Generator 2 in POKEY tunes... them "hum" thread ;)

[emkay]

Normally I don't like the use of generator 2 in POKEY tunes. Used for bass tones it could sound really horrible.

But the resolution is far better than using generator "C" or "E" in RMT. So it can be used as an higher pitched overlay to the basses...

Also it can be useful , if voice cancelling has to be avoided. It also adds some "room" sound, if played in a chord to the "singing" voice.

 

 

 

[Justin Payne]

Sounds kind of "industrial".

[emkay]

35 minutes ago, Justin Payne said:

Sounds kind of "industrial".

It's the nature of the produced sounds. 

To me the main goal is to have the "original" Touch available.

Particular using PAL , one VBI speed and one POKEY .  

[emkay]

Interesting (again) that YouTube claims rights on that video, as it sounds too "original".

 

btw. "original"....

 

 

Does this sound innocent enough (as the original) ?

 

 

 

[Justin Payne]

The irony is that this was probably detected using some algorithm but it's just too digital for it to detect the difference. The good news is that it's a clear sign that AI isn't near sentience yet...unless the AI is playing dumb and trying to fool us. ?

[+DjayBee]

Why don't you just upload the A8 program to generate the sound? 

[pps]

20 hours ago, DjayBee said:

Why don't you just upload the A8 program to generate the sound? 

Emkay is using the Raster Music Tracker. No magic to find... 

[emkay]

22 hours ago, Justin Payne said:

The irony is that this was probably detected using some algorithm but it's just too digital for it to detect the difference. The good news is that it's a clear sign that AI isn't near sentience yet...unless the AI is playing dumb and trying to fool us. ?

 

The "AI" isn't searching for the original content. It is searching for the "key" of a tune. And this does make sense.

 

On the other hand , it is a clear position, to find the solution to have "POKEY sounds" hitting the right "Key" of real music.

Only after it is  assured to have the right key for "real music" available, you could do new and original POKEY tunes that fit to the "Key" of real music, and weren't just POKEY tunes.

Sounds weird, huh ? 

 

 

 

 

[+DjayBee]

2 hours ago, pps said:

Emkay is using the Raster Music Tracker. No magic to find... 

Yeah, but RMT does not play the tune just by itself...

[ivop]

1 hour ago, emkay said:

The "AI" isn't searching for the original content. It is searching for the "key" of a tune. And this does make sense.

Actually, it does not search for the key of a tune. If it was, I could simply transpose up or down and it wouldn't detect the song. It is looking at relative changes in the frequency domain.

[emkay]

1 minute ago, ivop said:

Actually, it does not search for the key of a tune. If it was, I could simply transpose up or down and it wouldn't detect the song. It is looking at relative changes in the frequency domain.

Which is only working if the Key is correct. Actually most POKEY tunes suffer from the use of the "relative change in the frequency domain" . Using some trickery helps to compensate the problem. But most POKEY tunes were build to create every chord to sound shifted. Making the 8 bit problem more obvious.

Well, I know that there are "great musicians" on the Atari that claim the "Call Me" tune may sound out of tune. But it is key correct.

And then there is the question: If the tune is key correct, and the relative change between the notes is correct, why do they think it is out of tune? 

[ivop]

13 minutes ago, emkay said:

Which is only working if the Key is correct.

This might be a language problem, but relative changes have nothing to do with the key of the tune.

Example (first four notes of Are You Sleeping/Vader Jacob/Frère Jacques/Meister Jakob):

 

In the key of C :

 

C D E C

 

In the key of D :

 

D E F# D

 

The relative changes are the same:

 

I II III I

 

0 +1 +1 -2

 

 

 

 

[emkay]

36 minutes ago, ivop said:

This might be a language problem, but relative changes have nothing to do with the key of the tune.

Example (first four notes of Are You Sleeping/Vader Jacob/Frère Jacques/Meister Jakob):

 

In the key of C :

 

C D E C

 

In the key of D :

 

D E F# D

 

The relative changes are the same:

 

I II III I

 

0 +1 +1 -2

 

 

 

 

Seems, it is not a language problem. Using POKEY, the relative change of notes does not work that way when using 8 bit resolution. The distance of notes isn't correct enough then.

[Irgendwer]

2 hours ago, emkay said:

Using POKEY, the relative change of notes does not work that way when using 8 bit resolution. The distance of notes isn't correct enough then.

The AI works nevertheless because it has something which you lack:

Tolerance

Edited February 24, 2020 by Irgendwer

[R0ger]

I think emkay shows great tolerance for out-of-tune tunes.

[Marius]

It's an interesting discussion though. Another thread brought me here.

 

The AI in YouTube has simply one goal and that is detecting copyright infringement so the original artist can claim money. It is in no way a prove that what is heard, is in tune or key. That is a wrong redenation although I can understand. 

 

I have made a karaoke version of All of me for my music students in school. It only plays some chords (chords, even the order of chords are never bound to be copyrighted) but in combination with the title it is still marked with a copyright stamp from the UI from YouTube. Not even a melody is heard in my tune.

 

Now back to the subject. I actually am a professional musician with a high degree from the Rotterdam Conservatory Codarts, so I may shine some light on this subject from a musician's perspective. 

 

The discussion is about intonation. When I play piano and my piano is in tune an A 440hz sounds always as A 440hz. Even when in the score of the music is a Bbb (Hbb in German) which is on the piano the same key, I hear an A 440hz.

