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philipj

What can the Jaguar Hardware Possibly Do?

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This YouTube of "Top Gear Rally" for the GBA popped up on my YouTube feed... The first thing I thought about was the mode 7 effect combined with the polygonal 3D models in the game. It looks as if they took a traditional tunnel based racing game method with the mode 7 scaling sprites. Imagine "Superburnout" on the Jaguar only instead motorcycle sprites, you have real texture mapped 3D polygon objects. Just throwing some ideas out there at the moment; it certainly worth putting out there where I think there some possibilities of something similar for the Atari Jaguar.

 

 

 

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I swear...we should just sticky one of the other thousands of similar threads so these don't get posted constantly. I'll throw you a bone, though. Take a look at what a fully texture mapped 3D racing game on the Jaguar is like:

 

 

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Wow - I thankfully forgot what a steaming turd that game was.  Who the hell thought it was ever acceptible to release a game with single digit frame rates?

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2 hours ago, Stephen said:

Wow - I thankfully forgot what a steaming turd that game was.  Who the hell thought it was ever acceptible to release a game with single digit frame rates?

I received Supercross 3D with a bundle of Jaguar games. When I first put the game in I thought, "There's no way this game is that bad."

 

Yeah, no. It's worse than I imagined. 

 

So is Checkered Flag. The first time I plugged it into my Jaguar I was certain that the controls couldn't be as bad as many have said. I give props to anyone who can find enjoyment in that game. 

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I swear...we should just sticky one of the other thousands of similar threads so these don't get posted constantly. I'll throw you a bone, though. Take a look at what a fully texture mapped 3D racing game on the Jaguar is like:

 

That game was probably rushed out of the door just like the Jaguar system was... It is a very early 90s game and probably one of the first to use polygonal 3D texture-mapping that old game is not a good example for texture mapping on the Atari Jaguar. "Skyhammer", on the other hand, is a much better example for 3D texture-mapping even though it's not a racing game. It shows that in the hands of a good artist, good texture-mapping can be pulled off. 

 

"Top Gear" for the GBA isn't just a 3D texture-map based game, it's an arcade style tunnel base racing game that uses mode 7 style effects similar to "Atari Karts" or "FZero for the SNES" where the only thing that's polygonal with texture maps are the vehicles... That means low polygon-count 3D objects with very minimal use of texture maps on them, which is something the Atari Jaguar can possibly pull off. "Checkered Flag" for example used the same 3D model vehicle with different color variation, but what help to slow the game down was the high polygon background environment as well as the 68000 AI taxing the system. I posted another game called "Slip Stream" arcade by "Capcom" that also uses a tunnel based pseudo 3D effect; imagine the car in that game polygonal with texture maps on it... If you can envision that then you get the idea of what I'm posting.

 

Also, on another note, I don't see anything wrong with staying enthused about getting ideas and putting them out there, but I guess if people are just plain tired the same old post, well to each is their own. However I wouldn't be into the whole Jaguar thing this long, but that's what gives definition to the phrase "Atari Jaguar Enthusiast", but I here you on the "Supercross 3D" game... It absolutely was a steam pile that probably never should've been released, but then again the "Sega 32X" had "Motorcross Championship" and it was almost as bad, however it did have some great background pseudo 3D (something the Jag can also pull off) effects and it played a tad bit better than Supercross 3D.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by philipj
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4 hours ago, Sauron said:

I swear...we should just sticky one of the other thousands of similar threads so these don't get posted constantly. I'll throw you a bone, though. Take a look at what a fully texture mapped 3D racing game on the Jaguar is like:

 

 

Though I disagree with your example, using the lowest common denominator rather than either I.S. or the Dactyl Joust vid posted earlier. I have no idea why such a long standing member would start a brand new thread for something that is regurgitated every 6 months. 

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16 minutes ago, JagChris said:

Though I disagree with your example, using the lowest common denominator rather than either I.S. or the Dactyl Joust vid posted earlier. I have no idea why such a long standing member would start a brand new thread for something that is regurgitated every 6 months. 

 

Are my post that bad...? It's been about 6 months since I even started a new post. I didn't see a problem in starting one on something we talk about anyway. I don't see the big deal.

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3 minutes ago, philipj said:

 

Are my post that bad...? It's been about 6 months since I even started a new post. I didn't see a problem in starting one on something we talk about anyway. I don't see the big deal.

I, for one, have no problem with your post. It might be similar to previous posts, but that's ok in my book. I'm always up for conversation. It beats going back (sometimes) and reading old listings. If something doesn't interest me,  or if a topic is about something I've already read, I just move on. Besides, your's is a hypothetical topic. It's not like asking how to fix something that's already been listed, step by step, time and time again. 

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7 hours ago, philipj said:

 

Are my post that bad...? It's been about 6 months since I even started a new post. I didn't see a problem in starting one on something we talk about anyway. I don't see the big deal.

This particular topic has been beaten to death over the years. There have been numerous threads about this same topic, and even many other threads have ended up veering into it. See this one as an example:

 

 

7 hours ago, JagChris said:

Though I disagree with your example, using the lowest common denominator rather than either I.S. or the Dactyl Joust vid posted earlier. I have no idea why such a long standing member would start a brand new thread for something that is regurgitated every 6 months. 

