Atari ST vs. Amiga

HiroProX · January 27, 2010

Where could you get a 4MB machine in Fall 1987 for under $2500?

A2000 with a RAM upgrade. In 1987 A2000's had a MSRP of $1500, which leaves a hair under a grand for extra RAM.

The MegaST4 was a groundbreaking machine, but like the 1040ST, all Atari had going for them was a big stock RAM configuration, a lead that as DRAM prices dropped made stock RAM configurations less and less of an overriding concern.

Edited January 27, 2010 by HiroProX

frogstar_robot · January 27, 2010

What about Linux?

You'd still be running it on a platform evloved from IBM's 1981 standard, but it would have nothing to do with MS Windows. (andbesides, Macs now use that same architecture, can run PC OSs natively, and you can even get OSX to run on a PC -very carefully )

True but only if you're running it on an x86 or x64 Mac/PC. I ran it quite productively on a 400Mhz Pismo Powerbook. I was even able to virtualize both OS X and OS 9 VERY well on it. Mac-On-Linux worked better than "Classic Environment" did at the time in that if it messed up the brain damage was confined to window OS 9 was running in rather than fubaring the primary desktop in interesting ways. PowerPC at the time had virtualization features that are only now becoming mainstream on Intel/AMD. I loved that laptop but time and progress left it behind.

There are all sorts of interesting MIPS and ARM hardware that runs it. That will be interesting to watch in the coming years.

+wood_jl · January 27, 2010

The whole "32 or 64-bit looking" this is total BS, you can't really judge by that alone, I mean look at all the games running on 32-bit PCs. (besides, if you go by CPU, the Dreamcast, Xbox, and GC/Wii are all 32-bit systems). You could have a really powerful system with dedicated busses and advanced graphics hardware with a realtively weak CPU and still have a powerful system. (like if the PlayStation used a 16 MHz 68000, game engines would have suffered -and any software rendering would go down the tubes, but it would still "look" "32-bit" and push textured mapped polygons just the same -GTE and GPU should be just as effective) I mean, does Jazz Jackrabbit look "32 bit?" (you could barely play that on a 386 system at the lowest settings)

It's not total BS - it's somewhat BS. Of course there's no absolute relation to "number of bits" and graphical prowess. The advertising dept got ahold of "bits" with the Sega Genesis. The "bitness" of games was always a reference to game consoles, not PCs for which the reference would be meaningless. However, most Master System, NES, and even 7800 games have a similar level of detail and are perceived as representative of the 8-bit generation. Most Super Nintendo and Genesis games are somewhat similar in graphical complexity, and are perceived representative of the 16-bit. Likewise for the Playstation and Saturn for "32-bit generation." The point is that most Jaguar games - on the system that touted "it's number of bits" like nothing since the original Genesis - don't appear any more graphically complex than the SNES/Genesis and many appear considerably inferior, say nothing of a PS/Saturn comparison; the games failed to impress.

Yes it is, look at the 8-bit consoles, would you say the VCS, Colecovision, 5200, SG-1000 (Japan), Famicom/NES, 7800, Master System, and PC Engine/TG 16 are all in the same generation? (all 8-bit CPUs, and all either Z80 or 650x -albeit enhanced in the PCE's case and quite fast)

Plus bring the N64 into that, compare the Saturn, N64, and PSX, they all reasonably apear to be of the same generation (the 5th generation), the N64 doesn't have anything really huge over the Playstation, there's filtering (which some despise -and I don't but still think is overused) plus the framerate and draw distance are sometimes worse on N64 versions compared to PSX (and sometimes Saturn) counterparts, the perspective corrected texturesand AA were good (still some twitching at times), the Z-buffer was nice too. (some games even seem to drop to the Z-buffer representation for far distance -like in Episode 1 Racer)

Then Again, Nintendo crippled the system by limiting support for the programmable RSP microcode. (not initially supporting it, then providing limited tools to some developers, but still not freely offereing the "turbo 3D" microcode they already had -lower accuracy polygons with far higher poly rates)

And look at the 3DO, it does have soem stuff that looks somewhat comperable to PSX or Saturn stuff (albeit so does the Jag), but often looks fairly weak as well. (in fact, it might have done better with just a 68000 as the CPU had the GPU not had to fight over work RAM as it does -then again, Doom would probably look even worse as the hardware is emphesized for 3D point calculation -a coprocessor rather like the GTE plus the GPU with gouraud shading affine mapping and quadrilateral rasterization -not triangles unfortunately)

Yes, that is true, good points. However, such usage, however inaccurate, probably isn't going away. What is important is just understanding what people - however technically handicapped - are trying to say. All I am pointing out is "what people commonly mean" when they talk about "bitness" and graphics. For the sake of discussion, If you were around in the days when the Sega Genesis (and SNES) came out (as well as when the ST and Amiga came out), "16-bit" was used to identify the Genesis/SNES generation. Those were the popular ones. Doesn't matter what else "had 16-bits" because that's what all the idiots meant. What everyone had JUST been playing beforehand was the NES, Master System, 7800. Those, while 8-bit all the time, suddenly became "8-bit" to distinguish them. What was relevant at the time - as always - was what was popular. Sure, the Fairchild Channel F is 8-bit as well, so was the VCS. They weren't popular at the time the 16-bits came out like NES (etc) so when the f___king idiots referred to "8-bit" generation, they weren't trying to enter a technical debate; they were talking about "the last generation". With 32-bits it was Saturn/PSX because they had the market share. When people talk about "32-bit generation" they mean these, because they were popular. So the term didn't fit the N64. So what; it's a stupid term anyway. So the term doesn't fit the Jaguar. So what; it's a stupid term anyway. So what about the 3DO; those weren't popular. Nobody even knows what those are anymore (talking about general population). I'm not defending the term - it's going to be used forevermore. What's important is that you understand what people mean, however technically imprecise. What's not important is going around trying to correct everyone in every instance; you'd have to devote your life to correcting every idiot in existance and it would take more than you, so what's the point? Either you can "get this" and comprehend whatever the hell the bastards are trying to say to you and move on, or you can pretend to not understand in "technical objection" and engage in a protracted, pointless, and certainly unrewarding demonstration against it.

+wood_jl · January 27, 2010

The Jag never had the equivalent of Saturn's VF2/Sega Rally etc to revitalise the potential purchasers....people keep quoting some simple plinky plonk shit reamake of a game for Jag as being one of the best...but really you would do the machine a huge favour NOT mentioning either the products of that sick weirdo or that basic looking game. To be quite honest putting World Tour Racing on Jag next to F1 for Nintendo64 side by side shows you just what IS possible with some technical skill and open minded attitude to what can be implemented.
Atari Corp management seems to have crippled the machine, rusing it out with bugs, forcing the 68k into it (when it really doesn't work well, limiting Jerry to 1/2 width, hogging the shared bus, etc -an EC020 would have really helped in such a cacheless single bus design), then there's the pittance of development tools which didn't help either, then the marketting, and limited overall budget (ellivated by winning the Sega lawsuit in mid 1994), it was jsut a mess overall. There were a decent number of developers interested initially, but most moved on due to the poor support provided to address the problems combined with the low market share and attractive competition. (PSX was the polar opposite, very freindly development environmnet, cheap/high capacity CD media, and a compnay with deep pockets clearly pouring a ton into marketing -and price dumping more or less)
Again, I have no idea how Jack would have hendeled things in terms of games (he probably whould have pushed the computer line a bit longer though), same for Michael Katz in terms of marketing. (both stepped down around the same time I think, Katz moved on to Sega in 89 and Jack went into retirement a bit earlier I think)

Are you sure that Atari Corp even had anything to do with the design? "Forcing the 68k into it???" So you mean the original design did not include a 68k, Atari insisted, and they went back to the drawing board? You have proof of this?

One has to wonder if the Tramiels had any understanding of the videogame market at all. Canning the 7800 when it was a hot property (1984). Releasing the XEGS in 1987, with games that boasted of 1983 copyright right on the title screen. Releasing totally antique games to compete with innovative new Japanese titles. [Donkey Kong was a big release on 7800 - in 1988!!!] Releasing the Jaguar with 3 buttons in the age of Mortal Kombat, when SNES had 4 + shoulder buttons and Genesis had doubled their controller buttons to 6. Jack would have likely canned the whole thing earlier, which probably would have saved the company money.