 

Tones do have a different harmonic function though. In an F major chord the A tone is the third while in a D major chord the A tone is the fifth. When I play the violin I have all kind of possibilities to alter the frequency of this A to fit best in the scale or harmonics. Just with 2 part singing. The voices do have to do some intonation to sound right together. So even when you put 2 singers together who sing their own part in a perfect pitch but they do  not hear each other it might not sound as pleasant when you put their voices together afterwards compared to the result of them singing next to each other, hearing and listening to each other and intonate their singing. A piano is a compromise tuning called the equal temperature. This means that what you hear sounds quite ok, very ok to my ears but is from a physical point of view a non natural and constructed way of sound.

 

Now back to pokey. I can stand pokey sound very well although it is out of tune many times. Especially in certain pitches (both bass and descant). I see it like the singing of untrained children voices. Yes you hear that they sing twinkle twinkle little star, and if you would let someone (or an AI) transcribe the notes it would go great. But if you analysed their singing on accuracy in frequencies (with a more trained ear you do not need any tool) you'll see that there is quite some wrong. Somebody already mentioned tolerance.

 

Personally I like your tune/arrangement. I know of the limitations of pokey and sometimes I even embrace the non-tuned sound (Especially in the Overmind demo tune#1 starting directly after the thunder and lightning screen). Also in the saxophone and brass section in one of Amy Winehouse's Valerie you can hear some out-of-tune chords which I find charming (although there is discussion about this, some professional musicians think this is lack of respect for music and it always should be in tune).

 

And do not discuss further. Your arrangement lacks all kind of intonation and is here and there out of tune. It is a fact. And since the sounds do not melt together as they do in the overmind demo this makes the "ouch-it-is-not-in-tune-experience" even worse (also because of a relative large distant between bass and melody).

 

The question though is: is it a real problem? I wouldn't qualify pokey as a serious competitor in the music scene (although I love pokey, and Iirc there are even real music projects where pokey was used). It's an 8bit computer multipurpose chip which can also do a very nice part of sound. But come on... it is not a stradivarius violin or a steinway piano. 

 

Musicians on a8 like Miker know exactly what tones to use to make the music sound as pleasant as possible. I am 100% sure they did  not use some tones sometimes because it was too much out of tune; so they picked another tone... perhaps not always the tone of their first choice from a musician's point of view but the first choice from the perspective of the limitations of the chip.

 

Last but not least: not all original songs are equally suitable for a pokey arrangement. Some do extremely well (like the Englishman in new York in the 2048 game) and some don't. Best songs are originals on pokey. 

 

Let's not tell each other that they are deaf or something like those disqualifications. It's of no use since music enjoyment goes way further than hitting the right notes. If people were only allowed to make perfect music I could stop with my work as well. I love to sing, but I am not a professional singer and at least 1% of the notes I sing are not on the most accurate pitch. Should I mute because of that. NO!

 

My pupils in music class LOVE music. They sing, play on all kind of instruments. Does it sound nice and on the right pitch all the time? No! Do they enjoy music? Yes! Do their audiences enjoy their music? Yes! 

 

If I remember correctly in the game 3plex emkay did the music. I have to add here that that 3plex music is excellent. I love that tune and it works very well on pokey and in the game. And it does sound pretty well in tune either. Good job emkay!

 

I want to encourage emkay to experiment as much as possible with his music projects. To my ears he has most certainly a kind of musical talent for this. 

 

My All of me Boomwhackers arrangement:

 

Amy Winehouse's Valerie with the out of tune sax section. 

 

Oh and here is that pretty cool emkay-song in 3plex. Very nice and pretty respectful to right pitches. I like it. 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2020 by Marius

[twh/f2]

12 hours ago, R0ger said:

I think emkay shows great tolerance for out-of-tune tunes.

Yeah R0ger, I fully agree - Emkay is in his own champions league of "out-of-tune songs". 

On the other side, that song just get's in-tune after some horrible first 30 seconds :

 

 

This is probably the first "Emkay Convertible (tm)" that's kind of "hearable". But maybe only because I really adore the "Still Alive" song. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Still_Alive

 

 

[emkay]

18 hours ago, R0ger said:

I think emkay shows great tolerance for out-of-tune tunes.

 

I never was able to stand your "tune" , so you're the master.

[emkay]

Only car engine sounds for gen2 used .... but it's still 4 channel....

 

 

[+Stephen]

10 hours ago, emkay said:

Only car engine sounds for gen2 used .... but it's still 4 channel....

 

 

This piece of downright cool.  Very industrial sounding.  I am seeing a a great title screen for a driving game.  The "bendy" parts at 2:08 I really like.  The only thing that sounded a bit out of place for me, was the very quick few notes at 22 to 24 seconds.  But on repeated listens, it sort of reminded me of a "death sound" in a game.

 

This one is definitely a keeper.

[emkay]

hm...

I wonder what it is exactly that reminds you of "Industrial" . I don't see "Industrial" as something bad, but I love it when a POKEY tune doesn't try to turn the ears 180 degrees, if you understand.

 

There is a lot unclear in definitions, as particular this tunes were build on frequency ranges that keep the pitch more correct, and some people claim to hear "heavy out of tune" stuff. 

The difference between the "Blondie" tune and the last one is that it was possible to have the lead voice played at a higher range, because the "original Music" isn't that sharp with correct notes. 

 

 

[+Stephen]

I did not mean industrial in a bad way.  It was more the genre of the music, not the sound of the instrumentation.  Heavy metal is different here - I think more of a Ramstein Du Hast song.  Makes you want to drive fast, slam dance in a pit!

[emkay]

Hm... Industrial. Thinking of THE industrial product and some aimed game to have for the Atari. I had some idea

 

Mixing the "Terminator" with the "Wolfenstein style" in Project-M

 

 

 

[emkay]

 

 

hum ....