IS is pretty light on textures and Dactyl Joust is nothing more than a very short video. I wouldn't use it as a measuring stick of any sort. But you already know that.

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3 hours ago, Sauron said:

This particular topic has been beaten to death over the years. There have been numerous threads about this same topic, and even many other threads have ended up veering into it. See this one as an example:

 

 

IS is pretty light on textures and Dactyl Joust is nothing more than a very short video. I wouldn't use it as a measuring stick of any sort. But you already know that.

I have to disagree, Supercross is rubbish and does not really represent what might have been possible. I saw more capable 3D  for the ST, check "No second Prize". While this topic has been beaten to death it's still fascinating to read the same old (negative) bias.

Edited by agradeneu
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Perhaps the topic keeps being reborn because the answer is never fully realized. There's too much bitching and fighting and programmer dick-waving getting in the way of a definitive conclusion. 

 

To me the question really is this; given the proper resources of time and money, what is the most complex/advanced 3d game that could be realized on the Jaguar/CD? 

 

Unless that mythical game already exists (Battlesphere), the best way to discuss the topic IMHO, is to point to similar tech on 3do and PS1/Saturn. Tomb Raider was argued about alot, and I think the consensus is that no chance on the Jaguar. So, is there say, a PlayStation game that is the closest approximation of a theoretical 'ultimate' Jaguar game?

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1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

I have to disagree, Supercross is rubbish and does not really represent what might have been possible. I saw more capable 3D  for the ST, check "No second Prize". While this topic has been beaten to death it's still fascinating to read the same old (negative) bias.

 

There are plenty of Jaguar games that show 3D in much better terms too, namely Zero 5. However, that game is extremely light on texture mapping. The same applies to No Second Prize, which I played to death on the ST. The best looking texture mapped game, Skyhammer, has a low poly count and short draw distances. I think it's been pretty well established that acceptable 3D performance would have to be along the same lines of one of the existing showcase games for the Jag. What Supercross 3D proves in itself is that low poly counts simply aren't acceptable for racing games, so it serves as an adequate example.

 

IMO, racing games on the Jag are best served with superscaler sprites, a la Super Burnout. This game, as an example, is one I'd love to see done at some point:

 

 

Edited by Sauron
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There was another texture mapped racer:

 

 

I'd say that's about the best, tho the programmer did say he  could've got the frame rate a bit higher with more time to optimize it.

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25 minutes ago, Kobra Kai said:

Perhaps the topic keeps being reborn because the answer is never fully realized. There's too much bitching and fighting and programmer dick-waving getting in the way of a definitive conclusion. 

 

To me the question really is this; given the proper resources of time and money, what is the most complex/advanced 3d game that could be realized on the Jaguar/CD? 

 

Unless that mythical game already exists (Battlesphere), the best way to discuss the topic IMHO, is to point to similar tech on 3do and PS1/Saturn. Tomb Raider was argued about alot, and I think the consensus is that no chance on the Jaguar. So, is there say, a PlayStation game that is the closest approximation of a theoretical 'ultimate' Jaguar game?

Look at some GBA 3D games for reference. 

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16 minutes ago, pacman000 said:

There was another texture mapped racer:

 

 

I'd say that's about the best, tho the programmer did say he  could've got the frame rate a bit higher with more time to optimize it.

Not that thing again, it's slow and ugly for the most part. Slightly "faster" than SC but the frame rate is all over the place too.

Edited by agradeneu

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1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

Not that thing again, it's slow and ugly for the most part.

Yet still much better than Checkered Flag. 

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3 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Yet still much better than Checkered Flag. 

One of the main reasons the Jaguar failed were it's atrocious racing games. Instead of Iron Soldier, Eclipse should have made a racing game. 

Edited by agradeneu

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4 hours ago, Sauron said:

This particular topic has been beaten to death over the years. There have been numerous threads about this same topic, and even many other threads have ended up veering into it. See this one as an example:

That old topic haven't seemingly been touched in a while, but that particular topic probably would've been the better place to put post...

1 hour ago, agradeneu said:

I have to disagree, Supercross is rubbish and does not really represent what might have been possible. I saw more capable 3D  for the ST, check "No second Prize". While this topic has been beaten to death it's still fascinating to read the same old (negative) bias.

"No Second Prize" is very impressive "Atari ST" game... Very low polygon objects in fast real time response in game play.

7 minutes ago, Sauron said:

There are plenty of Jaguar games that show 3D in much better terms too, namely Zero 5. However, that game is extremely light on texture mapping. The same applies to No Second Prize, which I played to death on the ST. The best looking texture mapped game, Skyhammer, has a low poly count and short draw distances. I think it's been pretty well established that acceptable 3D performance would have to be along the same lines of one of the existing showcase games for the Jag. What Supercross 3D proves in itself is that low poly counts simply aren't acceptable for racing games, so it serves as an adequate example.