+wood_jl · January 27, 2010

What is Tempest 2000? It's some basic looking very simple game, hardly looking different to some obscure original arcade game from way back (certainly Tempest has been played less than anything made by Konami or Capcom as far as arcades go) and nor is it mentioned in the same breath as Pacman, Asteroids, Donkey Kong and Galaxian. Please....some weirdo breathed over some colour vector graphic game he likes for a small fee and you think it is genius? ha ha well he tried the same thing with Space Giraffe and it sold about 30 copies on Xbox Live for 360 (to his low-brow fans at the pathetic badly moderated llamasoft forum I bet) but it disappeared without a trace, and review scores from people worth listening to ranged from 2/10 to about 5/10 if they were being generous...and that is taking into account the game was like 6 bucks ha ha. 2/10 for 6 bucks...how embarassing...the only reason he still bothers to write games is because he is broke and probably mentally deranged now.
Huh, is it really obscure, are you going by personal experience or do you have knoledge of the American Arcades as well? I'd gotten the impression that Tempest was one of Atari's big arcade hits, not the biggest, but enought to get mentioned in the same breath as Asteroids, Battlezone, Missile Command, and Centipede. (and in fact included among those in the 1993 Microsoft Arcade pack -which was my first exposure to the game -any of those games for that matter) Then the Star Wars vector games of course.

Tempest was a fantastic arcade hit, at least here in the U.S. It was revolutionary for the time (1981), with excellent vector graphics and fantastic control with the knob. Maybe they didn't have it where he lived. It was a very popular game, and with good reason. I really like T2K as well.

+wood_jl · January 27, 2010

As has been alluded to by others previously in the thread, the lack of U.S. support *really* hurt the ST in later days, amongst other things. The original 520ST $799 monochrome/$999 color was a price/performance breakthrough. The 1040ST was another, with the first under-$1000 (by a dollar) computer with a MEG of RAM. But that's pretty much where the breakthroughs seem to have stopped. The Megas weren't any screaming deal.

What? Where could you get a 4MB machine in Fall 1987 for under $2500? Nowhere! It was a great deal for those who needed the extra memory such as desktop publishing and music applications.

I don't know. All I said is that the deal wasn't as sweet and groundbreaking (price/performancewise) :thumbsdown: as the 520/1040 release :thumbsup: , that's all. There wasn't much new brought to the table, other than RAM. The waning popularity of the machine would seem to be supporting evidence.

thrax · January 27, 2010

When i was shopping for a computer during the 16 bit era i looked at the ST, Mac and IIGS. The ST had a low initial cost and the apple computers had both sale prices and hefty educational discounts which made the amiga look like the expensive choice.

I liked the Atari because during the initial start of the atari/amiga computers there was VERY LITTLE software available and the Atari st had the mac emulator which ran major software packages well. THe local dealer let me try some mac software packages on it and it was really awesome with the Atari's larger resolution. This was a great for those willing to wait for later software packages for the ST. The dealer also told me that lots of computer labs (like DTP houses ) were buying a couple of STs with mac emulators to add seats to their mac labs without paying the higher (undiscounted) price of the macs.

I never liked the amiga's GUI it seemed kinda crude to me and the a1000s very high price didn't help much either. Educational discounts from commodore came way to late. IIRC the amiga had low memory on the cpu, something like 256K which was a turn off too.

In the end i got the mac because a big sale came and coupled with the educational discount it wasn't much more than an ST. If i wasn't a student (hence no edu discount) i definitely would of got the ST. So to answer the title of the thread i would pick ST over Amiga.

JamesD · January 28, 2010

Yeah, that's kind of whay I meade the comment about excepting ease/comvenience of programming. (the 65816 was kind of a pain in that respect as well, wasn't it?)

The 65816 is a little odd but I don't think it compares to the memory models of the 80x86, mostly because you only have a couple of memory models on the 65816.

kool kitty89 · January 28, 2010

I don't know where you were, but I remember people were amazed at T2K when I was "demonstrating" (ie playing it! ) on the Jag kiosks at the many retailers who had them. T2K the same as a Capcom/Konami game? HAHAHA! You have GOT to be kidding me! How many more run/jump/shoot platform games can we take from those companies? They just produced more shovelware with different graphics and sound. Compared to the other games available at the time, T2K was VERY unique and different. It did have elements of other popular games at the time (power-ups, bonuses, etc) but that's were the similarities end. The excellent updated graphics, frantic fast-paced action and a raving techno soundtrack really set this game apart from other games at the time.

That's why many people were attracted to it. Obviously, you weren't, but you're in the minority here...

Witht he capcom/konami comment, I think he was comparing the popularity in the arcade to the original tempest. (ie lots of popular fighting games -which I personally dond't care much for)

What about Linux?

You'd still be running it on a platform evloved from IBM's 1981 standard, but it would have nothing to do with MS Windows. (andbesides, Macs now use that same architecture, can run PC OSs natively, and you can even get OSX to run on a PC -very carefully )

True but only if you're running it on an x86 or x64 Mac/PC. I ran it quite productively on a 400Mhz Pismo Powerbook. I was even able to virtualize both OS X and OS 9 VERY well on it. Mac-On-Linux worked better than "Classic Environment" did at the time in that if it messed up the brain damage was confined to window OS 9 was running in rather than fubaring the primary desktop in interesting ways. PowerPC at the time had virtualization features that are only now becoming mainstream on Intel/AMD. I loved that laptop but time and progress left it behind.

There are all sorts of interesting MIPS and ARM hardware that runs it. That will be interesting to watch in the coming years.

Yes, then there's the PS3 as well (well the non slim models). Amiga OS hasn't been ported to any other architectures though right -just PPC with OS4? (or can you use OS4 on Apple's PPC machines?)

Yes, that is true, good points. However, such usage, however inaccurate, probably isn't going away. What is important is just understanding what people - however technically handicapped - are trying to say. All I am pointing out is "what people commonly mean" when they talk about "bitness" and graphics. For the sake of discussion, If you were around in the days when the Sega Genesis (and SNES) came out (as well as when the ST and Amiga came out), "16-bit" was used to identify the Genesis/SNES generation. Those were the popular ones. Doesn't matter what else "had 16-bits" because that's what all the idiots meant. What everyone had JUST been playing beforehand was the NES, Master System, 7800. Those, while 8-bit all the time, suddenly became "8-bit" to distinguish them. What was relevant at the time - as always - was what was popular. Sure, the Fairchild Channel F is 8-bit as well, so was the VCS. They weren't popular at the time the 16-bits came out like NES (etc) so when the f___king idiots referred to "8-bit" generation, they weren't trying to enter a technical debate; they were talking about "the last generation". With 32-bits it was Saturn/PSX because they had the market share. When people talk about "32-bit generation" they mean these, because they were popular. So the term didn't fit the N64. So what; it's a stupid term anyway. So the term doesn't fit the Jaguar. So what; it's a stupid term anyway. So what about the 3DO; those weren't popular. Nobody even knows what those are anymore (talking about general population). I'm not defending the term - it's going to be used forevermore. What's important is that you understand what people mean, however technically imprecise. What's not important is going around trying to correct everyone in every instance; you'd have to devote your life to correcting every idiot in existance and it would take more than you, so what's the point? Either you can "get this" and comprehend whatever the hell the bastards are trying to say to you and move on, or you can pretend to not understand in "technical objection" and engage in a protracted, pointless, and certainly unrewarding demonstration against it.

Well at least in the US, but even then how are the PSX/Saturn "32-bit" compared to the N64 looking "64-bit," most stuff looks similar in terms of graphical prowess. (with some exceptions on advanced stuff and a few N64 games supporting 640x480i -and a few others 320x480i -I think all 3DO stuff output/upscaled to 480i though -you loose the 60 fps max though, or suffer combing) "128-bit" is what really riles me up though, it makes rather little sense. (actually the X-box at least could apply to that -in the same sense the Jaguar does to 64-bits- with the dual channel DDR shared CPU/Graphics memory -I'm not sure if the GC, PS2, or DC had 128-bit video busses though -PS2 was the only one with an actual 64-bit CPU though)

Anyway, perception in Europe/UK may be different, I mean they had all those 8-bit home computer as very popular game machines (and can you really compare the Speccy to the 3rd generation game consoles), plus the ST and Amiga were much more popuar as mainstream gaming machines, so perspectives may have been a bit different.

I understand what most people mean when they say "8-bit" or "16-bit" looking, "32-bit" for the most part as well, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. (I'm sticking with the generation labels -though that's a bit skewed as well with stuf like the ColecoVision/5200/Vectrex being in 2nd or 3rd generation -let alone including home computers) Even worse is 8-bit or 16-bit "sounding" stuff. (had the YM2413 been in the western SMS that would really confuse things )

Oh, and wasn't the 2600 Jr still popular as a budget gaming machine (in Europe at least) by 1989/90? (I remember comments from soem UK people -on AA and Sega-16, mentioning stores still carying the Jr into the early 90s -maybe longer than the 7800 even)

Are you sure that Atari Corp even had anything to do with the design? "Forcing the 68k into it???" So you mean the original design did not include a 68k, Atari insisted, and they went back to the drawing board? You have proof of this?

