jnharmon Posted August 26, 2019 Share Posted August 26, 2019 Does anyone who has already done it have a recommendation on the physical placement of an Ultimate 1M in a 600XL? I recently upgraded a stock NTSC 600XL with a UAV and 64K and just received the U1M board, and am looking for suggestions/photos of people's installations. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Forum member @flashjazzcat has a wide variety of hardware upgrade videos for various machines, including a U1MB install in a 600XL, if I recall correctly. I believe he has it mounted toward the read on a pair of mounting posts above the PBI connector. I think he uses a single existing hole through the RF shield "border" on the PCB and drills a second (being sure to avoid any traces on either side of the board, of course!). Check his Youtube channel (same username) and this series on his "Maxed Out 600XL" series. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnharmon Posted August 27, 2019 Author Share Posted August 27, 2019 Thanks, I'll check that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnharmon Posted August 27, 2019 Author Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) I got it installed and it works, but I don't see any way to make it physically fit in the case as the new vertical ribbon cable connectors are way to tall to fit under the 600XL keyboard. It looks like the cable ends on mine are taller than the one in the video. About the only two things I can think of are removing the RF modulator and trying to put it in that spot or removing the ribbon cable connectors and soldering the ribbon cable directly to the U1M board. Advise from who has anyone who has solved this problem would be appreciated. Edited August 27, 2019 by jnharmon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR> Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 You could just replace the ribbon ends with the low profile type. Those are way too tall! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) I use the mounting positions specified by Candle back when he would ask which machine the board was going in and provide ribbon cables of exactly the optimal length. Nowadays this means trimming the supplied ribbon cables but the locations Candle recommended make sense and I haven't seen any reason to change them unless some other upgrade is obstructing the usual spot (see my 800XL Rapidus/U1MB videos). I'm actually missing an 800XL installation video using the optimal position (without Rapidus), but that will be rectified this week. As for the height: if you watch the 600XL videos properly, you'll see that everything can fit, even with strain relief clips in place. All that's needed is some judicious filing. I can't really make much out from the photo but the board looks a little high to start with. The RTC battery should be sitting right on top of the connector that's plugged into the OS ROM socket. Edit: just checked and I don't cover reassembly of the 600XL case, but it was sufficient to file the front corners of the IDC connectors to allow the keyboard to fit, IIRC. Another option is removing strain relief clips entirely. If things are still too high after that, the board needs lowering or is too far forward, simple as that. Edited August 27, 2019 by flashjazzcat 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnharmon Posted August 27, 2019 Author Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) 8 hours ago, JR> said: You could just replace the ribbon ends with the low profile type. Those are way too tall! 7 hours ago, flashjazzcat said: I use the mounting positions specified by Candle back when he would ask which machine the board was going in and provide ribbon cables of exactly the optimal length. Nowadays this means trimming the supplied ribbon cables but the locations Candle recommended make sense and I haven't seen any reason to change them unless some other upgrade is obstructing the usual spot (see my 800XL Rapidus/U1MB videos). I'm actually missing an 800XL installation video using the optimal position (without Rapidus), but that will be rectified this week. As for the height: if you watch the 600XL videos properly, you'll see that everything can fit, even with strain relief clips in place. All that's needed is some judicious filing. I can't really make much out from the photo but the board looks a little high to start with. The RTC battery should be sitting right on top of the connector that's plugged into the OS ROM socket. Edit: just checked and I don't cover reassembly of the 600XL case, but it was sufficient to file the front corners of the IDC connectors to allow the keyboard to fit, IIRC. Another option is removing strain relief clips entirely. If things are still too high after that, the board needs lowering or is too far forward, simple as that. Right after I posted this, I trimmed the standoff a bit more under as you suggested, the battery holder is resting on the cable adapter below it. It is still about 3/4cm too tall to fit. I think JR is spot on here. The ribbon cable connector (the piece on the cable) is far too tall. It appears to be a higher profile piece than the one shown in your video. Any suggestions on where to find a lower profile connector? I've done a few searches and am not coming up with anything useful. Edited August 27, 2019 by jnharmon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 simply removing the 'strain relief' snap overs should do it. I all honesty this is an internal upgrade and it is doubtful anyone is going to be brushing up against them or tugging on them etc... low profiles connectors are the other choice. The reason they went with the current config was to make it easy to plug in to a number of rebuild projects... The ribbon cable IDC connector pins can be replaced with angled ones again if the available choices will not suit the machine for installation... but you run the risk of damaging the pcb like the handful of those project builders did. The current config makes it slightly more difficult across the line. Not much else to do... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mclaneinc Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) Any reason why right angled plugs / sockets (whatever your choice of name) were not used? They are out there and not too expensive.. Edited August 27, 2019 by Mclaneinc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 35 minutes ago, jnharmon said: Right after I posted this, I trimmed the standoff a bit more under as you suggested, the battery holder is resting on the cable adapter below it. It is still about 3/4cm too tall to fit. I think JR is spot on here. The ribbon cable connector (the piece on the cable) is far too tall. It appears to be a higher profile piece than the one shown in your video. Any suggestions on where to find a lower profile connector? I've done a few searches and am not coming up with anything useful. There is obviously more clearance on the 800XL, thus can't be directly compared, but here's a reference of how I arranged it for firmness and fitness on that particular spot (similar to 600XL but recessed further-back): 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnharmon Posted August 27, 2019 Author Share Posted August 27, 2019 23 minutes ago, Mclaneinc said: Any reason why right angled plugs / sockets (whatever your choice of name) were not used? They are out there and not too expensive.. The board is as it came from Lotharek. It does look like other versions of the board did have right angle connectors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, jnharmon said: It appears to be a higher profile piece than the one shown in your video. It's the same connector as the board shown in my video. Unfortunately you've mounted the U1MB in a totally different place. Mine straddles the PBI connector with standoffs at either side of the board edge connector. Yours is an inch in from the back of the machine, hence the clearance issue. Sorry: was looking at the 800XL photos. Edited August 27, 2019 by flashjazzcat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnharmon Posted August 27, 2019 Author Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: It's the same connector as the board shown in my video. Unfortunately you've mounted in a totally different place. Mine straddles the PBI connector with standoffs at either side of the board edge connector. Yours is an inch in from the back of the machine, hence the clearance issue. Hmm. If you look at the U1M screw hole as a reference, it actually isn't anywhere near an inch from the back. The mounting hole on mine was drilled just at the top of the J2 label where the red dot it shown below. It might be about 1/8 of an inch more forward than yours, and a bit more towards the SIO port, but not very much. If the angle of the XL keyboard is about 25 degrees, being 1/8 of an inch forward would reduce overhead clearance to the keyboard by (1/8 inch) * TAN(25 deg), or about .058 inches compared to your install. Some, but not enough alone to account for the issue. I think the combination of the relief strap and the cable going over the top of the strap probably add enough to account for the issue. Edited August 27, 2019 by jnharmon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faicuai Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 (edited) 25 minutes ago, jnharmon said: Hmm. If you look at the U1M screw hole as a reference, it actually isn't anywhere near an inch from the back. The mounting hole on mine was drilled just at the top of the J2 label where the red dot it shown below. It might be about 1/8 of an inch more forward than yours, and a bit more towards the SIO port, but not very much. If the angle of the XL keyboard is about 25 degrees, being 1/8 of an inch forward would reduce overhead clearance to the keyboard by (1/8 inch) * TAN(25 deg), or about .058 inches compared to your install. Some, but not enough alone to account for the issue. I think the combination of the relief strap and the cable going over the top of the strap probably add enough to account for the issue. Exactly what I thought after looking at your pics xN times... HOWEVER, forgot to mention something critical (thanks God you did): the release relief/release strap on top of the right-side ribbon-connector HAD to be removed on both my 800XLs installs. In that case, I ensured proper / lax clearance for top-closure, as well as full retention of shields (except small shield cut-out to provide top-clearance). Then comes folding the cables wisely and carefully, to maximize top-and-sides clearance. Angled-connectors would be no-no, based on my experience. Edited August 27, 2019 by Faicuai 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 46 minutes ago, jnharmon said: If you look at the U1M screw hole as a reference, it actually isn't anywhere near an inch from the back. Read my edit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 27, 2019 Share Posted August 27, 2019 Right... back off the phone now and at a proper computer. What also might work is simply filing off the front corner of both strain-relief clips so that they clear the back edge of the keyboard. Failing that, take the clips off and it'll fit. I suppose there's some variation in keyboard depth on these machines. