Connecting Atari 800 XL to a modern TV

[tajvdz]

Hello,

 

Before I will concentrate on other things I want to find out what the best option is for conneting my Atari 800 Xl to a modern TV. My computer doensn't have any modifacation at all and is still in it's original state. In the old days I used the RF switch box but Now I want to concentrate on the Monitor connection on the back of the 800 XL. So far I used composite and that works just fine. I also used a compositi to HDM converter. That gives some problems but I will go into that later because I'm not done testing. I saw that there is also a possibility that Y/C will work but not on all devices. I bought the Atari 800 XL in januari 1985 in The Netherlands. What are my chances that it will work? Can I see it from the outside or is it easy to test? In 5 minutes I make a cable that connects the Y and C pin of the din connector with a s-vhs connector. I now have a din connector with on the other side 4 seperate plugs (one on each pin: audio, compostie, Y and C). Will both Y and C give a (deformed) signal if I connect them to the composite on my tv? I know at least one of the 2 does. My question is will both do that or the second only in combination with the other? Most imoprtant is will the Y/C give a much better signal than composite? When I use Y/C on a tv it will go to a s-vhs connector that I will plug into a scart adapter or s-vhs to HDMI converter.

 

These are my first questions about the connection, more will follow. Most imoprtant is do I have to take composite or Y/S as the base to continue with and how can I test if Y/C is actually working on my 800 XL. I also think I need a tv or converter with all scart pins connected...

 

By the way my main goal is to use the HDMI on my tv because I have a swicth box so I can switch to more tv's. Maybe I will also go for an option to modify my 800 Xl so it will have a DVI connector. I think that is the best. I saw that on youtube..

Edited December 5, 2019 by tajvdz

[xrbrevin]

SVHS is the best quality youll get from a standard machine however in the 800XL's case, the factory failed to include one of the connections at the monitor output socket. I think later models with the Freddie chip had this resolved but there is a simple guide to put it right and also to improve the quality of the picture.

 

Quote:

REMOVE C56 capacitor (if present)
Lift C54 right-hand side, preferably by inserting an on-off switch (if you want to preserve composite out).
On the underside of the motherboard, solder chroma-signal wire from R67/R68 junction, to chroma pin in video DIN port pin 5.
Adjust brightness/contrast/saturation on your monitor.

 

You can go further and fit various mod kits to get sharper quality - look up VBXE, Sophia and UAV if youre interested

[tajvdz]

1 hour ago, xrbrevin said:

SVHS is the best quality youll get from a standard machine however in the 800XL's case, the factory failed to include one of the connections at the monitor output socket. I think later models with the Freddie chip had this resolved but there is a simple guide to put it right and also to improve the quality of the picture.

 

Quote:

REMOVE C56 capacitor (if present)
Lift C54 right-hand side, preferably by inserting an on-off switch (if you want to preserve composite out).
On the underside of the motherboard, solder chroma-signal wire from R67/R68 junction, to chroma pin in video DIN port pin 5.
Adjust brightness/contrast/saturation on your monitor.

 

You can go further and fit various mod kits to get sharper quality - look up VBXE, Sophia and UAV if youre interested

Yes I was aware that some models missed one connection. But how can I check in a simple way if mine is connected or not?

Why do I need to insert an on-off switch? Isn't it possible to use both composite en s-vhs together because thay are on different pins of the monitor connector. I assumed it depended on the cable you use..

[xrbrevin]

i think SVHS display will be in monochrome if the mod is required. if it is colour then no mod is needed.

i only ever modded mine to be permanent SVHS only but from what i can gather the composite signal is also used to make up the SVHS signal so the switch is needed to change between each

[flashjazzcat]

6 minutes ago, tajvdz said:

Why do I need to insert an on-off switch? Isn't it possible to use both composite en s-vhs together because thay are on different pins of the monitor connector.

 

[tajvdz]

1 hour ago, xrbrevin said:

i think SVHS display will be in monochrome if the mod is required. if it is colour then no mod is needed.

i only ever modded mine to be permanent SVHS only but from what i can gather the composite signal is also used to make up the SVHS signal so the switch is needed to change between each

you mean the composite signal on the board? 

