing the signal to noise ratio of any discourse to completely unbearable levels.

I'd call it corporate bullshit.

 

As said: if someone can tell me if I am being asked to implement a button deactivation feature or informed of a bug which prevents the swap feature from working, please let me know. Some of you will already be aware that I have tuned out some of the most billowing gas-bags on the forum (although quoted content remains an unwelcome reminder of their existence), but since even a stopped clock is right twice a day, I remain open to suggestions regardless of their source.

 

Since you seem to drive pleasure out of word-mincing / warping & passive-aggression, let's try to address your hysteria objectively:

 

1. My .ATR switch has been installed since 2013, in the exact same location (and it works perfectly). These images have been on this forum, for YEARS:

 

2. I've never advocated NOT installing the .ATR switch. On the contrary, and as it rests on this thread, I STRONGLY suggested to install it, especially if it was non-invasively (which it can perfectly done, if it is meant to be later relocated).

 

3. However, I've never recommended MoBo / Power-Board drilling, trace-cutting and any of that *crap* just for the sake of installing that switch. If you don't like that notion or that idea, or it if sounds foreign to you, that is your problem (not mine).

 

4. The . ATR switch can be tested INSIDE and OUTSIDE of SIDE/Loader screen. However, it is outside of it where it makes more meaningful sense. I checked the last few posts and could not find that simple idea suggested, already. 

 

5. There is no bug report I need to file, nor any feature enhancement that I've found or need to suggest regarding .ATR switch button. No need to fabricate one. This is irrelevant.

 

Once again, I would strongly suggest you to structure the Beta-testing / Feature-suggestion fronts, in order to keep your rhetorical arguing to a rationally minimum. It would help you a long way in chasing deeper bugs that you can't see today (as it has been proven, already) and making the current product even better than it is. And as I mentioned before, if you don't like this concept, well, that is again your problem.

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Faicuai

[flashjazzcat]

37 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

especially if it was non-invasively

LOL. You drilled a hole in the case. How non-invasive.

37 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

Power-Board drilling, trace-cutting and any of that *crap* just for the sake of installing that switch

Ah... so a good proportion of the installation steps described by Candle are considered 'crap'. Really constructive.

40 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

There is no bug report I need to file, nor any feature enhancement that I've found or need to suggest regarding .ATR switch button.

40 minutes ago, Faicuai said:

Once again, I would strongly suggest you to structure the Beta-testing / Feature-suggestion fronts, in order to keep your rhetorical arguing to a rationally minimum. It would help you a long way in chasing deeper bugs that you can't see today (as it has been proven, already) and making the current product even better than it is.

Which is it? Is there a bug or not? On what are you basing your critique of the existing beta testing/feature request registration methodology? All I hear is: there is no bug report, but beta-testing should be improved. There is no feature request, but the methods of registering feature requests should be improved? Again: all you have to do is say 'I think I found a bug' or 'could you implement this'? That's how bugs get fixed and things are improved through successive versions.

1 hour ago, Tempest said:

Come on guys, stay on topic, be respectful, and know when to let things go.   I'm really starting to wonder about the mental health of some of our members. 

Is that 'some of our members' or 'one of our members'? I maintain a branch of firmware for the Incognito, so when someone insinuates that something is poorly implemented/doesn't work/is poorly tested, etc, I need to respond to it. Unfortunately the whole thing has been a complete waste of my time, since the user in question - after all the foregoing - has no bug report and no feature request. It appears he just likes to insinuate that things are poorly designed or tested but when asked for specifics can provide nothing at all. This is a waste of my time.

 

If the implication is that I am contributing to disruption or derailing of the thread, I'm perfectly happy to put the whole thing on ignore, and likewise ignore any bug reports or feature requests lodged in this thread, regardless of whether they are from already ignored users or otherwise.

[Tempest]

4 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said:

Is that 'some of our members' or 'one of our members'?

At this point, I'm honestly not sure.  You should see the stuff we deal with on a daily basis.

 

I'm not calling anyone out specifically.  I think the people to whom this applies to know who they are, and if not they will soon learn.   Let's leave it at that shall we?

