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tripletopper

Different between European SCART and it's Japanese equivalent.

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From the perspective of an Amercian, I heard there are 2 formats that the average American can not distinguish unless trained in the secret.  They also unlock the most colorful pictures on SDTV.  I also want to broadcast it on twitch. 

 

1.  What is the name of the oft-confused Japanese SCART-like standard?

 

2.  How does an American, who usually never sees this standard, tell the difference visual, it do you have to go on blind faith?

 

3.  Is there some sort of EU/JPN tester that can answer that impericalky?

 

4.  If some converter between these standards, and is it a 2 was devicez must are there 2 different ones, one for each way?

 

5.  Someone told me a voltage pin was different?  First can one physically both types in the same hole? If one does the fit, but uses the wrong standard, are the consequences benign (see there's no picture and quit, or use adapter) or severe (one such misplug will permanently ruin your system) ?

 

6.  If I have NTSC RF, composite, S-Video, component and HDMI ins, and require 1 HDMI our and One VGA out, what is the best was to deal with SCART to guarantee it works and have minimal delay on the VGA path?

 

7.  Is it better to convert the non SCARTs to HDMI first THEN to VGA, or the other way?

Edited by tripletopper
Typo in title

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCART#JP-21

 

to go SCART -> JP21 (for the XRGB-mini for example)

https://retrogamingcables.co.uk/european-scart-to-japanese-scart-converter

(you don't need to convert between the 2 unless you buy a JP21 cable [usually only sold in Japan] or a unit that wants a JP21 input like the XRGB-mini)

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3 hours ago, tripletopper said:

1.  What is the name of the oft-confused Japanese SCART-like standard?

 

2.  How does an American, who usually never sees this standard, tell the difference visual, it do you have to go on blind faith?

 

3.  Is there some sort of EU/JPN tester that can answer that impericalky?

 

4.  If some converter between these standards, and is it a 2 was devicez must are there 2 different ones, one for each way?

 

5.  Someone told me a voltage pin was different?  First can one physically both types in the same hole? If one does the fit, but uses the wrong standard, are the consequences benign (see there's no picture and quit, or use adapter) or severe (one such misplug will permanently ruin your system) ?

 

6.  If I have NTSC RF, composite, S-Video, component and HDMI ins, and require 1 HDMI our and One VGA out, what is the best was to deal with SCART to guarantee it works and have minimal delay on the VGA path?

 

7.  Is it better to convert the non SCARTs to HDMI first THEN to VGA, or the other way?

1. It's usually referred as JP-21, but it's unlikely to be written anywhere on the cable or the device you use - European devices usually use "A/V out" or "RGB" or "Video Out"

 

2. As far as I know, it's strictly impossible. Like it would be impossible for anybody to tell the difference between an Atari joystick connector and an Odyssey² joystick connector.

 

3. There isn't, as far as I know. You could make one yourself by finding a SCART socket and wire two LEDS between where the 12V would be on the Euro and JP 21. Which LED lights up would tell you if the device output is Euro or JP21.

For input, you could use a SCART plug on which on only wire video composite. For Euro devices, there are tons of SCART to RCA converters such as this one :

41YLM83PxeL._AC_.jpg

If your device displays video and got audio with this adapter : it's an EURO SCART input.

 

4. There are, they usually are just passive adapters as it's a pinout difference and not a signal or voltage conversion. Again, think Odyssey2 controllers on an Atari : you only need to rewire the plug and you're set.

 

5. The issue with JP-21 is that one have a voltage pin where the other has color. Voltage is used on both SCART and JP-21 standard to force the television on A/V canal and allow/disable RGB display. Most televisions I've seen are protected so inserting a JP-21 cable into an EURO SCART doesn't do much, you just get the wrong colors. Now, one of the most famous RGB to HD converter from Japan have JP21 as input and I heard it does terrible things on it.

 

 

6. The issue with VGA is that you can convert RGB to VGA with no delay BUT only if your VGA device support 15 htz refresh. Some old Multisync display might do that, other won't. If it doesn't, you'll need a converter like the OSSC and you might as well use HDMI.