[Colleton]

Here's my limited understanding...

 

1.  The monitor port on the stock 800XL has a Luma signal present on pin 1, a composite video signal present on pin 4, and an audio signal on pin 3.  Ground is pin 2.

2.  The Chroma signal that should be present on pin 5 in order to get a Luma+Chroma S-Video signal output is not connected on the XL machines.  Apparently this saved Atari a few cents on each computer.  If you build an S-Video monitor cable without connecting the Chroma signal to pin 5 you'll only get a monochrome S-Video output.

 

If you aren't going to mod your machine you're stuck with composite video.  You can buy a composite->component adapter, but I don't know that that will look any better than the composite signal would.

 

What you really want (at a minimum) is an S-Video output, but to get that you'll need to either do the mod that xrbrevin listed above (the switch that xrbrevin mentions is so you can switch between composite and S-Video if desired) or to buy and install the Ultimate Atari Video (UAV) card.  I've installed a few of the UAV cards in my machines and the video quality is very good.  What I would recommend is that you buy and install a Sophia DVI or RGB video card.  I've done this on two of my XL machines and the video quality is amazing.  Good luck!

 

 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Colleton

[xrbrevin]

There is more info on the subject out there if you search the web.

The Atari uses the composite signal to generate the chroma signal for SVHS so the switch will allow you to choose between composite or SVHS, depending on what connection you have. If you have both, you ought to use SVHS as it has superior image quality, this is why i didnt bother with the switch as my screen has an SVHS input.

 

I have fitted 2x UAV devices - one to my 800XL and one to my 600XL. Both are great and simple enough to fit.

I believe the Sophia device provides HDMI output.

Both of the above items can be obtained from members of this forum, just do a search for these keywords and then PM the relevant member.

 

The VBXL/VBXE device provides RGB output and can be bought from Lotharek's site

 

However, you can get the SVHS up and running without having to order or wait, just get the soldering iron fired up! ?

[bfollowell]

1 hour ago, xrbrevin said:

I believe the Sophia device provides HDMI output.

No, there is an older Sophia that provides RGB output, and the rev.C that provides DVI output. There is no HDMI output. However, DVI and HDMI are both digital signals, so pretty much any DVI to HDMI adapter or cable should allow you to connect the Sophia rav.C DVI to an HDMI TV. That being said, it's a really finicky device and you have to pick the right resolution to get it to work with the most displays. I've found that the 1280x1024 resolution seems to be one of the most compatible with different displays. I originally tried the 1536x960 resolution and tried it with ten different displays in my home, a combination of TVs and monitors, and never found a single one that it would work with. I eventually had to re-flash to the 1280x1024 core and it worked perfectly with every one of my displays.

[tajvdz]

Thank you all for the info. I have to think what to do and get back to that later. For now I will give an update of what I tested this evening. Like I said I have a monitor cable that has composite connected and audio (goes from the audio pin to 2 connectors for left and right channel. I ordered and tested 3 composite to HDMI converters / upscalers. The result differs a lot of which programm / game I start but they all have iddues asnd the quality is less than when I connect composite directly to my TV or use a scart connector where I put the composite and audio in. Does someone know if there are converters that do well? I saw some on youtube but I can't see which ones they use..  The cheapest one is the mini AV2HDMI. That one fails to give a good signal. plugging out the composite and put it back in will work after a few times. The second one has composite, scart and s-vhs inpit. The quality is about the same as the first one but isn't failing. The most expensive one didn't work at all.

Back to the s-vhs signal. I used another cable that has 4 connectors connected with each pin. I enclosed a picture of it. The white connector has the audio, black is composite. This works the sasme like my other cable but only gives sound on one channel of course. The green connector has the luminace (pin 1). If I plug this in instead of composite it gives a deformed picture. When I plug the red connector (Chroma / pin 5) in instead of composite nothing happens. Does this mean that inside the 800 XL pin 5 is not connected at all? Or doesn't chroma alone at composite give a signal at all? According to this what do I have to do to make it work? I saw some examples but they confuse me. I want to try the easiest way. And my tv doesn't have a direct s-vhs input. I have to use a scart adapter with s-vhs input and i have to make a cable with 2 female connectors on 1 side and s-vhs connector on the other side. I found cable with s-vhs on both sides so I have to cut one connector off and put 2 female connectors on that I can connect with the cable in the picture. That is only for testing. If it works I will make a proper cable. But is it all worth trying then? I mean does that work on all tv's? I mean s-vhs connector in a scart adapter (like in picture)?