Yes, this was discussed at length in the Jaguar forum, Flare had been with atary since 1990 at least (possibly '89, I don't recall for sure), they had the Panther design which was scrapped (good thing too), and the Jaguar's chipset had been in the works more or less since 1991 I beleive. Flare went out of their way to design the system to accept a variety of CPU architectures, 68k family, MIPS R2000/3000, or x86 (as the Flare 1 had used), not ARM though. Management pushed for a 68k as the cheapest option, but it really doesn't work well with such a single bus, cacheless design. (that and it forces Jerry onto a 16-bit data bus even though it's a 32-bit chip and has 32 data lines on the package)

One has to wonder if the Tramiels had any understanding of the videogame market at all. Canning the 7800 when it was a hot property (1984). Releasing the XEGS in 1987, with games that boasted of 1983 copyright right on the title screen. Releasing totally antique games to compete with innovative new Japanese titles. [Donkey Kong was a big release on 7800 - in 1988!!!] Releasing the Jaguar with 3 buttons in the age of Mortal Kombat, when SNES had 4 + shoulder buttons and Genesis had doubled their controller buttons to 6. Jack would have likely canned the whole thing earlier, which probably would have saved the company money.

They didn't can the 7800, a lto of things surround that are false, Curt Vendel and Wgungfu have rebutted this more recently. As I recall, there were disputes over the relationship with GCC and the rights to the 7800, there was a lot of negotiating with Warner (and GCC) necessary to work that out, hence the delay. Still, 1984 wasn't a very freindly market, though an earlier start might have helped (best if Warner hadn't ditched Atari Inc and Morgan had continued with his reformation of the company), by mid 1985 the market seemed to be stabilizing at least, the 2600 Jr sold fairly well (sold out with the limited production capacity), before the NES was even test marketed too. (which was rather poor -Super Mario and the full release in '86 changed that) Even so the 7800 sold surprisingly well. (Curt's figures give ~3.77 million for the US alone iirc)

As for the Jag gamepads, I beleive those had been designed for the Panther back in 1991 (same controler ports and interface as STE/Falcon I think), also remember that Sega only released their 6-button controller in 1993, so it was a bit soon to use that as the pattern, 3DO used kind of a weird hybrid of SNES and Genesis 3-button controllers too. (something like the pro controller at launch would have been great -probably all related to the rushed launch though -and management problems) Atari never did end up releasing the 7800 joypads int he US either for whatever reason. (lucky Europeans )

Apparently Atari Corp also turned down an offer from Sega to partner ont he release of the Genesis prior to it's US release, then again, that was risky at the time given Sega's even weaker market share in the US than Atari at the time -probably the reason for the proposition. (albeit quite stron in Europe) And Machael Katz did end up leaving a little after that and joining Sega as the president of the American branch. (and managed to sell 500,000 units in his 6 months there from the Genesis's release along with starting the "Genesis Does!" campaign and promoting celebrity tie-ins -Japan was not satisfied -1M units in 6 months being the quota, and replaced him with Tom Kalinske -just as Sonic was nearing release)

Edit:

The 7800 was by GCC, there was nobody at Atari to fire in regards to that. It was simply on hold while Warner and Atari Corp. figured out who owed GCC for development and ownership rights. It was finally decided that Spring of '85 Atari Corp. would, they paid GCC and got full ownership. Development started up that late summer/early Fall under pressure from Warner and it was re-announced that January of '86 at the Winter CES. There was no "sitting on it", and actually the 7800 got horrible reviews at the Summer '84 CES.

Didn't one story go that Jack ended up throwing a 7800 on the floor durring a board meeting at some point? (also something about wanting to sell the console for $50 and games for $10 in the interview/presentaion on the 7800 with Stevel Golson -and commentary by Curt Vendel)

That was recorded 5 and a half years ago, before the information we have now. As Curt alluded to in the post I linked to, some people's memories might be a bit jaded. The facts state otherwise regarding why the 7800 was on hold during that time. It was one of several things that was being hashed out between Warner and Atari Corp. Previously, a number of deals were actually set up with Warner and then executed by Atari Inc., which is part of the issue of the dual management I mentioned. During the transition, they kept those deals and a number of other "open accounts", the Amiga deal being another. Likewise, we know for a fact that he started up the 2600 Jr. project in August again, so that contrasts against the other jaded statements regarding his supposed direction and the whole incident.

Tempest was a fantastic arcade hit, at least here in the U.S. It was revolutionary for the time (1981), with excellent vector graphics and fantastic control with the knob. Maybe they didn't have it where he lived. It was a very popular game, and with good reason. I really like T2K as well.

Thank god, I thought I was crazy for a minute there. I don't think it's at any of the arcades I've visited though (SC Beach Boardwalk has a nice retro arcade, no Missile Command or Tempest as I recall though --BZ, Pac Man, Ms. Pac Man, Asteroids, vector Star Wars, I think centipede as well -not so much a fan of that one though)

Edited January 28, 2010 by kool kitty89

atarian63 · January 28, 2010

I don't know where you were, but I remember people were amazed at T2K when I was "demonstrating" (ie playing it! ) on the Jag kiosks at the many retailers who had them. T2K the same as a Capcom/Konami game? HAHAHA! You have GOT to be kidding me! How many more run/jump/shoot platform games can we take from those companies? They just produced more shovelware with different graphics and sound. Compared to the other games available at the time, T2K was VERY unique and different. It did have elements of other popular games at the time (power-ups, bonuses, etc) but that's were the similarities end. The excellent updated graphics, frantic fast-paced action and a raving techno soundtrack really set this game apart from other games at the time.

That's why many people were attracted to it. Obviously, you weren't, but you're in the minority here...

Witht he capcom/konami comment, I think he was comparing the popularity in the arcade to the original tempest. (ie lots of popular fighting games -which I personally dond't care much for)

What about Linux?

You'd still be running it on a platform evloved from IBM's 1981 standard, but it would have nothing to do with MS Windows. (andbesides, Macs now use that same architecture, can run PC OSs natively, and you can even get OSX to run on a PC -very carefully )

True but only if you're running it on an x86 or x64 Mac/PC. I ran it quite productively on a 400Mhz Pismo Powerbook. I was even able to virtualize both OS X and OS 9 VERY well on it. Mac-On-Linux worked better than "Classic Environment" did at the time in that if it messed up the brain damage was confined to window OS 9 was running in rather than fubaring the primary desktop in interesting ways. PowerPC at the time had virtualization features that are only now becoming mainstream on Intel/AMD. I loved that laptop but time and progress left it behind.

There are all sorts of interesting MIPS and ARM hardware that runs it. That will be interesting to watch in the coming years.

Yes, then there's the PS3 as well (well the non slim models). Amiga OS hasn't been ported to any other architectures though right -just PPC with OS4? (or can you use OS4 on Apple's PPC machines?)

Yes, that is true, good points. However, such usage, however inaccurate, probably isn't going away. What is important is just understanding what people - however technically handicapped - are trying to say. All I am pointing out is "what people commonly mean" when they talk about "bitness" and graphics. For the sake of discussion, If you were around in the days when the Sega Genesis (and SNES) came out (as well as when the ST and Amiga came out), "16-bit" was used to identify the Genesis/SNES generation. Those were the popular ones. Doesn't matter what else "had 16-bits" because that's what all the idiots meant. What everyone had JUST been playing beforehand was the NES, Master System, 7800. Those, while 8-bit all the time, suddenly became "8-bit" to distinguish them. What was relevant at the time - as always - was what was popular. Sure, the Fairchild Channel F is 8-bit as well, so was the VCS. They weren't popular at the time the 16-bits came out like NES (etc) so when the f___king idiots referred to "8-bit" generation, they weren't trying to enter a technical debate; they were talking about "the last generation". With 32-bits it was Saturn/PSX because they had the market share. When people talk about "32-bit generation" they mean these, because they were popular. So the term didn't fit the N64. So what; it's a stupid term anyway. So the term doesn't fit the Jaguar. So what; it's a stupid term anyway. So what about the 3DO; those weren't popular. Nobody even knows what those are anymore (talking about general population). I'm not defending the term - it's going to be used forevermore. What's important is that you understand what people mean, however technically imprecise. What's not important is going around trying to correct everyone in every instance; you'd have to devote your life to correcting every idiot in existance and it would take more than you, so what's the point? Either you can "get this" and comprehend whatever the hell the bastards are trying to say to you and move on, or you can pretend to not understand in "technical objection" and engage in a protracted, pointless, and certainly unrewarding demonstration against it.