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, Faicuai said:

 

Since you seem to drive pleasure out of word-mincing / warping & passive-aggression, let's try to address your hysteria objectively:

 

1. My .ATR switch has been installed since 2013, in the exact same location (and it works perfectly). These images have been on this forum, for YEARS:

 

2. I've never advocated NOT installing the .ATR switch. On the contrary, and as it rests on this thread, I STRONGLY suggested to install it, especially if it was non-invasively (which it can perfectly done, if it is meant to be later relocated).

 

3. However, I've never recommended MoBo / Power-Board drilling, trace-cutting and any of that *crap* just for the sake of installing that switch. If you don't like that notion or that idea, or it if sounds foreign to you, that is your problem (not mine).

 

You call an invisible internal mod *crap* yet you drilled a hole in the virgin 800 case?!?  How is that reversible?  How is that non-invasive?

[Faicuai]

34 minutes ago, Stephen said:

You call an invisible internal mod *crap* yet you drilled a hole in the virgin 800 case?!?  How is that reversible?  How is that non-invasive?

 

Here, the whole sentence (since the habitual chopping / warping sentences for argumentative-sake does not really help):

 

" ... (which it can perfectly done, if it is meant to be later relocated). "

 

Mine was a permanent and final install, never to be relocated (there was no point for me doing so, as I understood the value of switching .ATR images from early on). Other folks here, have pointed out their wish to do so (relocate), and alternative solutions have been suggested.

 

One of the fundamental reasons for NOT openly suggesting the power-board's physical mod for the .ATR switch is that, in the event that anyone decides to upgrade or fully replace the power-board for a new one (and current one has been physically modified for Incognito's .ATR switch), you will have to then replicate / port such changes on the new board. And that is far from ideal, of course.

 

By relocating the .ATR switch button somewhere else, instead, this issue will be completely avoided.

 

It should be clear by now, hopefully.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Faicuai

[+Stephen]

What is not clear to me, and there is no word mincing going on - you explicitly asked people to NOT modify 800s in any way because they are deemed to be sacred.  You advocated for NOT installing Incognitos in mint or near mint 800s for I assume the same reason.  You derided many times John's placement of the switch in the power light because he cut a trace and drilled a hole in an internal PCB.  You deride any mod which is irreversible.

 

Then you destroy the entire argument by doing the unthinkable.  You drilled a hole in the case of the nicest 8-bit Atari produced.

 

It's the "say one thing, do the opposite" that I simply cannot understand.  It should be clear now, hopefully.

[+slx]

I don't have the feeling this argument is leading anywhere elevating or productive. Can't we just leave/modify/hack up our Ataris as we each see fit without proselytizing? To each his own and the more hacked up the others' Ataris, the more valuable those of the anti-hacking/drilling/etc. faculty will become.

 

[Tempest]

Agreed.  Please drop it or take it elsewhere.  

[Jeffrey Worley]

4 hours ago, Stephen said:

You call an invisible internal mod *crap* yet you drilled a hole in the virgin 800 case?!?  How is that reversible?  How is that non-invasive?

Lame installation.  Where are the lights.  No blinkin' lights, and no 'LASER' s.  Fie on thy ATR swap button without 'LASER' s.

 

 

[+Philsan]

I asked Lotharek why some boards don't have JTAG header.

He replied that only first 50 units have it.

[Faicuai]

1 hour ago, Philsan said:

I asked Lotharek why some boards don't have JTAG header.

He replied that only first 50 units have it.

 

Ironically, it does not seem you got your question answered. Instead, a description of the shipments, but not the reason WHY the remaining boards are not coming equipped with the connector.

 

Fortunately, there is a solution (from Amazon), which I had already ordered quite a while ago (but you will have to wait a bit for it):

 

https://www.amazon.com/Pitch-Straight-Angle-Connector-Headers/dp/B00O9Y7ASS/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=B00O9Y7ASS&qid=1573774108&sr=8-1

 

I do hope, however, not to find the mind-boggling surprise I found on the last (white) Ultimate-1MB board I purchased: when you try to read existing CPLD config., Impact shows "read-operation is locked / blocked" or "configureD as write-only". In other words, I could not save the existing programming before flashing the new one.

 

We'll see, once the JTAG header is soldered in place, and attempt to read existing CPLD code.

 

[AtariGeezer]

Years ago when zaxon made the Side1 Carts, he didn't install the JTAG header either and just programmed them with wires sitting in the thru-holes.  I ended up buying 10 headers on ebay for dirt cheap to install in those...