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by tajvdz
type errors, added a 2nd photo

[Colleton]

6 hours ago, tajvdz said:

Thank you all for the info. I have to think what to do and get back to that later. For now I will give an update of what I tested this evening. Like I said I have a monitor cable that has composite connected and audio (goes from the audio pin to 2 connectors for left and right channel. I ordered and tested 3 composite to HDMI converters / upscalers. The result differs a lot of which programm / game I start but they all have iddues asnd the quality is less than when I connect composite directly to my TV or use a scart connector where I put the composite and audio in. Does someone know if there are converters that do well? I saw some on youtube but I can't see which ones they use..  The cheapest one is the mini AV2HDMI. That one fails to give a good signal. plugging out the composite and put it back in will work after a few times. The second one has composite, scart and s-vhs inpit. The quality is about the same as the first one but isn't failing. The most expensive one didn't work at all.

Back to the s-vhs signal. I used another cable that has 4 connectors connected with each pin. I enclosed a picture of it. The white connector has the audio, black is composite. This works the sasme like my other cable but only gives sound on one channel of course. The green connector has the luminace (pin 1). If I plug this in instead of composite it gives a deformed picture. When I plug the red connector (Chroma / pin 5) in instead of composite nothing happens. Does this mean that inside the 800 XL pin 5 is not connected at all? Or doesn't chroma alone at composite give a signal at all? According to this what do I have to do to make it work? I saw some examples but they confuse me. I want to try the easiest way. And my tv doesn't have a direct s-vhs input. I have to use a scart adapter with s-vhs input and i have to make a cable with 2 female connectors on 1 side and s-vhs connector on the other side. I found cable with s-vhs on both sides so I have to cut one connector off and put 2 female connectors on that I can connect with the cable in the picture. That is only for testing. If it works I will make a proper cable. But is it all worth trying then? I mean does that work on all tv's? I mean s-vhs connector in a scart adapter (like in picture)?

 

 

I've used these converters with very good results.  Both take composite, s-video, audio and HDMI inputs and produce an HDMI output at up to 1080P at 50 or 60 HZ.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UNYX9M/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A7B0YZI/

 

They both work very well for me and are relatively inexpensive.  

 

As for s-video, yes, the chroma signal is not connected to pin 5 on the monitor jack on the XL computers.  You need to run a wire for the chroma signal to pin 5 on the monitor jack yourself.  The mod instructions that xrbrevin listed above tell you how to do this.

[tajvdz]

1 hour ago, Colleton said:

I've used these converters with very good results.  Both take composite, s-video, audio and HDMI inputs and produce an HDMI output at up to 1080P at 50 or 60 HZ.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004UNYX9M/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A7B0YZI/

 

They both work very well for me and are relatively inexpensive.  

 

As for s-video, yes, the chroma signal is not connected to pin 5 on the monitor jack on the XL computers.  You need to run a wire for the chroma signal to pin 5 on the monitor jack yourself.  The mod instructions that xrbrevin listed above tell you how to do this.

ok. I will look at these. But Is the quality of the picture about the same as composite directly to the tv? I see a lot of difference. I didn't expect that after reading about it and watching some clips on youtube. I can post some pictures of mine of that helps? 

 

Is the way xrbrevin explains the best one? I see different methods. Is there a youtube clip about it? I have no clue how to do it with the switch...

[E474]

Hi,

 

   Has anyone had any luck making a 5 pin DIN (PAL) -> EuroSCART cable? I think it's described in the Atari FAQ, but I haven't tried making one, and I was just curious if anyone had put one together already?