Well at least in the US, but even then how are the PSX/Saturn "32-bit" compared to the N64 looking "64-bit," most stuff looks similar in terms of graphical prowess. (with some exceptions on advanced stuff and a few N64 games supporting 640x480i -and a few others 320x480i -I think all 3DO stuff output/upscaled to 480i though -you loose the 60 fps max though, or suffer combing) "128-bit" is what really riles me up though, it makes rather little sense. (actually the X-box at least could apply to that -in the same sense the Jaguar does to 64-bits- with the dual channel DDR shared CPU/Graphics memory -I'm not sure if the GC, PS2, or DC had 128-bit video busses though -PS2 was the only one with an actual 64-bit CPU though)

Anyway, perception in Europe/UK may be different, I mean they had all those 8-bit home computer as very popular game machines (and can you really compare the Speccy to the 3rd generation game consoles), plus the ST and Amiga were much more popuar as mainstream gaming machines, so perspectives may have been a bit different.

I understand what most people mean when they say "8-bit" or "16-bit" looking, "32-bit" for the most part as well, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. (I'm sticking with the generation labels -though that's a bit skewed as well with stuf like the ColecoVision/5200/Vectrex being in 2nd or 3rd generation -let alone including home computers) Even worse is 8-bit or 16-bit "sounding" stuff. (had the YM2413 been in the western SMS that would really confuse things )

Oh, and wasn't the 2600 Jr still popular as a budget gaming machine (in Europe at least) by 1989/90? (I remember comments from soem UK people -on AA and Sega-16, mentioning stores still carying the Jr into the early 90s -maybe longer than the 7800 even)

Are you sure that Atari Corp even had anything to do with the design? "Forcing the 68k into it???" So you mean the original design did not include a 68k, Atari insisted, and they went back to the drawing board? You have proof of this?
Yes, this was discussed at length in the Jaguar forum, Flare had been with atary since 1990 at least (possibly '89, I don't recall for sure), they had the Panther design which was scrapped (good thing too), and the Jaguar's chipset had been in the works more or less since 1991 I beleive. Flare went out of their way to design the system to accept a variety of CPU architectures, 68k family, MIPS R2000/3000, or x86 (as the Flare 1 had used), not ARM though. Management pushed for a 68k as the cheapest option, but it really doesn't work well with such a single bus, cacheless design. (that and it forces Jerry onto a 16-bit data bus even though it's a 32-bit chip and has 32 data lines on the package)

One has to wonder if the Tramiels had any understanding of the videogame market at all. Canning the 7800 when it was a hot property (1984). Releasing the XEGS in 1987, with games that boasted of 1983 copyright right on the title screen. Releasing totally antique games to compete with innovative new Japanese titles. [Donkey Kong was a big release on 7800 - in 1988!!!] Releasing the Jaguar with 3 buttons in the age of Mortal Kombat, when SNES had 4 + shoulder buttons and Genesis had doubled their controller buttons to 6. Jack would have likely canned the whole thing earlier, which probably would have saved the company money.

They didn't can the 7800, a lto of things surround that are false, Curt Vendel and Wgungfu have rebutted this more recently. As I recall, there were disputes over the relationship with GCC and the rights to the 7800, there was a lot of negotiating with Warner (and GCC) necessary to work that out, hence the delay. Still, 1984 wasn't a very freindly market, though an earlier start might have helped (best if Warner hadn't ditched Atari Inc and Morgan had continued with his reformation of the company), by mid 1985 the market seemed to be stabilizing at least, the 2600 Jr sold fairly well (sold out with the limited production capacity), before the NES was even test marketed too. (which was rather poor -Super Mario and the full release in '86 changed that) Even so the 7800 sold surprisingly well. (Curt's figures give ~3.77 million for the US alone iirc)

As for the Jag gamepads, I beleive those had been designed for the Panther back in 1991 (same controler ports and interface as STE/Falcon I think), also remember that Sega only released their 6-button controller in 1993, so it was a bit soon to use that as the pattern, 3DO used kind of a weird hybrid of SNES and Genesis 3-button controllers too. (something like the pro controller at launch would have been great -probably all related to the rushed launch though -and management problems) Atari never did end up releasing the 7800 joypads int he US either for whatever reason. (lucky Europeans )

Apparently Atari Corp also turned down an offer from Sega to partner ont he release of the Genesis prior to it's US release, then again, that was risky at the time given Sega's even weaker market share in the US than Atari at the time -probably the reason for the proposition. (albeit quite stron in Europe) And Machael Katz did end up leaving a little after that and joining Sega as the president of the American branch. (and managed to sell 500,000 units in his 6 months there from the Genesis's release along with starting the "Genesis Does!" campaign and promoting celebrity tie-ins -Japan was not satisfied -1M units in 6 months being the quota, and replaced him with Tom Kalinske -just as Sonic was nearing release)

Tempest was a fantastic arcade hit, at least here in the U.S. It was revolutionary for the time (1981), with excellent vector graphics and fantastic control with the knob. Maybe they didn't have it where he lived. It was a very popular game, and with good reason. I really like T2K as well.

Thank god, I thought I was crazy for a minute there. I don't think it's at any of the arcades I've visited though (SC Beach Boardwalk has a nice retro arcade, no Missile Command or Tempest as I recall though -BZ, Pac Man, Ms. Pac Man, Asteroids, vector Star Wars, I think centipede as well -not so much a fan of that one though)

Very odd, probably due to the lack of longevity on the vector monitor, they had many a problem and are hard to work on. I personally own serveral vector games,including tempest,Star Wars sitdown to name a couple. Tempest is usually in the top ten list of all time arcade games and still commands a stiff price for working units on ebay. Compared to simpler and more common raster games. If you didnt like centipede try millipede for more of a challenge. play a real one with a trackball or you miss the whole dynamic of the game. I have a switcher tabletable that has both in one unit.

kool kitty89 · January 28, 2010

Thank god, I thought I was crazy for a minute there. I don't think it's at any of the arcades I've visited though (SC Beach Boardwalk has a nice retro arcade, no Missile Command or Tempest as I recall though -BZ, Pac Man, Ms. Pac Man, Asteroids, vector Star Wars, I think centipede as well -not so much a fan of that one though)

Very odd, probably due to the lack of longevity on the vector monitor, they had many a problem and are hard to work on. I personally own serveral vector games,including tempest,Star Wars sitdown to name a couple. Tempest is usually in the top ten list of all time arcade games and still commands a stiff price for working units on ebay. Compared to simpler and more common raster games. If you didnt like centipede try millipede for more of a challenge. play a real one with a trackball or you miss the whole dynamic of the game. I have a switcher tabletable that has both in one unit.

I'm not that big of an arcade guy, there's probably an arcade in the area with a Tempest machine, just none at the local theme parks and such. (theaters tend to stick with newer stuff, and Nickel City was formerly a Capcom owned operation I think -so biassed to that) I haven't been to any dedicated retro arcades either (the board walk has a section dedicated to that, but not the whole arcade), I wouldn't doubt there are good ones around though, if not really close by, maybe in a neighboring city (San Fransisco?), I haven't looked into it. (I'm not a huge arcade guy, but you can bet I'll spend a lot of time there whenever I good to the boardwalk)

oky2000 · January 28, 2010

I'm sorry but Tempest is in no way in the same class of recognition or adoration worldwide as a retro game as things like Donkey Kong, Pac-man or Galaxians etc. Yes it may have sold well but it is NOT something very sought after. It is a retro game, many people remember it but it just isn't in the same level of 'love' worldwide. Obviously being here and the fact it was an Atari coin-op skews reality...but when did reality ever bother the Atari fanboys here?

As for people amazed with T2K in Atarian63s flea-hole well they are Atari fanboys....so why would they NOT like the coding products of a confirmed bestiality loving weirdo on Atari hardware Simple fact is T2k is a simple revamp of a VERY simple looking game from the early 80s. And the sales figures back this up....who would rather play a real game written by some normal programmers from Nintendo or Sega <enter game of choice> compared to said simple looking vector graphics type game...erm yeah I'm sure the designer of Donkey Kong was quaking in his boots over T2K haha

Something like Viewpoint on the Neo-Geo is the sort of quality I would expect for a retro remake costing 50 bucks, with awesome beautiful DETAILED AND MUCH IMPROVED graphics not some shitty basic vector routines on T2K, quality funky music not the cheap shit talentless music on T2K, some RADICAL IMPROVEMENT on the look and gameplay of the original game it is based on (which in that case is Zaxxon)

Sorry but T2K is basic small time budget quality in reality, a very mild improvement in retro-remakes terms also...and guess what...the Jag was small time in console sales....the only people buying it being fanboys who thought T2K was worth it...the rest of the world ignored such games which should have been left in the cassette based 8 bit gaming era.