 

7. As a general rule, the less conversions there are, the better. Unless you're restricted to VGA, use HDMI; HDMI is digital so you'll have a delay here anyway.

 

Note that in practice, JP21 stuff is EXTREMELY rare, and I mean really extremely, so much that you have absolutely zero chances of running into a JP21 device in the wild, even in Japan.

 

Basically, if you buy something from Japan and it come with a SCART-looking input or plug, check with the seller if it's EURO SCART or JP21.

 

If it come from Europe then there's a 99,99% chance it's EURO SCART. And again the seller should know about it and warn you beforehand given how rare JP-21 is.

 

Edited by CatPix
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10 hours ago, CatPix said:

Note that in practice, JP21 stuff is EXTREMELY rare, and I mean really extremely, so much that you have absolutely zero chances of running into a JP21 device in the wild, even in Japan.

The increase of enthusiasts getting into RGB displays and scalers in the past decade having custom JP21 cables assembled for their setups probably doubled or tripled the number of JP21 cables that existed previously, and they're a marginal segment of the population to be sure. I don't envy anyone that later decides they want to sell off that stuff.

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Yes, the Framemeister Mini, and like you said most people just get a minidin to euroscart adapter made for it. The Framemeister's discontinued now (supposedly) and the gscart series of scart switches (which were the only other notable product that supported JP21 that I knew of) stopped being made in JP21 format a long while ago.

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19 hours ago, CatPix said:

 

 

6. The issue with VGA is that you can convert RGB to VGA with no delay BUT only if your VGA device support 15 htz refresh. Some old Multisync display might do that, other won't. If it doesn't, you'll need a converter like the OSSC and you might as well use HDMI.

 

 

My monitor is a Compaq FS740.  I can look in my instruction and tell you resolution/frame combos it CAN do.  You just need to tell me what is considered "acceptable matches" for various SCART systems.

 

As for a SCART vs JP21 tested, I have bought an Audio/composite/ SVideo extractor.  It hasn't come yet, but it has SCART in and SCART out, I assume I can use THAT as SCART tester.  At least I know the consequences of the wrong format error is benign.

 

And the main thing I'm trying to save ping time.  Does HDMI to VGA conversion time cost more than 8 ms, the "draw time" of a typical HDMI flat monitor, even TN ones?

 

In all these examples 1ms ping is considered insignificant for all games except light gun and Sega Scope games.  Any delay LONGER than 1ms I'd like to be aware of.  That's the degree of ping I'm looking to avoid.  I'm not nitpicking about microseconds.  If I want light gun games, I'll take the most direct route.

 

A   I easily see Composite/S-Video to VGA adapters with a processor box in the middle.

 

a. Should I assume you need the active one to convert Composite/S Video to VGA and passive to go the other way?  There are discrepencies that confuse me if I took blind faith in Ebay.

 

b. Less than 1ms?

 

HDMI to VGA, the whole point of this hookup is to save ping time of draw time.  1ms or less?

 

If I got these 2 things settled, then the only thing remaining are Component to VGA adapter.  And if SCART is better to convert to VGA directly,l vs to Component.  then I need either:

 

a. A 1 in 2 out SCART,  + one end to VGA the other to HDMI,

Or

B.  SCART to VGA, a 1 in 2 out VGA and a VGA to HDMI converter.

 

The HDMI path is more acceptable to have more ping on.  The important thing is that the VGA path is clear.

 

 

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13 hours ago, tripletopper said:

My monitor is a Compaq FS740.  I can look in my instruction and tell you resolution/frame combos it CAN do.  You just need to tell me what is considered "acceptable matches" for various SCART systems.

 

As for a SCART vs JP21 tested, I have bought an Audio/composite/ SVideo extractor.  It hasn't come yet, but it has SCART in and SCART out, I assume I can use THAT as SCART tester.  At least I know the consequences of the wrong format error is benign.