[tajvdz]

4 hours ago, E474 said:

Hi,

 

   Has anyone had any luck making a 5 pin DIN (PAL) -> EuroSCART cable? I think it's described in the Atari FAQ, but I haven't tried making one, and I was just curious if anyone had put one together already?

why not use a scart connector that I posted above? 

But do you want to use it for composite and audio or s-vhs and audio or both? In other words how many pins in the DIN you want to use?

 

Edited December 6, 2019 by tajvdz

[E474]

Hi,

 

    It's more that I have a 5 pin DIN connector, and a SCART cable in hand, and want to assemble them. My TV has SCART, HDMI and component Audio/Video (5 leads), so I thought the simplest thing would be making a 5 pin DIN -> SCART cable. Something similar to:

 

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/atari-8-bit-composite-video-scart-cable-for-800xl-65xe-130xe-800xlf-1400xl-1450xld-1200xl

 

There is brief discussion in:

 

 

And it looks like a simple project, but I was wondering if anyone had any tips or had tried it?

 

[tajvdz]

10 hours ago, E474 said:

Hi,

 

    It's more that I have a 5 pin DIN connector, and a SCART cable in hand, and want to assemble them. My TV has SCART, HDMI and component Audio/Video (5 leads), so I thought the simplest thing would be making a 5 pin DIN -> SCART cable. Something similar to:

 

https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/atari-8-bit-composite-video-scart-cable-for-800xl-65xe-130xe-800xlf-1400xl-1450xld-1200xl

 

There is brief discussion in:

 

 

And it looks like a simple project, but I was wondering if anyone had any tips or had tried it?

 

No I didn't try it. I used a 5 pin DIN cable and I connected 3 seperate plugs on the other side. I can use them to connect on my TV or I use a scart adapter. Like I said above, so far I only used the composite. The problem described in the other post with the low soind I don't have. But I don't have a NTSC machine, mine is Pal

 

I'm still trying to find out if s-vhs is workingwith the 2 pins in thr DIN i didn't use. For testing I use the cable I showed above. That cable only has 1 audio channel. By the way I'm not that keen on making modifications but I'm more like using plug and play solutions. That is why I asked if there is a video on youtube showing the simplest way to connect the missing chroma pin and adding the switch.

Edited December 7, 2019 by tajvdz

[tajvdz]

I made this cable. I can connect it to the cable I posted above so I will get a s-vhs plug. I was wrong. One of my tv's has a s-vhs input. When I use the cable with luminance and chroma connected to the s-vhs plug I get the same result as when I put the lumince cable into the composite input. The picture isn't monochrom but it is way too red, like it cotains an extra red glow or something. Like I said before the chroma cable in composite does nothing. Does this mean that in my computer the chroma pin is not connected?

Edited December 8, 2019 by tajvdz

[tajvdz]

can someone explain the difference between the method XRBREVIN gives and this one?

Did somone test both? My question is which one should I use. I'm not that good with this so the most simple one (with best result of course) I will use.

 

Like I said above, I have a cable that has chroma and luminance connected to a s-vhs plug. It doesn't give a monochrome picture bit it is more red than composite. The same happens when I put chroma in the composite connection. luminance does nothing in composite. Does this mean I have to modify my computer? If so I want to know which of the 2 methods I can use best... And is there another way to test if this will work?

Edited December 9, 2019 by tajvdz

[xrbrevin]

are you aware of the colour trimpot, accessible via a small hole on the underside?

its worth having a go at dialling it in, it will either improve the image or help diagnose

[tajvdz]

8 hours ago, xrbrevin said:

are you aware of the colour trimpot, accessible via a small hole on the underside?

its worth having a go at dialling it in, it will either improve the image or help diagnose

i see a small hole in the right bottom on the underside. I can always try. But is this better than connecting the missing pin?  And is it for composite or s-vhs? I'm still a bit confused about what to do. 

 

Is there a picture or video about the modification with the switch / missing pin?

[xrbrevin]

with the atari turned on, turn the trimpot with a small flat-blade screwdriver. it was provided by the manufacturer for retailers to fine tune the colour output. i vaguely recall the atari could go out of adjustment during transit, or was it due to differing regions? im cant rightly remember. you cant do any damage so give it a try, just make a note of the original position if you are concerned. youll get the jist of it and it may just dial your machine in nicely.