I have given two games now which show just with talent and artistic skill a remake of an original idea can be massively improved even with inferior hardware (SSD AGA and Viewpoint) and anyone with a sense of objectivity and more intelligence than a vegetable will concur T2K is just the talentless output of a weirdo with bestiality tendancies.....discuss further if you like but I think we all know the Jag never got anywhere and saying T2K is brilliant and a reason for getting a Jag is just fanboy kneejerk reaction normal on here

atarian63 · January 28, 2010

I'm sorry but Tempest is in no way in the same class of recognition or adoration worldwide as a retro game as things like Donkey Kong, Pac-man or Galaxians etc. Yes it may have sold well but it is NOT something very sought after. It is a retro game, many people remember it but it just isn't in the same level of 'love' worldwide. Obviously being here and the fact it was an Atari coin-op skews reality...but when did reality ever bother the Atari fanboys here?

As for people amazed with T2K in Atarian63s flea-hole well they are Atari fanboys....so why would they NOT like the coding products of a confirmed bestiality loving weirdo on Atari hardware Simple fact is T2k is a simple revamp of a VERY simple looking game from the early 80s. And the sales figures back this up....who would rather play a real game written by some normal programmers from Nintendo or Sega <enter game of choice> compared to said simple looking vector graphics type game...erm yeah I'm sure the designer of Donkey Kong was quaking in his boots over T2K haha

Something like Viewpoint on the Neo-Geo is the sort of quality I would expect for a retro remake costing 50 bucks, with awesome beautiful DETAILED AND MUCH IMPROVED graphics not some shitty basic vector routines on T2K, quality funky music not the cheap shit talentless music on T2K, some RADICAL IMPROVEMENT on the look and gameplay of the original game it is based on (which in that case is Zaxxon)

Sorry but T2K is basic small time budget quality in reality, a very mild improvement in retro-remakes terms also...and guess what...the Jag was small time in console sales....the only people buying it being fanboys who thought T2K was worth it...the rest of the world ignored such games which should have been left in the cassette based 8 bit gaming era.

I have given two games now which show just with talent and artistic skill a remake of an original idea can be massively improved even with inferior hardware (SSD AGA and Viewpoint) and anyone with a sense of objectivity and more intelligence than a vegetable will concur T2K is just the talentless output of a weirdo with bestiality tendancies.....discuss further if you like but I think we all know the Jag never got anywhere and saying T2K is brilliant and a reason for getting a Jag is just fanboy kneejerk reaction normal on here

ahhh, when losing an arguement,okie dokey resorts to using "fanboy". he just cant face being wrong. By the way tool, the area I live in is 1.5million people and a general test market for U.S. manufacturers, so go on back to your own dreamland. :roll: Explains your dullard opinions in other threads here as well.

I think the thread here has given you the opinion the Tempest is one of the all time greats. Tempest 2000 was a great improvement and just a super title by a very skilled programmer.

frogstar_robot · January 28, 2010

I'm sorry but Tempest is in no way in the same class of recognition or adoration worldwide as a retro game as things like Donkey Kong, Pac-man or Galaxians etc. Yes it may have sold well but it is NOT something very sought after. It is a retro game, many people remember it but it just isn't in the same level of 'love' worldwide. Obviously being here and the fact it was an Atari coin-op skews reality...but when did reality ever bother the Atari fanboys here?

KLOV disagrees with you: http://www.klov.com/T/Tempest.html

Very Common - There are 431 known instances of Tempest owned by one of our 6299 members. Of these, 414 of them are original dedicated machines, 3 of them are conversions in which game circuit boards (and possibly cabinet graphics) have been placed in (and on) another game cabinet, and 14 of them are only circuit boards which a collector could put into a generic case if desired.

Of the 59,252 video games (3,493 unique) tracked by the Video Game Preservation Society, this game ranks a 99 on a scale out of 100 (100 = most commonly seen, 1=least common) in popularity based on ownership records.

Wanted - Very Popular - There are 47 VAPS members currently looking for Tempest.

I could care less about the whinging back and forth about T2K (fun game though) but the original arcade machine commands more respect than you seem to think it does. Back in the day, I saw it frequently played and in many arcades and locations. Unless of course you want to get into some sort of subjective "Nostalgia Factor X".......

desiv · January 28, 2010

I have to agree, as much as it pains me.

Tempest is one of the greatest Arcade games ever. A true classic.

I'd easily place it up there with Pacman and Donkey Kong.

And from what I've seen, Tempest 2000 is a great addition. Although, not being true vector game, it is pretty darn good.

Oh well, time to turn on my Vectrex and play some Tsunami... ;-)

desiv

+wood_jl · January 28, 2010

I'm sorry but Tempest is in no way in the same class of recognition or adoration worldwide as a retro game as things like Donkey Kong, Pac-man or Galaxians etc. Yes it may have sold well but it is NOT something very sought after. It is a retro game, many people remember it but it just isn't in the same level of 'love' worldwide. Obviously being here and the fact it was an Atari coin-op skews reality...but when did reality ever bother the Atari fanboys here?

Just because someone likes Tempest doesn't make them an Atari fanboy. It's not the "greatest game in the world" but it's quite good, to most people. Just because something isn't "the greatest" doesn't mean it's a pile of shit, either - I hate that people try to make things out that way.

As for people amazed with T2K in Atarian63s flea-hole well they are Atari fanboys....so why would they NOT like the coding products of a confirmed bestiality loving weirdo on Atari hardware Simple fact is T2k is a simple revamp of a VERY simple looking game from the early 80s. And the sales figures back this up....who would rather play a real game written by some normal programmers from Nintendo or Sega <enter game of choice> compared to said simple looking vector graphics type game...erm yeah I'm sure the designer of Donkey Kong was quaking in his boots over T2K haha

I don't know what your beef is with Minter. Just because you hate him - and he choose to remake Tempest - that makes the original Tempest "suck" so you can use it in criticism of him? Do be serious. Separate your anger with that dude from everything else. Lots of people are going to like the original Tempest. Of those people, most are going to really like T2K, regardless of the author; if T2K was written by the Sta-Puft Marshmallow Man, it wouldn't matter.

If your point was that a big hit on the 64-bit Jaguar is something of T2K's complexity, and a big hit on the 32-bit Playstation is something of Gran Turismo's complexity - I'd get your point and agree. However, that doesn't make T2K suck; it has nothing to do with "what is fun."

atarian63 · January 28, 2010

I have to agree, as much as it pains me.

Tempest is one of the greatest Arcade games ever. A true classic.

I'd easily place it up there with Pacman and Donkey Kong.

And from what I've seen, Tempest 2000 is a great addition. Although, not being true vector game, it is pretty darn good.

Oh well, time to turn on my Vectrex and play some Tsunami...

desiv

cool Vectrex! :thumbsup:

kool kitty89 · January 29, 2010

Atari fanboys....so why would they NOT like the coding products of a confirmed bestiality loving weirdo on Atari hardware Simple fact is T2k is a simple revamp of a VERY simple looking game from the early 80s.

And the sales figures back this up....

Looking at the sales figures available, it looks like Tempest 2000 sold close to 1:1 for the Jaguar, possibly its most popular game... (and again, I find it quite fun and addictive, same for the Arcade original -albeit not as much and mind you I've only plyaed it on PT, the VCS is the only Atari machine I own) T2K is hardly a reson the Jag was unsuccessful, on th econtrary, it was probably a significant contributor to what limited susccess it did have.

who would rather play a real game written by some normal programmers from Nintendo or Sega <enter game of choice> compared to said simple looking vector graphics type game...erm yeah I'm sure the designer of Donkey Kong was quaking in his boots over T2K haha

Umm, yeah I'm sure Shigeru Myamoto was too busy working on Yoshi's Island (and getting discuntled over the whole DOnky Kong Country thing) to be worried about something lke that.

Lynxpro · March 4, 2010

One has to wonder if the Tramiels had any understanding of the videogame market at all. Canning the 7800 when it was a hot property (1984). Releasing the XEGS in 1987, with games that boasted of 1983 copyright right on the title screen. Releasing totally antique games to compete with innovative new Japanese titles. [Donkey Kong was a big release on 7800 - in 1988!!!] Releasing the Jaguar with 3 buttons in the age of Mortal Kombat, when SNES had 4 + shoulder buttons and Genesis had doubled their controller buttons to 6. Jack would have likely canned the whole thing earlier, which probably would have saved the company money.

