rensoup Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 Does anyone know of RMT tunes that demonstrate the use of 100+hz updates where there's a clear difference in sound quality compared to 50hz (I know there are some in the RMT songs folder) ? I'm finding with the few 100+hz tunes that I converted to SAPR then dmsc'LZSS that they don't seem to benefit from the higher update frequency. Basically I record the 100+hz RMT tune with Altirra (which only records at 50HZ) then play it back at 50hz and it sounds the same... I talked to Ivop a while back about it and he mentioned that it really helps for making drums sound more digital which makes sense and perhaps could explain that any other type of instrument doesn't really sound upgraded because 200hz updates just aren't enough to make a difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, rensoup said: I'm finding with the few 100+hz tunes that I converted to SAPR then dmsc'LZSS that they don't seem to benefit from the higher update frequency. Basically I record the 100+hz RMT tune with Altirra (which only records at 50HZ) then play it back at 50hz and it sounds the same... Seems you encountered a logical problem? Ofcourse ALTIRRA is recording in the system speed. The player is changing POKEY's registers two times in one frame. Quote I talked to Ivop a while back about it and he mentioned that it really helps for making drums sound more digital which makes sense and perhaps could explain that any other type of instrument doesn't really sound upgraded because 200hz updates just aren't enough to make a difference? As everything is updated faster, any Instrument get's a more "digitized" sounding. The 200 Hz Update is really adding deeper sounds to POKEY's sound registers. That's why drums sound much more punchy. There is already a distinguishable diference between 50 and 60 Hz. The problem with faster speed is that the envelope is also "4 times shorter" in replay time. So it would have been better to have just one channel played faster, particular for the drums. Edited February 7, 2020 by emkay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 1 hour ago, rensoup said: Does anyone know of RMT tunes that demonstrate the use of 100+hz updates where there's a clear difference in sound quality compared to 50hz (I know there are some in the RMT songs folder) ? I'm finding with the few 100+hz tunes that I converted to SAPR then dmsc'LZSS that they don't seem to benefit from the higher update frequency. Basically I record the 100+hz RMT tune with Altirra (which only records at 50HZ) then play it back at 50hz and it sounds the same... I talked to Ivop a while back about it and he mentioned that it really helps for making drums sound more digital which makes sense and perhaps could explain that any other type of instrument doesn't really sound upgraded because 200hz updates just aren't enough to make a difference? Let me check my notes - I have several 200Hz RMT tracks which are absolutely stunning via good hi-fi system. 100Hz RMT Examples: Thrust (rmt128\songs\thrust.rmt) 150Hz RMT Examples: Sunset on the Moon (rmt128\songs\sunset_on_the_moon.rmt) 200Hz RMT examples: Hightide (rmt128\songs\hightide.rmt) Deluxe Dream (rmt119\rmt119\songs\tatqoo\deluxe8ch.rmt) Ninja Starts School (rmt119\songs\tatqoo\ninjas.rmt) Forgotten Sounds (rmt119\songs\tatqoo\forgotten_low.rmt) I think the entire rmt119\songs\tatqoo\ is 200Hz 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 The thread puts thing to the foreground When I encountered RMT the 1st time. I had a lot ideas. Raster was still developing it, But I recognized quickly that my request won't find the feedback that it deserved. I did that tune back in 2003 , just to show that POKEY's generators could be programmed with additional FX. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mono Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 (edited) @emkay: Could you attach .rmt file? Edit: OK, I took it from ASMA. Edited February 7, 2020 by mono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted February 7, 2020 Share Posted February 7, 2020 "Perplexity" http://asma.atari.org/asmadb/search.php?play=5222 uses 100Hz updates - also most noticeable in the drums section. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted February 7, 2020 Author Share Posted February 7, 2020 3 hours ago, emkay said: Seems you encountered a logical problem? Ofcourse ALTIRRA is recording in the system speed. The player is changing POKEY's registers two times in one frame. hmm.. you're just rewording what I said... 3 hours ago, emkay said: As everything is updated faster, any Instrument get's a more "digitized" sounding. The 200 Hz Update is really adding deeper sounds to POKEY's sound registers. That's why drums sound much more punchy. There is already a distinguishable diference between 50 and 60 Hz. The problem with faster speed is that the envelope is also "4 times shorter" in replay time. So it would have been better to have just one channel played faster, particular for the drums. yes it gets more punchy but it's difficult to tell the difference on a regular speaker with Pokey. I remember Madmax tunes on the ST which did digi drums (at 200hz I think) and the difference was a lot clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted February 7, 2020 Author Share Posted February 7, 2020 2 hours ago, Stephen said: 200Hz RMT examples: Hightide (rmt128\songs\hightide.rmt) Deluxe Dream (rmt119\rmt119\songs\tatqoo\deluxe8ch.rmt) Ninja Starts School (rmt119\songs\tatqoo\ninjas.rmt) Forgotten Sounds (rmt119\songs\tatqoo\forgotten_low.rmt) I think the entire rmt119\songs\tatqoo\ is 200Hz unfortunately these are all stereo I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted February 7, 2020 Author Share Posted February 7, 2020 39 minutes ago, Irgendwer said: "Perplexity" http://asma.atari.org/asmadb/search.php?play=5222 uses 100Hz updates - also most noticeable in the drums section. well it's audible indeed (especially on that weird sound at the beginning) but the cost/benefit is crazy... I've included the 50hz version and the RMT one (seems to be 150hz ?) perplexity_50hzLZSS.obx perplexity_RMT.obx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted February 8, 2020 Share Posted February 8, 2020 20 hours ago, rensoup said: (seems to be 150hz ?) Yes, you are right. I remembered that incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted February 8, 2020 Author Share Posted February 8, 2020 So I've not heard a tune that would convince me it's worth going for a higher frequency... I can hear improved bass sometimes but on a regular speaker at least, you really must be paying attention to notice. I was considering 100hz for SFX in PoP but it doesn't seem to be worth the hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Stephen Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 6 hours ago, rensoup said: So I've not heard a tune that would convince me it's worth going for a higher frequency... I can hear improved bass sometimes but on a regular speaker at least, you really must be paying attention to notice. I was considering 100hz for SFX in PoP but it doesn't seem to be worth the hassle. The 200Hz tones I posted say otherwise and not just because they are in stereo.It's hard to believe the tunes are coming from a 1979 machine. I do have my Ataris hooked up to some pretty large gear, but honestly, the quality is insane. It would of course not be worth it to try to squeeze that into a game, but for title screens or just listening to, why not dedicate as many cycles to improving the sound as needed? Why are you not interested in the stereo tracks? Apologies for the mess - was still moving in stuff at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emkay Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 11 hours ago, rensoup said: So I've not heard a tune that would convince me it's worth going for a higher frequency... I can hear improved bass sometimes but on a regular speaker at least, you really must be paying attention to notice. I was considering 100hz for SFX in PoP but it doesn't seem to be worth the hassle. What type of FX were you searching for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irgendwer Posted February 9, 2020 Share Posted February 9, 2020 1 hour ago, emkay said: What type of FX were you searching for? https://atariage.com/forums/topic/298914-unicorns-season-prince-of-persia-for-the-a8/?do=findComment&comment=4439170 Providing FX-sounds with a "sample-like" character like you did here: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/263812-screwing-with-pirates/?do=findComment&comment=3795456 could be beneficial... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 9 hours ago, Stephen said: The 200Hz tones I posted say otherwise and not just because they are in stereo.It's hard to believe the tunes are coming from a 1979 machine. I do have my Ataris hooked up to some pretty large gear, but honestly, the quality is insane. It would of course not be worth it to try to squeeze that into a game, but for title screens or just listening to, why not dedicate as many cycles to improving the sound as needed? Why are you not interested in the stereo tracks? Stereo makes a much bigger difference from the few tunes I heard but it's not stock. A stereo tune would potentially require twice as much space as well as twice the CPU time so it's complicated to justify when I'm already struggling for memory and disk space (while a 100hz tune would require twice the CPU time but probably a lot less space and would work on stock machines but the difference isn't nearly as big) So far I've not had proof the more hz alone make a good difference... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rensoup Posted February 9, 2020 Author Share Posted February 9, 2020 3 hours ago, Irgendwer said: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/298914-unicorns-season-prince-of-persia-for-the-a8/?do=findComment&comment=4439170 Providing FX-sounds with a "sample-like" character like you did here: https://atariage.com/forums/topic/263812-screwing-with-pirates/?do=findComment&comment=3795456 could be beneficial... interesting sounds indeed... at 50hz too. Miker's done most of the SFX already and they're fitting except for when the player gets hit (on the C64 there's a muffled "OMMF" ) and when a falling tile hits the ground... I don't know if something similar is doable on the A8 (as far as I know the SFX aren't sampled on C64) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.