chevymad Posted May 4, 2020 Author Share Posted May 4, 2020 Ok, ran the chipset through the XEL. The Pokey I was using has SIO issues now as well. It does work, just not every time. So I swapped it into the right pokey position and seems to be ok there. Marked that one so I don't try that chip again in a left position. On a semi related note, the PokeyOne I ordered on April 5 finally came yesterday. USPS somehow got lost in Florida. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 6 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: You can build the resistor network from resistors old school and easy. Why would you try to run int without the RN, replicating the problems you already had? RN2 is a SIP bussed resistor array, so using individual resistors to replace it would have been very wonky. Now if it had instead been RN1 which is DIP isolated resister array, then individual resistors would have worked out great . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 (edited) ? easy enough either way... http://www.interfacebus.com/resistor-network-schematic-bused-resistors-sip.html http://www.interfacebus.com/resistor-network-schematic-isolated-resistors-sip.html or some serious fun http://www.interfacebus.com/resistor-network-schematic-14pin-dip.html Edited May 4, 2020 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 2 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: ? easy enough either way... I'm not saying it wouldn't be easy, it just wouldn't look all that pretty in my opinion. Whereas the DIP package lends itself to the substitution of individual resistors in a much nicer, neater way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 of course it does, but troubleshooting and repair can continue until the pretty and better parts arrive. Rather than experiments into who knows what going on during the wait time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 8 hours ago, chevymad said: On a semi related note, the PokeyOne I ordered on April 5 finally came yesterday. USPS somehow got lost in Florida. Just beware that PokeyOne won’t work as a left POKEY. It does audio only, no keyboard or SIO functionality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted May 4, 2020 Author Share Posted May 4, 2020 Ya, I ordered PokeyOne to use as the XLD's right pokey. Since I had only 1 real pokey left. The semi functional one will be the xel's right pokey from now on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted May 9, 2020 Author Share Posted May 9, 2020 On 4/26/2020 at 12:06 PM, mytek said: So I'm assuming you hopped into self test and ran the sound check from there. If all 4 voices appear to be working correctly that's a good sign that Data, Address, R/W, CLK (B02), and /CS0 & CS1 are all connected and reliable. Not sure off the top of my head if /IRQ is involved with the sound test. Maybe someone in the know can chime in on that. No need to take it farther, since that rules out a good majority of the system connections to Pokey. Just need to verify if /IRQ is involved with the sound test. Let's see if we can get the keyboard working without CTRL, SHIFT, or BREAK so you can at least verify that standard keys work and make it easier to write some BASIC for testing. Remove Pokey from the socket and slightly bend out pin 16 (KR2) and put it back in the socket. Temporarily tie pin 16 to +5V (pin 17 on Pokey). Now power back up and if all goes well normal keys should work. Ok.. guess what? Recieved the RN this morning and installed. Board boots up.. and it acts just like the old one before I messed it up. It attempts sio and then boot errors repeatedly. Cartridge doesn't work. And keyboard still types control characters. I pulled pin 16, tied it to pin 17 and it doesn't change. All removeable chips that interchange with my XEL have been run through the XEL. In fact this is my XEL set that is in it. Can't be my soldering this time, or odds are the problem would be different. Something wrong with a socket maybe? I reused all except the 40pin sockets which weren't saveable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 27 minutes ago, chevymad said: Recieved the RN this morning and installed. Board boots up.. and it acts just like the old one before I messed it up. Ok not all bad. Now that you are back to where things were before you started messing with the resistor network how about try what I suggested a while back, and that you also quoted above... Quote Let's see if we can get the keyboard working without CTRL, SHIFT, or BREAK so you can at least verify that standard keys work and make it easier to write some BASIC for testing. Remove Pokey from the socket and slightly bend out pin 16 (KR2) and put it back in the socket. Temporarily tie pin 16 to +5V (pin 17 on Pokey). Now power back up and if all goes well normal keys should work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted May 9, 2020 Author Share Posted May 9, 2020 (edited) Ya, I think I just said below the quote that I did try it. And that it acts exactly the same. Sorry, this sounds rude even from here. Just slightly frustrating. But yes, I tried that and it doesn't change function. alt/f2 still prints gibberish as well. Btw, did you know if you press alt/f2 while in keyboard test mode it will quickly type the whole thing on the screen keyboard? lol Edited May 9, 2020 by chevymad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted May 9, 2020 Author Share Posted May 9, 2020 34 minutes ago, chevymad said: I pulled pin 16, tied it to pin 17 and it doesn't change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StickJock Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 Check D7 coming out of the Pokey. If this data line is intermittent, it could look like the Pokey is reporting the Control key being held on your key strokes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted May 9, 2020 Author Share Posted May 9, 2020 Another curious tidbit. Typing on the atari keyboard test has very few errors compared to typing in basic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 7 hours ago, chevymad said: Ya, I think I just said below the quote that I did try it. And that it acts exactly the same. I missed that. Based on that I really don't have an explanation for what you are seeing or why, nor do I have any more suggestions as to what to look for, and/or try. As you can probably imagine doing remote troubleshooting is not easy. Hopefully someone else can shine a better light on the situation. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 (edited) replace the resistor networks with new ones, don't over heat during soldering of any components. replace hct74 (u6) replace hct4053(u19) double check 16f1147(u20) replace if needed. check continuity while these components are out during replacement. make sure jumpers are in place for any daughter boards that are not installed! the keyscan is a timing sensitive process, and while it might not seem clear, these components are involved. The other issue being a memory or timing issue has already been touched in conversation. with this being said ... the next step is to get together with a tech or ship it to someone with fresh eyes... Edited May 10, 2020 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 11 hours ago, _The Doctor__ said: replace the resistor networks with new ones, don't over heat during soldering of any components. replace hct74 (u6) replace hct4053(u19) double check 16f1147 PIC16F1847(u20) replace if needed. check continuity while these components are out during replacement. make sure jumpers are in place for any daughter boards that are not installed! the keyscan is a timing sensitive process, and while it might not seem clear, these components are involved. The other issue being a memory or timing issue has already been touched in conversation. with this being said ... the next step is to get together with a tech or ship it to someone with fresh eyes... I made a small correction to the part number shown for U20 (I hope you don't mind). And just for clarity: U6 only affects the video color, and only if you are in PAL mode. U19 only affects audio and video color switching (in either PAL or NTSC). Neither one of these chips has anything to do with the key scan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 12 hours ago, mytek said: I missed that. Based on that I really don't have an explanation for what you are seeing or why, nor do I have any more suggestions as to what to look for, and/or try. As you can probably imagine doing remote troubleshooting is not easy. Hopefully someone else can shine a better light on the situation. I know exactly what you mean by remote troubleshooting. Been an auto tech for 27 years, remote friends always want a diagnosis over the internet. Get lucky you're a god, otherwise an idiot. Thanks for the help. Has to be something common between the 2 boards, and not related to swappable chips between the xel, my 800xl, and the xld. So that at least helps limit it some. There's also something flaky going on with cartridge slot. A couple of boots i've gotten green screen, insert star raiders and remove, then board will boot again. I don't find anything loose in the slot. Hesitant to go removing things again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 (edited) My theory is that a seemingly unrelated but associated circuit and a directly related circuit are both involved, and since it's both boards acting up, unless there is an exact same mistake... I'm left with whatever is causing it appears to be down to something that could affect timing... as we are told it's not the u1m... I'd select different memory configs to see if anything changes just the same... Edited May 10, 2020 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mytek Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 29 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said: My theory is that a seemingly unrelated but associated circuit and a directly related circuit are both involved, and since it's both boards acting up, unless there is an exact same mistake... I'm left with whatever is causing it appears to be down to something that could affect timing... as we are told it's not the u1m... I'd select different memory configs to see if anything changes just the same... But as I pointed out U6 and U19 have absolutely nothing to do with the key scan aspect what-so-ever. There is no association to the key scan circuits, or the PS/2 conversion to key scan in those two chips. And neither one has anything to do with the timing of the overall system, so no indirect influence could be exerted either. I also don't recall there being two boards acting up. My impression was that another working board (XEL) was being used for a parts donor to swap ICs into the XLD without success. Maybe I missed something once again. Anyway I'm out of here . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_The Doctor__ Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 (edited) As I understood it the problem is on original board and rebuild board, but I mess up plenty these days. The pic could be at fault directly, or other un-associated chips on the board could be acting as shorts draws or spurious generators... since I keep hearing that everything is good, but it doesn't work.... it can't hurt to try another direction. Although we've been down similar roads and it turns out the first suggestion of a bad pokey or otherwise ends up being the case at the end of a long thread, ending with an oops it was sort of working, you guys were right... at the final post. How about this idea... @mytekwhat can he pull that will allow the system to still run, and then add back one chips at a time till it fails... I mean this is a real long distance long shot no touch attempt to fix the thing... Edited May 10, 2020 by _The Doctor__ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 Yes, same problem on 2 different boards. 3 sets of atari chips + both sets of XEL/XLD specific chips and 2 different U1MB. New board used original components, other then 40pin sockets, U15 socket, IDE header, and rn2. Jumpers are on the No vbxe header and ntsc header. Other jumpers required? Of 4 pokey's tried one fails SIO function on the XEL now. The other 3 seem to work fine. TKII chip works fine in XEL. Earlier pics of black board are of the current board. I went through the color coding of all resistors when doing the board swap. Could an incorrect capacitor cause this? I'll need to see if I can verify them, much harder to read. I'm currently only using left pokey and no S2 module. Tried booting star raiders without any IO boards also Sdrive with no IO boards, same problems(cant test keyboard this way obviously). Any U1mb settings that can cause the cartridge or sio to not work? Although both work fine when plugged into xel. Does L2 have polarity? Everything I've read says not, but mine is in opposite from Mytek's picture. If it was a soldering problem, I wouldn't expect both boards to have same issue. That leaves settings or hardware component. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 20 minutes ago, chevymad said: Any U1mb settings that can cause the cartridge or sio to not work? Although both work fine when plugged into xel. Jon's current firmware lets you disable the cartridge ROM, so possibly. Have you tried the Ultimate 1MB in your XEL? The XEL and XLD versions of the firmware are the same, aside from the branding, as I understand it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 Yes, both U1MB work in the XEL. Well, I've found something!! If I pull U25 from the board, keyboard and SIO work fine! However, cart still doesn't work, but maybe that's the U1mb setting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DrVenkman Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 14 minutes ago, chevymad said: If I pull U25 from the board, keyboard and SIO work fine! Do you have a spare 74F138? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevymad Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 Thought I did.. but they're F08s, and it appears that the xel doesn't use the 74f138 but a HCT138 instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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