I brought the lack of the 6 fire buttons on what became the Jaguar controller to the attention of Atari staff at the Sacramento Atari show in 1992 [it may have been 1991, I'll have to double check]. My comments were dismissed by Mike Fulton who had come to Atari for doing some word processing program [i can't remember what it was] and not because of being a gamer. He looked at me with disbelief and said the controller - considering the numeric keypad - already had more than enough buttons. He later worked on Kasumi Ninja, if that explains anything to the multitude of critics of that game.

The Jag Pro Controller is what should've shipped day one with the Jaguar.

As for the Motorola portion of the Jaguar chips, Atari should've went with a 68020 or a 68030 by that point. Remember, Atari Games used a 68020 in the "CoJag" system. But it was sucky games that really killed the Jag. That soccer game was offensively bad graphically. Same goes for the racing games. Terrible.

Apparently Atari Corp also turned down an offer from Sega to partner ont he release of the Genesis prior to it's US release, then again, that was risky at the time given Sega's even weaker market share in the US than Atari at the time -probably the reason for the proposition. (albeit quite stron in Europe) And Machael Katz did end up leaving a little after that and joining Sega as the president of the American branch. (and managed to sell 500,000 units in his 6 months there from the Genesis's release along with starting the "Genesis Does!" campaign and promoting celebrity tie-ins -Japan was not satisfied -1M units in 6 months being the quota, and replaced him with Tom Kalinske -just as Sonic was nearing release)

Not quite right. Sega Japan lacked confidence in Sega of America and they initially considered having Atari Corp. market the Mega Drive in the US [and in Europe, I've heard]. And it was represented in Antic/STart that Atari was interested as well which apparently killed any of their plans in making an "ST Game System" which had been the prior rumor. Ultimately, Sega Japan allowed Sega of America to market the "Genesis".

Very odd, probably due to the lack of longevity on the vector monitor, they had many a problem and are hard to work on. I personally own serveral vector games,including tempest,Star Wars sitdown to name a couple. Tempest is usually in the top ten list of all time arcade games and still commands a stiff price for working units on ebay. Compared to simpler and more common raster games. If you didnt like centipede try millipede for more of a challenge. play a real one with a trackball or you miss the whole dynamic of the game. I have a switcher tabletable that has both in one unit.

I couldn't play Star Wars Arcade sitting down. My scores were always better with the stand up arcade machine version.

Atari fanboys....so why would they NOT like the coding products of a confirmed bestiality loving weirdo on Atari hardware Simple fact is T2k is a simple revamp of a VERY simple looking game from the early 80s.

And the sales figures back this up....

Looking at the sales figures available, it looks like Tempest 2000 sold close to 1:1 for the Jaguar, possibly its most popular game... (and again, I find it quite fun and addictive, same for the Arcade original -albeit not as much and mind you I've only plyaed it on PT, the VCS is the only Atari machine I own) T2K is hardly a reson the Jag was unsuccessful, on th econtrary, it was probably a significant contributor to what limited susccess it did have.

Tempest 2000 was fantastic. Hell, even EGM raved about it and they hated just about everything Atari did. They gave AvP scores of 5 out of 10 which was so insane they must've accepted bribe money for those scores which wouldn't surprise me considering how Sony and Nintendo both were buying out companies to bring certain Jag games to their platforms. I will never forgive UbiSoft for delaying Rayman on the Jag for 6 months just so they could release it at the same time as on the PS1. That was dirty and I'm sure Sony paid them to do so.

Edited March 4, 2010 by Lynxpro

atarian63 · March 4, 2010

One has to wonder if the Tramiels had any understanding of the videogame market at all. Canning the 7800 when it was a hot property (1984). Releasing the XEGS in 1987, with games that boasted of 1983 copyright right on the title screen. Releasing totally antique games to compete with innovative new Japanese titles. [Donkey Kong was a big release on 7800 - in 1988!!!] Releasing the Jaguar with 3 buttons in the age of Mortal Kombat, when SNES had 4 + shoulder buttons and Genesis had doubled their controller buttons to 6. Jack would have likely canned the whole thing earlier, which probably would have saved the company money.

I brought the lack of the 6 fire buttons on what became the Jaguar controller to the attention of Atari staff at the Sacramento Atari show in 1992 [it may have been 1991, I'll have to double check]. My comments were dismissed by Mike Fulton who had come to Atari for doing some word processing program [i can't remember what it was] and not because of being a gamer. He looked at me with disbelief and said the controller - considering the numeric keypad - already had more than enough buttons. He later worked on Kasumi Ninja, if that explains anything to the multitude of critics of that game.

The Jag Pro Controller is what should've shipped day one with the Jaguar.

As for the Motorola portion of the Jaguar chips, Atari should've went with a 68020 or a 68030 by that point. Remember, Atari Games used a 68020 in the "CoJag" system. But it was sucky games that really killed the Jag. That soccer game was offensively bad graphically. Same goes for the racing games. Terrible.

Apparently Atari Corp also turned down an offer from Sega to partner ont he release of the Genesis prior to it's US release, then again, that was risky at the time given Sega's even weaker market share in the US than Atari at the time -probably the reason for the proposition. (albeit quite stron in Europe) And Machael Katz did end up leaving a little after that and joining Sega as the president of the American branch. (and managed to sell 500,000 units in his 6 months there from the Genesis's release along with starting the "Genesis Does!" campaign and promoting celebrity tie-ins -Japan was not satisfied -1M units in 6 months being the quota, and replaced him with Tom Kalinske -just as Sonic was nearing release)

Not quite right. Sega Japan lacked confidence in Sega of America and they initially considered having Atari Corp. market the Mega Drive in the US [and in Europe, I've heard]. And it was represented in Antic/STart that Atari was interested as well which apparently killed any of their plans in making an "ST Game System" which had been the prior rumor. Ultimately, Sega Japan allowed Sega of America to market the "Genesis".

Very odd, probably due to the lack of longevity on the vector monitor, they had many a problem and are hard to work on. I personally own serveral vector games,including tempest,Star Wars sitdown to name a couple. Tempest is usually in the top ten list of all time arcade games and still commands a stiff price for working units on ebay. Compared to simpler and more common raster games. If you didnt like centipede try millipede for more of a challenge. play a real one with a trackball or you miss the whole dynamic of the game. I have a switcher tabletable that has both in one unit.

I couldn't play Star Wars Arcade sitting down. My scores were always better with the stand up arcade machine version.

Atari fanboys....so why would they NOT like the coding products of a confirmed bestiality loving weirdo on Atari hardware Simple fact is T2k is a simple revamp of a VERY simple looking game from the early 80s.

And the sales figures back this up....

Looking at the sales figures available, it looks like Tempest 2000 sold close to 1:1 for the Jaguar, possibly its most popular game... (and again, I find it quite fun and addictive, same for the Arcade original -albeit not as much and mind you I've only plyaed it on PT, the VCS is the only Atari machine I own) T2K is hardly a reson the Jag was unsuccessful, on th econtrary, it was probably a significant contributor to what limited susccess it did have.

Tempest 2000 was fantastic. Hell, even EGM raved about it and they hated just about everything Atari did. They gave AvP scores of 5 out of 10 which was so insane they must've accepted bribe money for those scores which wouldn't surprise me considering how Sony and Nintendo both were buying out companies to bring certain Jag games to their platforms. I will never forgive UbiSoft for delaying Rayman on the Jag for 6 months just so they could release it at the same time as on the PS1. That was dirty and I'm sure Sony paid them to do so.

Never played it standing up, Hard to find another star wars anywhere these days.

potatohead · March 6, 2010

If you were on the net at the time T2K was developed, Jeff gladly left, in what we would think of as a blog today, his dev notes along the way. Who knows, probably the whole thing is on rec.games.video.atari... still. I've not looked.

What makes that game great is he studied the original TEMPEST engine to learn what makes the game and why it's a great game, then expanded on that in a style very similar to what the original developer (Jarvis, I think) did. He posted many core observations about TEMPEST that were fairly technical in nature, also laying down his ideas for T2K, when it made sense. Not all of that was on USENET, but a lot of it was.

T2K has excellent level design, a good level advance "story", in that it's not just a simple linear progression of difficulty, but actually having some contrived challenges with their trade-offs that are a pleasure for those able to reach that level of play. There is a game within the game, in terms of the levels, what challenges are when and why, and the warps mean players can explore that from different angles getting challenged in a few different ways. Again, this is only significant, IF one can actually play the game. That's a tribute to the original developer, who used those ideas in other titles too, making his games very distinctive. Newer gamers don't always see this for what it is, because the focus of gaming today has moved away from that --on consoles, considerably far away, IMHO.