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnharmon Posted August 28, 2019 Author Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 21 hours ago, flashjazzcat said: Right... back off the phone now and at a proper computer. What also might work is simply filing off the front corner of both strain-relief clips so that they clear the back edge of the keyboard. Failing that, take the clips off and it'll fit. I suppose there's some variation in keyboard depth on these machines. I was able to get it to fit (just barely) by removing the strain-relief straps. There is still a bit of interference and without gentle pressure the case stays about 1/8" open on the right side. Gentle pressure is enough to get it to close all the way. I've yet to file off the corners of the connectors, but that will be my next step after new connectors arrive which will also allow me to shorten the cables (I didn't have luck in removing the existing connectors and didn't want to break them). This does make me wonder about your comments regarding variations in the keyboards. I'll take a few photos with measurements , especially of the thickness of the metal case enclosing the back side of the keyboard. Would be interesting to compare to others to see if there is a difference. Thanks, Jason Edited August 28, 2019 by jnharmon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 15 minutes ago, jnharmon said: This does make me wonder about your comments regarding variations in the keyboards. I do remember running into issues when I changed keyboards on my 600XL after the fact. I think I went from Alps to AWC or vice versa and it was definitely a tight squeeze. Not a lot of room in that 600XL. Glad you got the lid closed, anyway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 Somewhere here there’s a long and rather exhaustive thread on XL keyboard variants. I’m on my phone but a search will turn it up. There are like 6 versions known, I think. They do vary in construction and “depth” they protrude down into the system. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 https://atariage.com/forums/topic/105170-600800xl-keyboard-variants/ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnharmon Posted August 28, 2019 Author Share Posted August 28, 2019 14 minutes ago, flashjazzcat said: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/105170-600800xl-keyboard-variants/ Mine is the type 4 with the metal plate over the entire back of the board. Would be interesting to find out which variant gives the most clearance, assuming there is a measurable difference.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flashjazzcat Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 59 minutes ago, jnharmon said: Would be interesting to find out which variant gives the most clearance, assuming there is a measurable difference.. I think AWC or Alps are the shallowest, but both fit with U1MB given some persuasion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 simply put, adding a low profile socket on the mother board and low profile ribbon connectors without strain relief should make the most stubborn combination of keyboard and u1m work out fine... It's going to be fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnharmon Posted August 28, 2019 Author Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: simply put, adding a low profile socket on the mother board and low profile ribbon connectors without strain relief should make the most stubborn combination of keyboard and u1m work out fine... Thanks. Where can I find "low profile" connectors? I've haven't found any two row IDC connectors advertised as such? I have no problem soldering in a new connector on the U1M board, but I don't have the tools to properly de-solder the existing ones. Edited August 28, 2019 by jnharmon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc13 Posted August 28, 2019 Share Posted August 28, 2019 (edited) I was just working on this today and this is my planned location (RF modulator spot). I pulled an older U1MB from my 800xl that had right angle headers and swapped the smaller connector (at the back) with two rows of vertical pin headers (with the plastic bit underneath and the pin height adjusted so the connector made contact properly. As others mentioned, removing the strain relief on the connector was also required. I need to figure out another support standoff or two, but it looks like this might fit completely under the RF shield. Also, I'll likely have to modify the headers for the HLT/Reset, etc. lines since the supplied wires will stand too tall. Edited August 28, 2019 by jc13 added pix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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