A composite/audio extractor to test is a great and simple idea :)

 

For any RGB analog system (either in SCART or JP21) you want your display to be able to support interlaced video @640*480 (for a NTSC system) or 640*576 (PAL/SECAM); interlaced video will be usually signalled with a vertical frequency of 15 khtz , as opposed to 30 kHtz for progressive display (standard VGA).

I glanced at your display specs on Internet and unfortunately (but not surprisingly) it doesn't appear to support interlaced video.

 

For delay, I can't help you at all. SCART was mandatory here so it's simply impossible to find a television, either CRT or LCD, that doesn't have RGB SCART input, as long as it was made between 1981 and 2018.

Edited by CatPix

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16 hours ago, phoenixdownita said:

http://15khz.wikidot.com/

 

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZvZycoKawBLtK_k7wNFXUwgMD9nMNRfTBbM8T57ZzUY/

(from http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=85693 )

 

If you have a solution for light gun games what's preventing you from using it for all of your twitch gaming needs?

The only REAL solution for light games is a short path with no processing and a TV with NTSC, Composite, S Video. and component, and splitting the path with a powered splitter and then process one path.

 

I do have a separate roomier downstairs area for gun games   I just need a few things set up for it.

 

I noticed the 1ms maximum present in a Hauppauge rocket, and HD games play no different.  You can't feel 1 Ms in gameplay.

 

I was planning in using a VGA CRT monitor, because I don't want a 3 display setup.  If a VGA CRT monitor had at most a 1ms delay.  The non-light gun games are perfectly fine.  A VCR never threw off my timing, and Hauppauge hasn't either.

 

but it throws off your aim crazy in light guns games.  Even an NTSC RF to Composite converter built into VHS and Beta VCRs throw off a few pixels to the right.  And gun games with calibration COULD compensate for VCR ping times.

 

I can feel the delay on a PS3DTV vs a CRT which was good at the time, but was not good enough.  But I can't feel a PS3DTV with a Hauppauge vs without one

 

All I need to know is if delay was good enough for non light gun / Sega Scope games. 1 Ms is a good ceiling to shoot for.

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1 minute ago, tripletopper said:

The only REAL solution for light games is a short path with no processing and a TV with NTSC, Composite, S Video. and component, and splitting the path with a powered splitter and then process one path.

 

I do have a separate roomier downstairs area for gun games   I just need a few things set up for it.

 

I noticed the 1ms maximum present in a Hauppauge rocket, and HD games play no different.  You can't feel 1 Ms in gameplay.

 

I was planning in using a VGA CRT monitor, because I don't want a 3 display setup.  If a VGA CRT monitor had at most a 1ms delay.  The non-light gun games are perfectly fine.  A VCR never threw off my timing, and Hauppauge hasn't either.

 

but it throws off your aim crazy in light guns games.  Even an NTSC RF to Composite converter built into VHS and Beta VCRs throw off a few pixels to the right.  And gun games with calibration COULD compensate for VCR ping times.

 

I can feel the delay on a PS3DTV vs a CRT which was good at the time, but was not good enough.  But I can't feel a PS3DTV with a Hauppauge vs without one

 

All I need to know is if delay was good enough for non light gun / Sega Scope games. 1 Ms is a good ceiling to shoot for.

Mainly I need some view blockers to block out a blurry basement.  And MAYBE? my cellular bandwidth is lower in the basement, and my maximum possible land based network is not defined as broadband by the 2010 definition.

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I've been living in Japan for almost 10 years now, and guess how many things I've seen that use JP21. That's right, one. The Framemeister. That's it. It doesn't exist, just like how SCART only exists in Europe. My Trinitron from 1999? RF, composite, D-terminal, and YCbCr. No JP21. Now that the Framemeister is discontinued and I have only ever seen that in a single store (they still have them there, I think), I'll never see it again unless I go to that one store before they sell out. Component actually exists and doesn't risk blowing up your $1000 RGB modded PC Engine LT like SCART does, so therefore, component > SCART/JP21.