I thought the transition from vector to raster was good. Could have been way worse. The overall presentation of the game though, came across well. The pixellated "noise" is there for a specific reason, that I think he's over done in newer titles, and that reason is to reward those players who can also reach "the trance", where thought becomes action, and the game play actually benefits from that noise. It triggers focus and that "trance" state more quickly, and for longer periods of time. The game would be rather empty without it occurring at some of the most intense spots. Jeff is under-appreciated for this, largely because he doesn't always balance it well. That said, the fact that he does recognize the impact of that kind of presentation and how it aligns with the intensity of the game, is not something to just dismiss. T2K works on those levels where a whole lot of efforts just don't.

Make no mistake, it's a top title period, and it manages to do so while still giving a fairly diverse set of players a good experience worth it to them to play. Jeff was smart enough to raise the bar slowly, using traditional game elements, like power ups, warps and such to make that experience a good one. For those that reach "initial mastery", the game is right there, giving the player a few plateaus to cross before they can really own the game, and flat out, there are a lot of players that will never, ever do that. Again, just like the original developer did very well on the better titles.

It takes a specific kind of gamer, and gaming mind to appreciate these things and build on them, and for that I think Minter deserves some recognition. A whole lot of people can't do that with this genre, even though they are capable of great games otherwise.

One of Jeff Minter's most attractive qualities to me is that he could give two shits about who thinks what about his "oddities", preferring to roll his own way, and I totally respect that, even if I don't always understand the product of it.

Rock on Jeff.

Carry on all

Edited March 6, 2010 by potatohead

HiroProX · March 7, 2010

Yes, then there's the PS3 as well (well the non slim models). Amiga OS hasn't been ported to any other architectures though right -just PPC with OS4? (or can you use OS4 on Apple's PPC machines?)

AROS, an AmigaOS 3.x clone, runs on x86-32 and x86-64, and there's unofficial ports to Sparc64, Alpha, MIPS, and ARM.

Edited March 7, 2010 by HiroProX

kool kitty89 · March 8, 2010

One has to wonder if the Tramiels had any understanding of the videogame market at all. Canning the 7800 when it was a hot property (1984). Releasing the XEGS in 1987, with games that boasted of 1983 copyright right on the title screen. Releasing totally antique games to compete with innovative new Japanese titles. [Donkey Kong was a big release on 7800 - in 1988!!!] Releasing the Jaguar with 3 buttons in the age of Mortal Kombat, when SNES had 4 + shoulder buttons and Genesis had doubled their controller buttons to 6. Jack would have likely canned the whole thing earlier, which probably would have saved the company money.
I brought the lack of the 6 fire buttons on what became the Jaguar controller to the attention of Atari staff at the Sacramento Atari show in 1992 [it may have been 1991, I'll have to double check]. My comments were dismissed by Mike Fulton who had come to Atari for doing some word processing program [i can't remember what it was] and not because of being a gamer. He looked at me with disbelief and said the controller - considering the numeric keypad - already had more than enough buttons.

The controller dates back to 1990 I think, as part of the unfortunate Panther design. (thankfully abandoned)

The keypad could ahve been useful for a number of PC games needing added functions, but none really took advantage of this (doom is th ebest example, but something like X-wing would really have made use of it). However, cycling weapons/options and using button combinations instead of added keys could have made most of such games work fine with a sega saturn type layout or Jag Pro controller sans the keypad.

What gave you the idea of 6 fire buttons back in 1991/2, the SNES?

The genesis didn't get 6 buttons until 1993 with the release of Street Fighter II Special Champion Edition, so it's not that obvious all that long before the Jag was released... The 3DO opted to omit one of the SNES's buttons in favor of a sort of hybrid layout of arcing 3-buttons like the MD/Genesis pad and the SNES's shoulder buttons.

I already said much to this effect on the gamepad in response to wood_jl back in post 534, but one last thing in regards to Jack Tramiel: I'm not sure he would have scrapped the Jaguar, in fact, since he seemed to be much more capable at running the company than Sam, I'd bet the Jag would have been in much better shape, let alone the computer line (even if the ST had gotten pushed into a small, niche market -though if handeled properly, it maight have maintained popularity in Europe -PCs didn't become popular until the ST and Amiga were already declining, and both Atari and Commodore kind of screwed things up in the late 80s -commodore pretty much starting after Jack left, and same for Atari Corp). Makes one wonder how the ST;s later developments might have been handeled, or the Lynx for that matter, under Jack rather than Sam.

One intersign thought on the Jaguar, in context of the computer line is, while not very suitable to be converted into a personal computer istself, the Jag chipset could have made a great chipset for a graphics accelerator board. (probably omitting the sound and I/O portions, as well as the general CPU/host -with the computer's own CPU taking its place)

The Jag Pro Controller is what should've shipped day one with the Jaguar.

There are several jaguar threads mare soited to this topic, but the controllers are one of several issues related to a relase witht he console not being ready, a few months could have helped a lot, granted management itsself had problems. A lot of the issues were tied to limited funding though, the most likely reson for the half hearted pre-release in fall of '93 to drum up inversor intrest (which really should have reached Europe given Atari Corp's computer popularity there and their promise to include London and Paris in the test release). Digging into the Tramiels' private funds could have helped in that respect though, but that would have been riskier too and the Sega settlement didn't come through until mid 1994 I think.

It seems Sam was also nowhere near as capable at managing thins as his father had, including the computer line that steadily declined throughout the late 80s and early 90s. (and a number of mistakes made and somewhat odd decisions which contributed to this for Atari Corp)

As for the Motorola portion of the Jaguar chips, Atari should've went with a 68020 or a 68030 by that point. Remember, Atari Games used a 68020 in the "CoJag" system. But it was sucky games that really killed the Jag. That soccer game was offensively bad graphically. Same goes for the racing games. Terrible.

Yep, but an 030 would have been fairly expensive; a 68EC020FG16(RP16 -PGA instead of QFP) would have been the cheapest option at the time, 16.7 MHz rated, so would have the same speed limitations as the 68k (the 25 MHz version used in the arccade would be more expensive, obviously) and though not clocked faster, would have the key features of a cache (albeit small) to greatly reduce activity on the main bus, 32-bit wide bus (also widenign Jerry to 32-bits), and somewhat more efficient per-cycle performance. The Jag was designed to accept X86, 68k, or MIPS CPUs, hence the R3000 on some CoJags, but the 16 MHz rated EC020 is the next cheapest option and a big step up from the 68k. (well, a 68010 would be the immediate step up, and while it would help things a little, it would be much worse than th 020 still in terms of bus usage as well as keeping the 16-bit width -and same for Jerry)

Yo really should check out this thread though: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/119048-its-1993-youre-in-charge-of-the-jag-what-do-you-do/page__st__825

Not quite right. Sega Japan lacked confidence in Sega of America and they initially considered having Atari Corp. market the Mega Drive in the US [and in Europe, I've heard]. And it was represented in Antic/STart that Atari was interested as well which apparently killed any of their plans in making an "ST Game System" which had been the prior rumor. Ultimately, Sega Japan allowed Sega of America to market the "Genesis".

Hmm, a couple interviews with Katz didn't give me that impression, I'll try and find the specific quotes. (I seem to recall him mentioning SoJ representatives as well as Dave Rosen approaching Atari Corp with such a proposal)

Never played it standing up, Hard to find another star wars anywhere these days.

I've never played the sit-doen version, but I've played the stand-up cabenet a fair bit at Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk in the retro/classic section of the arcade. I'm not sure about the sit-sown unit, but th eupright one uses a control yolk, not a stick and you rotate the handels foreward and backward to change the elevation of the crosshairs rather than pushing/pullling with a real flight yolk. So does the sit-down unit use a joystick instead?

Edited March 8, 2010 by kool kitty89

kool kitty89 · March 8, 2010

OK, so here's a couple things on Katz's statements about the MD/Genesis with Atari Corp:

Firstly somehting that came up in an AA thread:

Hiya! I searched and found it!

It is indeed a statement by Mr Katz, so it should be relieable.

I have put the little text on the matter together from 2 pages; I did not want to print entire pages of the article here because the magazine is not that old and still available.

The article can be found in issue #27, in an article about the history of the Mega Drive. It is fascinating to see in retrospective what roads were open to Atari but not taken. Maybe, however slim the chance might be, the MD might have helped Atari set a foot back into the video game business, thanks also to the good software support from Japan. Maybe with a 16-Bit console having a stable market share they could have worked longer and had not rushed the Jaguar out.