 

IMO, racing games on the Jag are best served with superscaler sprites. This game, as an example, is one I'd love to see done at some point:

Same here... I think "Power Drift" beat "Mario Kart" to the punch considering how the game was made... I think mode 7 style background would allow for more 3D polys theoretically where the vehicles won't look as bad. The cars in "Checkered Flag" had amount of polygons looked great for its time.

 

9 minutes ago, pacman000 said:

There was another texture mapped racer:

 

 

I'd say that's about the best, tho the programmer did say he  could've got the frame rate a bit higher with more time to optimize it.

 

I've never owned a CD unit for the Jaguar, but I was very impressed with what this game pulled off on the Jaguar... I'm talking about 3D polygon racing vehicles in a pseudo 3D environment like mode 7 or a tunnel style game like "Outrun". Here's an arcade game by "Konami" called "Racin' Force"; this game uses pre-rendered 3D sprite vehicles in a 3D voxel environment with little to no polygons. It looks like a tunnel game very "mode 7-ish" with some of the graphics. Very impressive stuff.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Sauron said:

 

There are plenty of Jaguar games that show 3D in much better terms too, namely Zero 5. However, that game is extremely light on texture mapping. The same applies to No Second Prize, which I played to death on the ST. The best looking texture mapped game, Skyhammer, has a low poly count and short draw distances. I think it's been pretty well established that acceptable 3D performance would have to be along the same lines of one of the existing showcase games for the Jag. What Supercross 3D proves in itself is that low poly counts simply aren't acceptable for racing games, so it serves as an adequate example.

 

IMO, racing games on the Jag are best served with superscaler sprites, a la Super Burnout. This game, as an example, is one I'd love to see done at some point:

 

 

I think low frame rates are not acceptable. A fast flat shaded polygon racer, like "No second prize" proves to be very effective. Now imagine a Jaguar version of that. ;-)

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19 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Yet still much better than Checkered Flag. 

CF has a much nicer look though. 25-30 FPS, controls that actually work and some less super stupid "AI" would have made it easily the best Jaguar racer.

They got better racing games out of the Super FX chip and the SVP, and both can't match the Jaguar. Same with the ST, some of it's 3D is extremely impressive considering it's low spec. CJs port of Stunt Car Racer puts both SC and CF to shame. Let's imagine someone ports "No second prize" to the Jaguar it would be easily the new Top Dog.

Edited by agradeneu
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Checkered Flag looked fine in screenshots when it was new, 25 years ago. Too bad about the framerate, controls, balance, price, sound, pacing, and features. Surely all this has been litigated before? Yet it keeps coming up. "What if my great-grandfather had put nitro rockets on his horse-drawn buggy, think how fast it could have gone!"

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People are obviously still keen to discuss this well established topic, so your going to see new threads pop up frequently. 

 

A few common sense guidelines could help maintain focus.

 

Showcase games should be based around commercially released titles (both ends of the spectrum, best and worse examples of the Jaguar hardware in use).

 

As it was pointed out earlier, WTR Engine had been optimised further and coder planned to use it in another 2 commercial titles and would of resulted in an improved frame rate, even if perhaps not a significant one.

 

 

We still don't have closure on just who was to blame for  insisting Supercross 3D:Leonard Tramiel or Tiertex bosses, so it's a little unfair to draw too many conclusions. 

 

 

Please, NO very early game footage, so many factors can impact a games final performance during development. 

 

AVP frame rate was lovely until the Jane Whittaker A.I routines were added.

 

There is so little playtime of Dactyl Joust, it's little more than a proof of concept demo.

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18 hours ago, Sauron said:

I swear...we should just sticky one of the other thousands of similar threads so these don't get posted constantly. I'll throw you a bone, though. Take a look at what a fully texture mapped 3D racing game on the Jaguar is like:

 

 

Well, it is not even fully texture mapped 3D, just the road and the grandstands, the cycles/objects are sprites. The frame rate tanks when there are too many sprites/Ai controlled riders on screen. Does not look like texture mapped polygons are the performance bottleneck. I would even say that there is a well regarded Jaguar game that renders higher numbers of texture mapped polygons at >3x the frame rate. 

Edited by agradeneu

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24 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

One of the main reasons the Jaguar failed were it's atrocious racing games. Instead of Iron Soldier, Eclipse should have made a racing game. 

I've said it countless times,but giving the Jaguar  Virtua Racing clone gig to a small and relatively inexperienced team, who approach you wanting to make a Dragons Vs Viking Longboats game for the Falcon, just sums up the Tramiels handling of the Jaguar perfectly. 

 

It's up there with getting 2 studios with no experience of making fighting games (HMS and Beyond Games)  responsible for your Mortal Kombat clones. 

 

 

But with such limited resources at their disposal (in no small part due to their own past mistakes),  Atari simply didn't have the options.

 

It's a radically different environment to say when Core Design tried their hand at a Xenon 2 style shooter (Frentic)  or Future Sports title like Speedball (project abandoned). 

 

When you have your commercial success riding on these titles, they simply have to deliver.

 

You can't just absorb the failure and move on.

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