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RGB is more common on most consoles than component, first, and second, the risk is ALWAYS on the input side (Framemeister or television) never on the output side.

So first, if you  spent 1000$ on a PC -Engine, especially if you're in Japan, then you're a fool, second, you can plug it all day and night on JP 21 devices and it will never blow since it's the PC-Engine that will send 9V/ 5V into the display device, never the opposite.

And I borked a few cable wiring and sent 12V straight into my SCART TV and it never affected them in any way shape or form.

I can't tell about FrameMeister/OSCC but TVs are protected.

 

Also  thanks for confirming that JP21 is non-existant in Japan.

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Voultar says you can fry your consoles, and I believe him. I'm just a stupid American and we don't have SCART in my country or here, so I'm not the guy to ask. Voultar actually used a SuperGrafx in his example.

 

Asking price for PC Engine LT is about $800 for a cheap functional one here, plus people like to do weird things to old systems like that and $100 works for an RGB mod, plus maybe tax depending on where you get your stuff, so $1000 works out. There's a reason I said LT, not a regular PC Engine.

 

https://auctions.yahoo.co.jp/search/search?auccat=&tab_ex=commerce&ei=utf-8&aq=-1&oq=&sc_i=&fr=auc_top&p=PCエンジンLT&x=0&y=0

 

Regular PC Engines are around 10,000 yen or so. I paid 12,800 yen for my CoreGrafx with a controller and PSU few months ago. They are getting expensive.

Edited by Steven Pendleton
fixed some stuff

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oh fair enough, I didn't see the LT. Though that gotta be the surpidest thing ever do do : for 30$ on eBay you can get a white PC-Engine.

And second,t here are external mods that have been around since the 90's to get RGB out of any PC-Engine so you do'nt need to mod it.

And I would like to see the rare case where you can fry your console by plugging an ACTIVE output on a PASSIVE input.

Yeah maybe my Italian mTV made in 1983 would do that because the engineers were lazy and wired a channel switch to 12V to force the TV into A/V mod if your system didn't do that. But guess what? I discovered it by wondering why my Gamecube and PS1 picture got all wobbly an weird when I put the TV on A/V. And I found out that my Atari 2600 Jr could be powered by the TV. And alos guess what? None of those system died despite taking 12V into their 5V circuitry.

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Yeah, I use SSDS3 + HD Retrovision + CRT or OSSC for my stock CoreGrafx and it works perfectly. I wanted a SuperGrafx, but I built a MiSTer last week and I am glad I didn't get a SuperGrafx because it's totally a waste of money. Anyway, I think we have derailed the thread a bit too much!

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6 hours ago, carlsson said:

So is the JP21 just as common in Japan as the EIA Multiport is in the USA?

Pretty much! Which means tripletopper can sleep tight focusing on SCART alone and forgetting about JP21 until/if he buys an XRGB-mini ... not even sure why he brought the JP21 up, or even the SCART.

Personally as already stated I have an XRGB-mini and bought a passive SCART->JP21 converter to which I added an LM1881 (as the AES was a bitch to sync, but even an SMS had shown issues with OutRun).

 

Low Pri:

I admit I have not added a resistor to the LM1881 output yet and so far the XRGB-mini has not blown out ... will do one of these days

https://ianstedman.wordpress.com/2016/07/06/synchronise-your-video-engines/

(I think that I can get away with just a single 75ohm series resistor and be happy, that alone would cut the potential 5V out to 2.5V removing any and all 3.3V concerns)

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I wouldn't even bother with the Framemeister now that the OSSC Pro has been announced, and since I do not have a Framemeister, I won't. OSSC Pro looks to be a total replacement for the Framemeister and also does everything the OSSC does. I imagine it's probably also going to be cheaper and isn't discontinued as of a few years ago because it doesn't exist yet. We'll see, though, since the OSSC is kind of annoying to set up perfectly and even then I still have not found any settings that eliminate the flicker on my 32X.

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