 

here is the only pic i have of the missing pin

 

 

p.s. you can see the trimpot hole in this image at bottom-right

Edited December 9, 2019 by xrbrevin

[tajvdz]

sorry, but all these posts confuse me a lot. what is the most simple way to test if s-vhs will work? I know some basic stuff but I'm not a technician.

 

Is the trimpot only for the s-vhs signal or also composite? Composite works just fine. S-vhs looks worse.. But is this caused by the missing pin?

 

About the modification (if needed), Can someone post a picture how it looks like with a swicth? And why you have to remove C56 capacitor if you want to add something? This isn't logical for me.

 

What confuses me the most is this article:

 

 

 

Does this solve the missing pin or what? What is the difference? Did someone else try it?

 

Sorry I'm a newbie who wants to understand. Composite works fine but I want to see the difference with s-vhs...

[Gunstar]

Honestly the S-VHS isn't all that much better than composite unless you modify the video with the Clearpic 2001(2?)or Super Video 2.1 modifications. If you do these, then the improvement is vast. Also, about the video switch, even if you do one of the S-video/S-VHS mods, the switch is important as there is some signal bleed-over from composite to S-video/S-VHS* without it and the switch will turn off composite completely for a better image without the signal bleed. I disconnected my RF modulator (which also causes signal bleed/interference) and used it's channel switch for the composite/S-video switch. The reason for keeping composite as an option at all, and not just disconnecting it, is really only useful for NTSC machines to get proper artifact colors for high-res games that take advantage of artifact colors. For PAL machines disconnecting RF and composite all together is the best option for the cleanest S-VHS with no signal-bleed interference, since artifact colors don't work on PAL machines anyway.

 

If you don't want too, or don't know how to do any modifications, whether DIY ones I mentioned, or ones you purchase and install, then composite is your best option. Or get an 800 or XE machine with good S-video/S-VHS (chroma/luma-Y/C) as stock. Of course there is still some composite/RF signal bleed so disconnecting them is always a good option for the cleanest S-video/S-VHS image.

 

*S-VHS=S-Video=chroma/luma=Y/C (all different names for the same thing)

Edited December 12, 2019 by Gunstar

[bfollowell]

In addition to what Gunstar said, the thread title is looking for ways to connect to a modern TV. I'm not sure about the rest of the world, or brands other than Samsung and LG, but I haven't seen a Samsung or LG television produced in the last ten years for the U.S. market that came with S-VHS inputs. If you want something that is going to help your connect to a modern TV, you need to look into a Sophia DVI mod, which you can then use with a DVI to HDMI cable to hook up to a modern TV. If you want to investigate this route, you probably need to look into getting a Sophia that is setup for 1280x1024 as that seems to be one of the more compatible resolutions.

 

Another option, one of the best but most expensive, is going to be an OSSC v1.6. It allows many different types of inputs and will output to HDMI.

 

There is also a Sophia RGB video mod and a VBXL XL RGB mod, one which just gives RGB output and one which is a major graphic upgrade for the XL with RGB output. However, both of these will still require some additional piece of machinery to get the RGB signal to display on your modern television as I've never seen a television with an RGB input, at least in the U.S.

 

The main thing I want to get across is that, if you want to hook up to a modern television, you need to be looking into options that will allow you to output into modern display standards, mainly HDMI. For most televisions, looking into S-VHS mods is a complete waste of time without also looking into something like an OSSC.

 

 

[tajvdz]

sorry I was a bit busy and also started using a Sdrive Max. But I must say that with composite I get a reasonable result. better than the old RF switch I used before. 

I will make the changes to the Atari later so that I can test the S-vhs signal as well. But I need one advise for now. Is it better to make 2 cables, one with audio and S-vhs plug and one with audio and composite plug. Or make just one with audio, composite and S-vhs plug? 

I'm also still interested to see the result of the switch that has to be placed inside the Atari. And I also still don't understand why you have to remove a component to add a function...