Personally, with the Mega Drive being the console I am most attached to, I am glad it did not happen. While it did have a very successful life under Sega, who knows how it would have turned out under Atari´s leadership, without the image Sega managed to create for the system. Seeing how they managed to fail even with the Lynx, which I found out only last year is such an excellent handheld, I doubt they would have done much better with the MD.

Maybe it would have been called the Atari 15600 ?

The second comes from this article: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.05/history_pr.html

Michael Katz (president, Sega of America): In '88, when I was still at Atari, Hayao Nakayama and Dave Rosen brought us the Genesis. They asked if we wanted to license the product. At the time, we needed a next-generation system to take on Nintendo, and Genesis would've been perfect. But Jack Tramiel turned it down.

However I'm not sure if the those are exact quotes or if the author (Mike Dolan) is paraphrasing. The patently wrong statemtn implying Mortal Kombat was developed by Sega (not even the home port to the Genesis/MD was), doesn't make that author look too good. (if direct quotes or accurate paraphrasing, it would apply though, and I've seen statements matching many of Katz's other comments in similar interviews -some of which apear to have occured later, liek the one by Ken Horowitz on Sega-16.com)

Also, that quote about Jerry Jessop on the 7800 doesn't make too much sense. Regardless of that being one of the myths surrounding the 7800 (whether or not Jack ever did trhow a 7800 in frustration), the context given doesn't make sense, and indeed seems to imply the 7800 was developed by Atari enginners. (being a GCC design of course, delegated to Atari through Warner, which was a major snag on the 7800 contract when Atari Corp was formed, independent from Warner) Of course, many important detianls on the 7800 specifically have only come about within th elast year or so (soem in th elast few months) and such information should eventually be added to Atarimuseum's website.

Lynxpro, you're informaton may indeed be more accurate, or detailed, but could you point me toward where you found it out, or explain a little more if it's not an available resourse?

Edited March 8, 2010 by kool kitty89

Lynxpro · March 9, 2010

The controller dates back to 1990 I think, as part of the unfortunate Panther design. (thankfully abandoned)

The keypad could ahve been useful for a number of PC games needing added functions, but none really took advantage of this (doom is th ebest example, but something like X-wing would really have made use of it). However, cycling weapons/options and using button combinations instead of added keys could have made most of such games work fine with a sega saturn type layout or Jag Pro controller sans the keypad.

What gave you the idea of 6 fire buttons back in 1991/2, the SNES?

I was off on my dates. The Sacramento Atari Show was in March 1993, prior to the shareholders meeting that year when they first debuted the Jaguar's case design to us. EGM had written months before that the rumor was the controllers looked like a Cylon Raider, and that was accurate. Atari staff had the controllers plugged into the Falcon demoing - I believe - Road Riot and Steel Talons on the Falcon.

At that point, just about every fighting arcade game had 6 fire buttons. And so I asked Fulton if these were the controllers that would be in the next Atari console and after he hemmed about it, I said it needed 6 fire buttons and that's when he got dismissive about it and highlighting the numeric keyboard as more than enough buttons.

The genesis didn't get 6 buttons until 1993 with the release of Street Fighter II Special Champion Edition, so it's not that obvious all that long before the Jag was released... The 3DO opted to omit one of the SNES's buttons in favor of a sort of hybrid layout of arcing 3-buttons like the MD/Genesis pad and the SNES's shoulder buttons.

All true, but any system billing itself as the ultimate console should have the ultimate controllers to go along with it. The later Pro Controllers were awesome; they just should've been released first.

I already said much to this effect on the gamepad in response to wood_jl back in post 534, but one last thing in regards to Jack Tramiel: I'm not sure he would have scrapped the Jaguar, in fact, since he seemed to be much more capable at running the company than Sam, I'd bet the Jag would have been in much better shape, let alone the computer line (even if the ST had gotten pushed into a small, niche market -though if handeled properly, it maight have maintained popularity in Europe -PCs didn't become popular until the ST and Amiga were already declining, and both Atari and Commodore kind of screwed things up in the late 80s -commodore pretty much starting after Jack left, and same for Atari Corp). Makes one wonder how the ST;s later developments might have been handeled, or the Lynx for that matter, under Jack rather than Sam.
One intersign thought on the Jaguar, in context of the computer line is, while not very suitable to be converted into a personal computer istself, the Jag chipset could have made a great chipset for a graphics accelerator board. (probably omitting the sound and I/O portions, as well as the general CPU/host -with the computer's own CPU taking its place)

Everything that I've seen and read indicates Jack Tramiel did not care for video games. He's pretty dismissive of them from his tone at the Commodore 64 Anniversary Celebration/Conference that's up on YouTube.

Then again, had Ted Hoff remained in his position at Atari, the Jaguar most likely would've still been cancelled because he wanted Atari to become a games publisher, much like the current company that retains the Atari name is today. If John Marcotte is on this website, he can probably confirm that since he interviewed Ted Hoff for "The Jaguar's Edge" Magazine.

There are several jaguar threads mare soited to this topic, but the controllers are one of several issues related to a relase witht he console not being ready, a few months could have helped a lot, granted management itsself had problems. A lot of the issues were tied to limited funding though, the most likely reson for the half hearted pre-release in fall of '93 to drum up inversor intrest (which really should have reached Europe given Atari Corp's computer popularity there and their promise to include London and Paris in the test release). Digging into the Tramiels' private funds could have helped in that respect though, but that would have been riskier too and the Sega settlement didn't come through until mid 1994 I think.
It seems Sam was also nowhere near as capable at managing thins as his father had, including the computer line that steadily declined throughout the late 80s and early 90s. (and a number of mistakes made and somewhat odd decisions which contributed to this for Atari Corp)

I still feel Jack & Co. got lucky at Commodore. Had they not acquired MOS they never would've been the success they became.

Jack wouldn't have spent the Tramiel private funds on developing the Jaguar. If I recall from "The Home Computer Wars" he once scolded Sam for flying first class back in the early 80s when Sam was president of his own company.

Yep, but an 030 would have been fairly expensive; a 68EC020FG16(RP16 -PGA instead of QFP) would have been the cheapest option at the time, 16.7 MHz rated, so would have the same speed limitations as the 68k (the 25 MHz version used in the arccade would be more expensive, obviously) and though not clocked faster, would have the key features of a cache (albeit small) to greatly reduce activity on the main bus, 32-bit wide bus (also widenign Jerry to 32-bits), and somewhat more efficient per-cycle performance. The Jag was designed to accept X86, 68k, or MIPS CPUs, hence the R3000 on some CoJags, but the 16 MHz rated EC020 is the next cheapest option and a big step up from the 68k. (well, a 68010 would be the immediate step up, and while it would help things a little, it would be much worse than th 020 still in terms of bus usage as well as keeping the 16-bit width -and same for Jerry)

I brought up the 030 because Atari was already purchasing them for the TT and the Falcon. At some point, one would hope the economies-of-scale would kick in and there'd be some sort of discount when the majority of products being shipped by the company would be 030 based. But even an 020 would've been a step up from the 68000. It would've silenced a lot of the critics - EGM - that claimed the console was 16-bit [erroneously] because of the inclusion of that CPU.

Yo really should check out this thread though: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/119048-its-1993-youre-in-charge-of-the-jag-what-do-you-do/page__st__825

I will, thanks.

Hmm, a couple interviews with Katz didn't give me that impression, I'll try and find the specific quotes. (I seem to recall him mentioning SoJ representatives as well as Dave Rosen approaching Atari Corp with such a proposal)

I swear it was in whatever Antic/STart magazine it was that had the tidbit over Atari suing Micron over a dispute over DRAM prices allegedly because Micron violated an oral contract with Jack Tramiel. The blurb included mention of the ST Game System that never came to be. I think "Game Over" also mentions the Genesis fiasco with Atari Corp. not pursuing it. Again, had the machine been produced in Atari's factory, purchasing all of those 68000s could've further reduced the manufacturing costs of the STs.

I've never played the sit-doen version, but I've played the stand-up cabenet a fair bit at Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk in the retro/classic section of the arcade. I'm not sure about the sit-sown unit, but th eupright one uses a control yolk, not a stick and you rotate the handels foreward and backward to change the elevation of the crosshairs rather than pushing/pullling with a real flight yolk. So does the sit-down unit use a joystick instead?

The sit-down version has the same controller as the stand up version.

Lynxpro, you're informaton may indeed be more accurate, or detailed, but could you point me toward where you found it out, or explain a little more if it's not an available resourse?

I swear it was in "Game Over" by David Scheff (sic).

Edited March 9, 2010 by Lynxpro

Atari ST vs. Amiga

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